Ohio Law Schools Forum

[homestyle28]

[quote="Patriot1208" For a capital grad, 99% of them can only hope for a mediocre career.[/quote]

I like the presumption here as if there were no good reason for a person to choose Capital. Not everyone can move, or wants to attend LS full time, etc. Like I said above I almost chose Capital over NU, I met a number of students at Capital who CHOSE it over tOSU. Plenty of students at many TTTT are bright and hardworking...before you get all indignant about someone's argument you should check you own assumptions.

HTH

[Patriot1208]

[quote="Patriot1208" For a capital grad, 99% of them can only hope for a mediocre career.

I like the presumption here as if there were no good reason for a person to choose Capital. Not everyone can move, or wants to attend LS full time, etc. Like I said above I almost chose Capital over NU, I met a number of students at Capital who CHOSE it over tOSU. Plenty of students at many TTTT are bright and hardworking...before you get all indignant about someone's argument you should check you own assumptions.

HTH[/quote]

Your arguments are clearly based on emotion and not logic. If you absolutely cannot move, then you shouldn't attend law school, or go to capital with a full ride. The fact of the matter is that the students at this school and those like it are not comparably doing well in the job market and most have, at best, proven to be mediocre in the areas that at least somewhat predict future success.

[Doritos]

If you are contemplating Capital, or Ohio Northern, or Toledo, or Cleveland-Marshall you need to have realistic expectations of the type of job you are going have. I know people @ Ohio State who are struggling so keep that in mind. Here is the cost breakdown per year

Capital 31,000
Ohio Northern 31,000
Cleveland State 16,500 (instate) 23,000 (out of state)
Toledo 19,800 (instate) 30,500 (out of state)

This does not include cost of living which is going to run you probably 20k or so per year. Keep in mind you ain't doin' big law unless you are top of the class or have serious connections. It's your life and your choice just make sure you are informed.

http://law.utoledo.edu/Tuition.pdf
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... tems/03124
http://www.law.onu.edu/admissions/tuitionfinaid.html
http://www.law.capital.edu/About/LawSch ... kFacts.asp

[thexfactor]

i know a decent amount about case western. if anyone wants more info pm me.

[Rawlsian]

he likelihood of another capital grad becoming the secretary of state of ohio is probably less than 1%

Check your facts chief. In Ohio, the AG is elected and I can assure you that the last thing Ohio voters care about is what law school AG candidates attended. It is nothing more than a partisan referendum. The dumbest student at the shittiest law school may very well make the most successful politician.

Check my facts? There are facts about that? Don't be stupid. You are presupposing the argument you are making and telling me to check my facts. Also, the attorney general is not the same thing as the secretary of state, HTH.

Lastly, as someone from Ohio, believe me, they may not care if you went to Harvard but people are more savvy in most areas of the state then you think. Obviously, you do not understand how politics work because it's not just as if anyone can run, you have to make the inroads in the political spectrum before you can leave it up to the people. And it is EXTREMELY unlikely for someone of average intelligence and career achievements to do that in this day and age. For a capital grad, 99% of them can only hope for a mediocre career.

You're right: you absolutely have to make inroads; but Ohio politics are insular*. E.g., every Ohio Supreme Court justice went to an Ohio School: 1 Ohio Northern, 2 Cleveland-Marshall, 2 OSU, 1 Toledo. Appellate judges have similar educational backgrounds with a lot of Capital alums thrown in...

You can have a great career from Ohio Northern/Akron/Capital/Cleveland Marshall. I concur with some of the above sentiment: the city you desire to practice in should obviously inform your decision. I usually hedge though, because OSU is cheaper (or comparable), will give you an early career boost, and a 163 should be in reach with sufficient preparation.

*Especially Columbus.

[homestyle28]

Your arguments are clearly based on emotion and not logic. If you absolutely cannot move, then you shouldn't attend law school

I'm sorry Mr Spock, but what was your logic here? Here's a few hypothetical premises and a conclusion for you:

P1. After finaid Capital Law School will cost me 1/4 of what other schools will.
P2. After visiting Capital, I found it to be a pleasant atmosphere, one I would likely enjoy.
P3. My wife has a successful career going in the proximity of Capital.
P4. My kid's care and Dr.s are located in the proximity of Capital.
P5. If P1-P5, then I should strongly consider attending Capital.

C1. I should strongly consider attending Capital.

QED.

[underachiever]

homestyle28,

Yes, but you must understand what you will get. A degree, that without connections, will not get you a job. Last year the #1-5 people at capital got big law jobs and most others were locked out. IF you can hustle, then sure you can work for a while and once you have proven yourself the large Capital contingent in Columbus will be a boon to you and can get you a larger firm job or a job with the state. But that first job will be the toughest. Good luck

[homestyle28]

homestyle28,

Yes, but you must understand what you will get. A degree, that without connections, will not get you a job. Last year the #1-5 people at capital got big law jobs and most others were locked out. IF you can hustle, then sure you can work for a while and once you have proven yourself the large Capital contingent in Columbus will be a boon to you and can get you a larger firm job or a job with the state. But that first job will be the toughest. Good luck

I think this is more or less right...from the people I've talked to the top half of the class at Capital had fairly successful job searches...Of course, at a school like Capital this involves a lot more mail drops than it does OCI (I was told they have OCI, but it's pretty small). And while I don't think anyone can ever count on being in the top of their class, personally I liked my chances when I met other potential students...all that being said I didn't choose capital so...

[Patriot1208]

Your arguments are clearly based on emotion and not logic. If you absolutely cannot move, then you shouldn't attend law school

I'm sorry Mr Spock, but what was your logic here? Here's a few hypothetical premises and a conclusion for you:

P1. After finaid Capital Law School will cost me 1/4 of what other schools will.
P2. After visiting Capital, I found it to be a pleasant atmosphere, one I would likely enjoy.
P3. My wife has a successful career going in the proximity of Capital.
P4. My kid's care and Dr.s are located in the proximity of Capital.
P5. If P1-P5, then I should strongly consider attending Capital.

C1. I should strongly consider attending Capital.

QED.

It's funny that you quote that exact line when I addressed some of your arguments throughout that post and others. You continually make bad arguments and you are now taking things out of context for your purpose.

I addressed point 1. I said Capital should only be an option if you can go for almost free. I'm sure a lot of people could enjoy a lot of schools, that isn't a good reason to waste 150K. Find a school that you also like and won't get you into debt or allow for much better job prospects. Argument 3 is a point that would have to be strongly considered and I respect that. Argument 4 is absolute nonsense, people move, kids switch doctors, no one cares.

So as I said earlier, and you've now argued for my point, is that you should only go to capital if it is free and you can't move. Try to not take things out of context next time.

[Patriot1208]

he likelihood of another capital grad becoming the secretary of state of ohio is probably less than 1%

Check your facts chief. In Ohio, the AG is elected and I can assure you that the last thing Ohio voters care about is what law school AG candidates attended. It is nothing more than a partisan referendum. The dumbest student at the shittiest law school may very well make the most successful politician.

Check my facts? There are facts about that? Don't be stupid. You are presupposing the argument you are making and telling me to check my facts. Also, the attorney general is not the same thing as the secretary of state, HTH.

Lastly, as someone from Ohio, believe me, they may not care if you went to Harvard but people are more savvy in most areas of the state then you think. Obviously, you do not understand how politics work because it's not just as if anyone can run, you have to make the inroads in the political spectrum before you can leave it up to the people. And it is EXTREMELY unlikely for someone of average intelligence and career achievements to do that in this day and age. For a capital grad, 99% of them can only hope for a mediocre career.

You're right: you absolutely have to make inroads; but Ohio politics are insular*. E.g., every Ohio Supreme Court justice went to an Ohio School: 1 Ohio Northern, 2 Cleveland-Marshall, 2 OSU, 1 Toledo. Appellate judges have similar educational backgrounds with a lot of Capital alums thrown in...

You can have a great career from Ohio Northern/Akron/Capital/Cleveland Marshall. I concur with some of the above sentiment: the city you desire to practice in should obviously inform your decision. I usually hedge though, because OSU is cheaper (or comparable), will give you an early career boost, and a 163 should be in reach with sufficient preparation.

*Especially Columbus.

This is my point about past success =/= future success. I don't know the profiles of all the Ohio supreme court justices but I would imagine they all had very succesful careers before they got where they are now. And the point now is that it is infinitely harder to have a succesful career out of those schools now then it was when they graduated. It is likely that at least one of the supreme court justices would not get to the same place if they graduated now. It is just the reality of the industry in todays world.

[Doritos]

Dear God, do not look @ where justices on the OHIO SUPREME COURT went to make your decision. There is an overwhelming probability that you will not end up on the Ohio Supreme Court based on the school you attend. These are what we call outliers. I can guarantee that the other people in their graduating class are not supreme justices anywhere. Let's get real here. You can have a successful happy career but ignore the outliers from these schools when making your decision. Where be the median kids? Homeless? Rich? Models? Bottles? These are the questions that you must ask.

[homestyle28]

Your arguments are clearly based on emotion and not logic. If you absolutely cannot move, then you shouldn't attend law school

I'm sorry Mr Spock, but what was your logic here? Here's a few hypothetical premises and a conclusion for you:

P1. After finaid Capital Law School will cost me 1/4 of what other schools will.
P2. After visiting Capital, I found it to be a pleasant atmosphere, one I would likely enjoy.
P3. My wife has a successful career going in the proximity of Capital.
P4. My kid's care and Dr.s are located in the proximity of Capital.
P5. If P1-P5, then I should strongly consider attending Capital.

C1. I should strongly consider attending Capital.

QED.

It's funny that you quote that exact line when I addressed some of your arguments throughout that post and others. You continually make bad arguments and you are now taking things out of context for your purpose.

I addressed point 1. I said Capital should only be an option if you can go for almost free. I'm sure a lot of people could enjoy a lot of schools, that isn't a good reason to waste 150K. Find a school that you also like and won't get you into debt or allow for much better job prospects. Argument 3 is a point that would have to be strongly considered and I respect that. Argument 4 is absolute nonsense, people move, kids switch doctors, no one cares.

So as I said earlier, and you've now argued for my point, is that you should only go to capital if it is free and you can't move. Try to not take things out of context next time.

Okay chief, here's the thing. I didn't offer 4 arguments, I offered several hypothetical premises that one might use to construct an argument leading to a course of action (what Aristotle might've practical reasoning). Before you go whining about someone's bad argument, please not the argument/premise distinction. Second, just because you don't think Premise 4 is a reason to choose a particular law school doesn't make it so. Either way, you need to say more than "it's nonsense" if you want to make a strong argument. Sure people move all the time, but they also choose not to. Finally, I pulled that quote b/c I thought it was funny. You keep saying that I (and others) make bad arguments but the thing is you simply stipulate that without providing any reasons, a pretty bad way to argue yourself. Regardless, we're pretty far afield of the OP's points so I bid you adieu.

[Patriot1208]

Your arguments are clearly based on emotion and not logic. If you absolutely cannot move, then you shouldn't attend law school

I'm sorry Mr Spock, but what was your logic here? Here's a few hypothetical premises and a conclusion for you:

P1. After finaid Capital Law School will cost me 1/4 of what other schools will.
P2. After visiting Capital, I found it to be a pleasant atmosphere, one I would likely enjoy.
P3. My wife has a successful career going in the proximity of Capital.
P4. My kid's care and Dr.s are located in the proximity of Capital.
P5. If P1-P5, then I should strongly consider attending Capital.

C1. I should strongly consider attending Capital.

QED.

It's funny that you quote that exact line when I addressed some of your arguments throughout that post and others. You continually make bad arguments and you are now taking things out of context for your purpose.

I addressed point 1. I said Capital should only be an option if you can go for almost free. I'm sure a lot of people could enjoy a lot of schools, that isn't a good reason to waste 150K. Find a school that you also like and won't get you into debt or allow for much better job prospects. Argument 3 is a point that would have to be strongly considered and I respect that. Argument 4 is absolute nonsense, people move, kids switch doctors, no one cares.

So as I said earlier, and you've now argued for my point, is that you should only go to capital if it is free and you can't move. Try to not take things out of context next time.

Okay chief, here's the thing. I didn't offer 4 arguments, I offered several hypothetical premises that one might use to construct an argument leading to a course of action (what Aristotle might've practical reasoning). Before you go whining about someone's bad argument, please not the argument/premise distinction. Second, just because you don't think Premise 4 is a reason to choose a particular law school doesn't make it so. Either way, you need to say more than "it's nonsense" if you want to make a strong argument. Sure people move all the time, but they also choose not to. Finally, I pulled that quote b/c I thought it was funny. You keep saying that I (and others) make bad arguments but the thing is you simply stipulate that without providing any reasons, a pretty bad way to argue yourself. Regardless, we're pretty far afield of the OP's points so I bid you adieu.

Nice straw man. Whether you call it a "premise" or not it is still just a sub argument meant to support a conclusion of a larger argument. Don't argue semantics and act like you are making a point. Also, i'm pretty sure it's an easy assumption to make that anyone willing to go in debt and get 50x less job opportunities so that their kids can have the same doctor is pretty absurd.

Also, I addressed the job opportunities and the cost. And most of what I'm saying is widely accepted to be true. Just because you don't like these facts doesn't make the reality any different. Capital is more likely than not to have you in debt with a crappy job and no money or to drive you from the legal profession all together. This is reality whether you're butthurt about it or not.

[Rawlsian]

Dear God, do not look @ where justices on the OHIO SUPREME COURT went to make your decision. There is an overwhelming probability that you will not end up on the Ohio Supreme Court based on the school you attend. These are what we call outliers. I can guarantee that the other people in their graduating class are not supreme justices anywhere. Let's get real here. You can have a successful happy career but ignore the outliers from these schools when making your decision. Where be the median kids? Homeless? Rich? Models? Bottles? These are the questions that you must ask.

I wasn't trying to hold up OSC judges as anecdotes of tier three law school success. Rather, they're an example of the provincial nature of Ohio politics.

[homestyle28]

Dear God, do not look @ where justices on the OHIO SUPREME COURT went to make your decision. There is an overwhelming probability that you will not end up on the Ohio Supreme Court based on the school you attend. These are what we call outliers. I can guarantee that the other people in their graduating class are not supreme justices anywhere. Let's get real here. You can have a successful happy career but ignore the outliers from these schools when making your decision. Where be the median kids? Homeless? Rich? Models? Bottles? These are the questions that you must ask.

I wasn't trying to hold up OSC judges as anecdotes of tier three law school success. Rather, they're an example of the provincial nature of Ohio politics.

And another reason why the certain kind of person might choose a tier 3/4 school...how's Vandy btw?

[thexfactor]

look. people are just trying to give you a friendly warning about the legal environment. I go to a T30 and people in the top 1/3 are struggling to get anything. I also have a decent amount of friends in Ohio and at Case. I have a buddy who is top 5% LR 1 callback with a 30k salary firm. So far at Case on lr only the top 5 students have offers right now. Granted it is still early, but it still shows how difficult it is out there.
Case is also a "decent" school. Nothing against Capital, but it is a T3 school.

People are just trying to be honest about "the situation" ( not to be confused with mike the situation) about Capital LS.

If you want to go to Capital go right ahead.... just dont go on JD underground about how there was no warning about having 50k debt and no job.

[thexfactor]

what other things have you heard?

[thexfactor]

what other things have you heard?

From Case grads/students? Not really anything too specific, just bemoaning the fact that none of them can really seem to get any jobs and having to settle for the same jobs that you might expect from Cleveland St. half a decade ago. I'm not sure how much of this is true, but they said that Case really tries to push the school's "mobility" as a selling point, when that's just not been necessarily true, providing you don't have some really, really good connections.

I'm sure the fact they're spending so much on Case's tuition doesn't exactly help.

I just checked Case's website and I love how they compare the class of 2008's unemployment rate of nearly 5% with that of the national unemployment rate in order to show how good they are. Yeah, and the average person in America isn't $170,000 in debt after law school, either.

Case IS NOT MOBILE at all. Detroit firm dont even go to case to recruit. Case had chicago oci. Guess how many firms participated... 2! both were gov agencies and had unpaid internships. On top of that, you had to spend your own money to travel to Chicago.

NY oci was like 5 firms!

Although... Cleveland does have a pretty decent legal market. It is much larger than Detroit or other comparable cities.

[homestyle28]

Perhaps my defense of Capital has been a bit too strong. I'm certainly not saying that, in the absence of other circumstances, it's the Ohio school. Undoubtedly, it's job prospects are as bleak as other T3/4's. All I started out trying to say is that it was my T4 of choice in Ohio. But, I had compelling reasons to stay and a full ride offer. All of which I turned down to chase the t-14 dream at NU. It was a tougher choice, in my circumstances, than many on TLS would suspect. But as in most things context is king.

[Claudius]

Thanks for this thread. I am tied to the Cleveland area so I can only really choose from Akron, Cleveland, or Case. Is Case particularly stronger than Cleveland when looking only in the Cleveland market? Does Akron have any pull in Cleveland? Is it still possible to go to Case part-time? I see that they have a ranked PT program, but when I applied there was no PT option.

[Patriot1208]

Thanks for this thread. I am tied to the Cleveland area so I can only really choose from Akron, Cleveland, or Case. Is Case particularly stronger than Cleveland when looking only in the Cleveland market? Does Akron have any pull in Cleveland? Is it still possible to go to Case part-time? I see that they have a ranked PT program, but when I applied there was no PT option.

If you have to go to law school and HAVE to stay in Cleveland then you go to either Case or CSU, whichever one will be the cheapest. But neither is too good of an option.

[Lawl Shcool]

I would take CSU over Case all day if I was going to stay in Cleveland / Ohio. Case is way way way too expensive and their rep in Cleveland isn't that strong.

[Case2L]

I would take CSU over Case all day if I was going to stay in Cleveland / Ohio. Case is way way way too expensive and their rep in Cleveland isn't that strong.

This is anecdotal, but I have yet to meet an '09 or '10 CSU law grad who is regularly employed in the legal field. Most went back to whatever they were doing before they went to law school, and those that are in the legal field are doing temp work. DO NOT go to Cleveland-Marshall. It used to be a decent school for Cleveland, but not anymore, as there are just not enough jobs in Cleveland for 3rd tier grads. Either go to Case on a scholarship, or reconsider law school.

[Lawl Shcool]

I would take CSU over Case all day if I was going to stay in Cleveland / Ohio. Case is way way way too expensive and their rep in Cleveland isn't that strong.

This is anecdotal, but I have yet to meet an '09 or '10 CSU law grad who is regularly employed in the legal field. Most went back to whatever they were doing before they went to law school, and those that are in the legal field are doing temp work. DO NOT go to Cleveland-Marshall. It used to be a decent school for Cleveland, but not anymore, as there are just not enough jobs in Cleveland for 3rd tier grads. Either go to Case on a scholarship, or reconsider law school.

Ya my anecdote is the opposite to yours. I know 3 2Ls at CSU right now, 2/3 with big firm gigs for next summer and a 3L with a decent sized firm in Cle. Hence my support.

Edit: typo

[Claudius]

Case's PT program is still ranked, but does it still exist? The application only referenced a full time program, but in another Case thread from last cycle it was mentioned that there isn't really a part time program but they can accommodate part time students. Can anyone shed some light on this?