Army OCS or Law School? Forum

[Paichka]

One thing to keep in mind is that OCS grads get accessed for branches AFTER Pointers and ROTC grads. It typically goes:

1. West Pointers
2. ROTC Grads
3. Leftovers

A good friend of mine (a fellow platoon leader) is now in the special forces. He was a superstar -- perfect PT tests, tactically proficient, smart as a whip, a real Captain America type. He wanted Infantry, and ended up in Chemical. OCS can be left with pretty slim pickings. It's not impossible to get your branch of choice, but it's more likely (than with other commissioning sources) that you'll end up Needs of the Army coming through OCS.

I was an ROTC commissionee, top third. I got my first choice branch (Intel), but I was detailed for three years to the chemical corps first. The problem is that many branches (Intel/Finance in particular) don't really need lieutenants. They need Captains more than they need LTs, so Big Army in its wisdom farms out the excess LTs to other branches. It ends up being great experience (menfolk end up in combat arms branches more often than not) because it gives you, the future intelligence officer, a ground level view of the operations you'll be providing intelligence to support. However, you don't get a choice as to whether or not you're detailed. It's luck of the draw. You may definitely get your first choice branch, but the chance of spending 2-3 years (your LT years, in other words) leading an Infantry platoon (or running Decon or Tech Escort missions :p) shouldn't be overlooked.

I love the Army, that said. I'm still in after 6 years, so I guess that should say something. (I'm in the funded legal education program -- they pay me to go to law school. And it isn't limited to William & Mary.)

[deadhipsters]

One thing to keep in mind is that OCS grads get accessed for branches AFTER Pointers and ROTC grads. It typically goes:

1. West Pointers
2. ROTC Grads
3. Leftovers

A good friend of mine (a fellow platoon leader) is now in the special forces. He was a superstar -- perfect PT tests, tactically proficient, smart as a whip, a real Captain America type. He wanted Infantry, and ended up in Chemical. OCS can be left with pretty slim pickings. It's not impossible to get your branch of choice, but it's more likely (than with other commissioning sources) that you'll end up Needs of the Army coming through OCS.

I was an ROTC commissionee, top third. I got my first choice branch (Intel), but I was detailed for three years to the chemical corps first. The problem is that many branches (Intel/Finance in particular) don't really need lieutenants. They need Captains more than they need LTs, so Big Army in its wisdom farms out the excess LTs to other branches. It ends up being great experience (menfolk end up in combat arms branches more often than not) because it gives you, the future intelligence officer, a ground level view of the operations you'll be providing intelligence to support. However, you don't get a choice as to whether or not you're detailed. It's luck of the draw. You may definitely get your first choice branch, but the chance of spending 2-3 years (your LT years, in other words) leading an Infantry platoon (or running Decon or Tech Escort missions :p) shouldn't be overlooked.

I love the Army, that said. I'm still in after 6 years, so I guess that should say something. (I'm in the funded legal education program -- they pay me to go to law school. And it isn't limited to William & Mary.)

I am concerned that I would not get a branch/ specialization that I was interested in. However, I would not be opposed to combat or the like. I think a lot of people may think that is crazy. But the reason a lot of people join the military is for excitement, adventure, and to have an interesting job. What would really be awful is if I was placed as a quartermaster or in some administrative job. I am well aware that Intel would probably be out at first. But, I do think there would be ways to get into it down the line.

[Voyager]

I believe serving in the military truly is a calling. Somewhere inside your head you already know whether you're going to join the military or not, same goes for which branch you want to be in.

Or you have to be a naive kid who thinks M-16s are bad ass. The truth is, the latter describes how most of us ended up in the Army or Marines when we were 18-22... and frankly, I think that is OK. Again, the experience is amazing. You will always be proud of it.

M-16s are badass! Back in garrison you'll get to hold one like every 6 months or so!

heh. yeah. turned out that way.

But then, later, I managed to spend 6 months on a shooting team... which was a good time. In any case, one out grows the immature shooty mentality after a bit.

Especially after you are the first responder to a gun shot wound...

[WhyMista]

Does the Army not guarantee Law slots like they do in the Marines. I know before I enlisted and was going to do the PLC that and aviation were the two guaranteed slots.

If you get a slot as a JAG you are not going to be seeing a shit ton of combat. If you go to Iraq its a joke now and save for a few places in A'stan its also a joke compared to pre-surge Iraq and well practically 10 years ago in A'stan. The military doesn't like throwing away Lts that they spent a ton of money on training to be attorneys.

Join the Marines if you are considering Army. We're better trained, OCS is harder, TBS sucks(from what my badass plt cmdr told me) marpat is far less lame than acus, the Marine Corps Ball fucking rocks(just get shitfaced) and its the most fun and miserable experience you'll ever have.

You will learn more about yourself than you ever would in law school. I knew a JAG who who told me(he was defending me on a lame NJP for underage drinking my first night back from Iraq) law school was a joke compared to his first deployment and OCS/TBS. You'll learn to deal with stress like no one else can and it will help you once you get out. You'll learn to find most things in civilian life to be completely laughable.

I can give you the enlisted side of things and things not to do as an O. One thing to learn is never think you're better than us and don't piss us off being a douche because enlisted men will band together to make your life a living hell. Our Bn almost got out entire COC relieved because they were denying block leave, making us do a shit ton of charlie inspections etc and we decided to get all the boots and make them miserable and when a mass amount of new Marines go UA they don't blame us they blame the O's

If you do go to OCS listen to the future Mustang(prior enlisted) they'll teach you the ropes as they have less shock to deal with.

Good luck

[flynavyjets]

... the Marine Corps Ball fucking rocks(just get shitfaced) and its the most fun and miserable experience you'll ever have.

Especially if you can have a complete conversation by only using grunts and the words kill, Oorah, Yut, and Semper Fi.

[WhyMista]

... the Marine Corps Ball fucking rocks(just get shitfaced) and its the most fun and miserable experience you'll ever have.

Especially if you can have a complete conversation by only using grunts and the words kill, Oorah, Yut, and Semper Fi.

That only happens after several hours of drinking and then random sex with girls who are hanging around downtown and you see them as you stumble outside the hotel in your blues.

I prefer to yell Yut, Kill, Burnt babies and napalm sticks to kids

[flynavyjets]

... the Marine Corps Ball fucking rocks(just get shitfaced) and its the most fun and miserable experience you'll ever have.

Especially if you can have a complete conversation by only using grunts and the words kill, Oorah, Yut, and Semper Fi.

That only happens after several hours of drinking and then random sex with girls who are hanging around downtown and you see them as you stumble outside the hotel in your blues.

I prefer to yell Yut, Kill, Burnt babies and napalm sticks to kids

Ahh... Bravo Whiskeys everywhere... BW = Barracks Whores for you civilians out there

[WhyMista]

... the Marine Corps Ball fucking rocks(just get shitfaced) and its the most fun and miserable experience you'll ever have.

Especially if you can have a complete conversation by only using grunts and the words kill, Oorah, Yut, and Semper Fi.

That only happens after several hours of drinking and then random sex with girls who are hanging around downtown and you see them as you stumble outside the hotel in your blues.

I prefer to yell Yut, Kill, Burnt babies and napalm sticks to kids

Ahh... Bravo Whiskeys everywhere... BW = Barracks Whores for you civilians out there

Or barracks bunnies

We used to watch them leave the barracks on saturday morning and all stand on the catwalk and clap as they made the walk of shame

[prezidentv8]

We used to watch them leave the barracks on saturday morning and all stand on the catwalk and clap as they made the walk of shame

That's just awesome.

[mafrench]

Retake and go to a top 25 law school with some scholy money and JAG will pay back up to 65k of your loans not to mention you may qualify for LRAP the first few years because much of your officer pay is not counted as taxable income. You can also summer intern with a local JAG office and you can apply to be in their 2 and 3L Graduate program that is similar to ROTC and gives you drill pay. If you go straight to OCS your not going to be in total control of the direction your career will go. ( i know this because my stepdad was an officer recruiter). Traditionally you military academy grads and Aggie core grads get first dibs at the service deferrals and paid graduate school. Recruiters will generally tell you what they need to in order to meet their quotas. If you truly want to practice law its best to have the JD in hand so you have control of where your military career will go. Also if you want to experience the whole adventure and combat thing, then Army is the way to go as JAG officers can still go to ranger, air assult, and jump school if they want. There are actually some very bad ass JAG officers in SF.

[WhyMista]

We used to watch them leave the barracks on saturday morning and all stand on the catwalk and clap as they made the walk of shame

That's just awesome.

Perks of being in the Corps especially if you end up with a line unit. Being infantry also has other benefits. If you aren't in the field or in the Co Office cleaning weapons you're chilling in the barracks doing jack shit, plus you never work weekends unless you're stuck on duty

[flynavyjets]

Ever consider flying? If you go Navy or Marine Corps, landing on a ship is the coolest thing you might ever do in your life...

Fly Navy Jets -- the best always have!

[deadhipsters]

Ever consider flying? If you go Navy or Marine Corps, landing on a ship is the coolest thing you might ever do in your life...

Fly Navy Jets -- the best always have!

I have actually. I just don't have the aptitude for it, I am terrible at science and math. But I can only imagine. I bet it is a blast.

[flynavyjets]

Ever consider flying? If you go Navy or Marine Corps, landing on a ship is the coolest thing you might ever do in your life...

Fly Navy Jets -- the best always have!

I have actually. I just don't have the aptitude for it, I am terrible at science and math. But I can only imagine. I bet it is a blast.

Being a Mathematician, Scientist, or Engineer is not necessary for being a good pilot. I was an International Affairs major in college. While I had to take calculus, physics, and engineering for my Commission through NROTC, I was by no means good at them.

The test to be selected for Pilot or Flight Officer is called the Aviation Selection Test Battery (ASTB). There are three parts to the score: the Aptitude Qualifier Rating (AQR), Pilot Flight Aptitude Rating (PFAR), and Flight Officer Flight Aptitude Rating (FOFAR). The scores range from 1-9; 9/9/9 is a perfect score. The ASTB has a math section that's like SAT math (out to trick you), a reading comprehension section, a spacial apperception section (you look at picture and then decide which way the aircraft is oriented to get the same picture), and a mechanical comprehension section (basic first semester physics).

Flight training is actually easier if you aren't an Aeronautical Engineer because they gear it for Political Science people. They do this by teaching Aerodynamics qualitatively instead of quantitatively. If you can look at an equation and see which variable have a direct relationship and which have an inverse relationship, you will be fine.

Flight training is fun and challenging. I'm biased, but how many 24 year old girls can say they've gone 350 knots piloting a tactical jet with three buddies in three other jets within inches of each other? Not many!

If you're seriously considering the aviation track, I will send you all my gouge (do they call it gouge in the civilian world?).

FlyNavyJets... callsign "Gizmo"

[Voodoo94]

OP,

Go to OCS, serve your 3 years as an officer and then use the fantastic new GI Bill to get a degree of your choosing while having the freedom to do what you want after graduation.

OCS has a new branching process for "College Ops" (civilian candidates). OCS candidates get placed on an order of merit list (OML) based on their performance at OCS and get to choose their branches - just like ROTC grads. What's more, the new OCS branching procedures are far more transparent than the ROTC branching process.

Each OCS class has a different number of available slots, but all branches are usually represented. We've even seen "college ops" getting Aviation lately - this was virtually unheard of even a year ago.

OCS and GI Bill for grad school is the way to go.

FLEP turns you into a "lifer" and you owe 6 years in JAG (this can be excruciating) after Law School. That can really suck, especially if during law school you find a different passion than military legal assistance and brigade trial counsel work.

Law school is a mind-opening experience, don't go in with career blinders.

http://www.armyocs.com

[Voodoo94]

Fly Navy Jets,

Have you mentioned to OP the lengthy ADSO (service obligation) incurred by Navy pilots? Sure, it sounds cool but you are also committing to something until your mid-30s.

Army OCS is a great way to get all the experience of serving as an officer and leader in a comparatively short amount of time. 3 years to the day after you take you oath at Ft. Benning, you can leave active duty and do great things as a civilian (or stay as an officer if you choose).

[flynavyjets]

Fly Navy Jets,

Have you mentioned to OP the lengthy ADSO (service obligation) incurred by Navy pilots? Sure, it sounds cool but you are also committing to something until your mid-30s.

Army OCS is a great way to get all the experience of serving as an officer and leader in a comparatively short amount of time. 3 years to the day after you take you oath at Ft. Benning, you can leave active duty and do great things as a civilian (or stay as an officer if you choose).

True. Pilots incur a commitment of 8 years from the day they get winged. NFO's incur 6. By the time you get your wings (in jets, not sure about maritime or helos), they Navy will have spent several million dollars training you. You become a national asset (and feel really special).

[Voodoo94]

8 years is an eternity. Especially when you factor that this starts AFTER completing a lengthy pilot training pipeline. Fully 5 years longer than an Army officer's ADSO and double what a Navy SWO owes.

Yes, it may feel great, but that service obligation is too long for most. Hell, the Army's 6 year ADSO for Aviators (starts on day of commission not completion of training) is a disincentive for many.

[JOThompson]

8 years is an eternity. Especially when you factor that this starts AFTER completing a lengthy pilot training pipeline. Fully 5 years longer than an Army officer's ADSO and double what a Navy SWO owes.

Yes, it may feel great, but that service obligation is too long for most. Hell, the Army's 6 year ADSO for Aviators (starts on day of commission not completion of training) is a disincentive for many.

Are you the Voodoo94 of ArmyOCS.com fame? If so, thanks for the advice you offered me (WinterPatriot) on the site. I was also facing the OP's dilemma and I decided that law school was the right option for my situation.

[Patriot1208]

This was me for a bit. Sent in the application package for the Marine PLC program, and then took the ASTB. Scored a 68 8/8/8 and then got turned down due to food allergies and problems wearing boots due to a large metal plate in my leg. I suggested having the metal plate taken out as the doctor said it was ok and they said the food allergies would still probably keep me out. That's when I started focusing on law school.

[OG Loc]

Hoping to revive this a little...I am going through a similar dilemma - deposited at Minnesota (2.7 172) but have become extremely interested in serving while simultaneously becoming concerned/terrified by the current legal market. My primary interest is the Navy Civil Engineer Corps (was a Civ E major and have w/e in construction management, what many CEC officers do), though I'm open to other branches and occupations - it all seems pretty freakin cool.

My goals if I go to law school are not extremely specific - I have interest in regulatory work and prosecution, and I'd also be pretty pleased with myself if I could swing a big firm gig. Dream law job would be to work in energy regulation (FERC, NRC, etc.).

The problem is that if I pursue commissioning and get rejected, I would be somewhat screwed. I have been laid off for some time and would have to wait until next year to start LS while trying to scramble for another job. I do have about 40K saved up from previous employemnt though, so it's not like I'd be out on the street turning tricks.

So the question is, does it make more sense to pursue LS or OCS? The possibility of being rejected seems very real what with my crap GPA (albeit in a desirable major and with upward trend), but I know I'll be wondering "what if" if I choose law school, especially if I'm disappointed with my employment opportunities in 3 years while in $75k of debt. Obviously this is something only I can decide, but there seems to be a lot of knowledge in this thread and any thoughts would be appreciated.

[deadhipsters]

Hoping to revive this a little...I am going through a similar dilemma - deposited at Minnesota (2.7 172) but have become extremely interested in serving while simultaneously becoming concerned/terrified by the current legal market. My primary interest is the Navy Civil Engineer Corps (was a Civ E major and have w/e in construction management, what many CEC officers do), though I'm open to other branches and occupations - it all seems pretty freakin cool.

My goals if I go to law school are not extremely specific - I have interest in regulatory work and prosecution, and I'd also be pretty pleased with myself if I could swing a big firm gig. Dream law job would be to work in energy regulation (FERC, NRC, etc.).

The problem is that if I pursue commissioning and get rejected, I would be somewhat screwed. I have been laid off for some time and would have to wait until next year to start LS while trying to scramble for another job. I do have about 40K saved up from previous employemnt though, so it's not like I'd be out on the street turning tricks.

So the question is, does it make more sense to pursue LS or OCS? The possibility of being rejected seems very real what with my crap GPA (albeit in a desirable major and with upward trend), but I know I'll be wondering "what if" if I choose law school, especially if I'm disappointed with my employment opportunities in 3 years while in $75k of debt. Obviously this is something only I can decide, but there seems to be a lot of knowledge in this thread and any thoughts would be appreciated.

I may be mistaken, but I think because you are an engineer, you might qualify for Direct Commission. Which would mean you would be an engineer in the military. I think you should look into that. Getting stuck in a field you don’t want is my main deterrent, and why I am waiting to see what I score on my retake, October LSAT, before making a decision on this. I know this can be done for engineers for the Coast Guard. See link:

http://www.gocoastguard.com/find-your-c ... n-programs

You just barely qualify w/ your 2.7. But, I bet it could be done.

[OG Loc]

Hoping to revive this a little...I am going through a similar dilemma - deposited at Minnesota (2.7 172) but have become extremely interested in serving while simultaneously becoming concerned/terrified by the current legal market. My primary interest is the Navy Civil Engineer Corps (was a Civ E major and have w/e in construction management, what many CEC officers do), though I'm open to other branches and occupations - it all seems pretty freakin cool.

My goals if I go to law school are not extremely specific - I have interest in regulatory work and prosecution, and I'd also be pretty pleased with myself if I could swing a big firm gig. Dream law job would be to work in energy regulation (FERC, NRC, etc.).

The problem is that if I pursue commissioning and get rejected, I would be somewhat screwed. I have been laid off for some time and would have to wait until next year to start LS while trying to scramble for another job. I do have about 40K saved up from previous employemnt though, so it's not like I'd be out on the street turning tricks.

So the question is, does it make more sense to pursue LS or OCS? The possibility of being rejected seems very real what with my crap GPA (albeit in a desirable major and with upward trend), but I know I'll be wondering "what if" if I choose law school, especially if I'm disappointed with my employment opportunities in 3 years while in $75k of debt. Obviously this is something only I can decide, but there seems to be a lot of knowledge in this thread and any thoughts would be appreciated.

I may be mistaken, but I think because you are an engineer, you might qualify for Direct Commission. Which would mean you would be an engineer in the military. I think you should look into that. Getting stuck in a field you don’t want is my main deterrent, and why I am waiting to see what I score on my retake, October LSAT, before making a decision on this. I know this can be done for engineers for the Coast Guard. See link:

http://www.gocoastguard.com/find-your-c ... n-programs

You just barely qualify w/ your 2.7. But, I bet it could be done.

That would be my deterrent too if I were going into the Army, but from what I understand the Navy protocol is to allow officer applicants to initially apply for up to 3 occupations, recommend the applicant for one or more of them, and then swear them in and proceed with OCS. There's no 100% guarantee that one will end up as the designator they were recommended for until it's all said and done, but I think it can be reasonably expected. And if you're not recommended for the job you want, no harm no foul, unlike the Army where it all happens after you're sworn in.

That said, I haven't ruled the Army out either. And thanks for the CG info, though that particular track is for computer/electrical engineers, not us dumb ol' civils.

[deadhipsters]

Hoping to revive this a little...I am going through a similar dilemma - deposited at Minnesota (2.7 172) but have become extremely interested in serving while simultaneously becoming concerned/terrified by the current legal market. My primary interest is the Navy Civil Engineer Corps (was a Civ E major and have w/e in construction management, what many CEC officers do), though I'm open to other branches and occupations - it all seems pretty freakin cool.

My goals if I go to law school are not extremely specific - I have interest in regulatory work and prosecution, and I'd also be pretty pleased with myself if I could swing a big firm gig. Dream law job would be to work in energy regulation (FERC, NRC, etc.).

The problem is that if I pursue commissioning and get rejected, I would be somewhat screwed. I have been laid off for some time and would have to wait until next year to start LS while trying to scramble for another job. I do have about 40K saved up from previous employemnt though, so it's not like I'd be out on the street turning tricks.

So the question is, does it make more sense to pursue LS or OCS? The possibility of being rejected seems very real what with my crap GPA (albeit in a desirable major and with upward trend), but I know I'll be wondering "what if" if I choose law school, especially if I'm disappointed with my employment opportunities in 3 years while in $75k of debt. Obviously this is something only I can decide, but there seems to be a lot of knowledge in this thread and any thoughts would be appreciated.

I may be mistaken, but I think because you are an engineer, you might qualify for Direct Commission. Which would mean you would be an engineer in the military. I think you should look into that. Getting stuck in a field you don’t want is my main deterrent, and why I am waiting to see what I score on my retake, October LSAT, before making a decision on this. I know this can be done for engineers for the Coast Guard. See link:

http://www.gocoastguard.com/find-your-c ... n-programs

You just barely qualify w/ your 2.7. But, I bet it could be done.

That would be my deterrent too if I were going into the Army, but from what I understand the Navy protocol is to allow officer applicants to initially apply for up to 3 occupations, recommend the applicant for one or more of them, and then swear them in and proceed with OCS. There's no 100% guarantee that one will end up as the designator they were recommended for until it's all said and done, but I think it can be reasonably expected. And if you're not recommended for the job you want, no harm no foul, unlike the Army where it all happens after you're sworn in.

That said, I haven't ruled the Army out either. And thanks for the CG info, though that particular track is for computer/electrical engineers, not us dumb ol' civils.

Yes. You are correct about the Navy protocol. I think that is probably a great fit for someone w/ your background. Also, what about the Army Corp of Engineers? I think that may even be a civilian organization. Anyway, worse case scenario: you don’t get the job you like and you end up going to a great law school. Good luck.

[OG Loc]

Hoping to revive this a little...I am going through a similar dilemma - deposited at Minnesota (2.7 172) but have become extremely interested in serving while simultaneously becoming concerned/terrified by the current legal market. My primary interest is the Navy Civil Engineer Corps (was a Civ E major and have w/e in construction management, what many CEC officers do), though I'm open to other branches and occupations - it all seems pretty freakin cool.

My goals if I go to law school are not extremely specific - I have interest in regulatory work and prosecution, and I'd also be pretty pleased with myself if I could swing a big firm gig. Dream law job would be to work in energy regulation (FERC, NRC, etc.).

The problem is that if I pursue commissioning and get rejected, I would be somewhat screwed. I have been laid off for some time and would have to wait until next year to start LS while trying to scramble for another job. I do have about 40K saved up from previous employemnt though, so it's not like I'd be out on the street turning tricks.

So the question is, does it make more sense to pursue LS or OCS? The possibility of being rejected seems very real what with my crap GPA (albeit in a desirable major and with upward trend), but I know I'll be wondering "what if" if I choose law school, especially if I'm disappointed with my employment opportunities in 3 years while in $75k of debt. Obviously this is something only I can decide, but there seems to be a lot of knowledge in this thread and any thoughts would be appreciated.

I may be mistaken, but I think because you are an engineer, you might qualify for Direct Commission. Which would mean you would be an engineer in the military. I think you should look into that. Getting stuck in a field you don’t want is my main deterrent, and why I am waiting to see what I score on my retake, October LSAT, before making a decision on this. I know this can be done for engineers for the Coast Guard. See link:

http://www.gocoastguard.com/find-your-c ... n-programs

You just barely qualify w/ your 2.7. But, I bet it could be done.

That would be my deterrent too if I were going into the Army, but from what I understand the Navy protocol is to allow officer applicants to initially apply for up to 3 occupations, recommend the applicant for one or more of them, and then swear them in and proceed with OCS. There's no 100% guarantee that one will end up as the designator they were recommended for until it's all said and done, but I think it can be reasonably expected. And if you're not recommended for the job you want, no harm no foul, unlike the Army where it all happens after you're sworn in.

That said, I haven't ruled the Army out either. And thanks for the CG info, though that particular track is for computer/electrical engineers, not us dumb ol' civils.

Yes. You are correct about the Navy protocol. I think that is probably a great fit for someone w/ your background. Also, what about the Army Corp of Engineers? I think that may even be a civilian organization. Anyway, worse case scenario: you don’t get the job you like and you end up going to a great law school. Good luck.

ACE is definitely under the Dept of the Army, but they do employ many civilians (I've seen them on more than a few OCI lists too - WTF?). I admit I do not know much more about them though.
Thanks, and good luck with your retake and ultimate decision.