Is paying sticker at MVPB really stupid? Forum

[badwithpseudonyms]

I have been trying to avoid this thread all day because I'm about to be paying sticker at V and am ambivalent as hell about it. Just glad I didn't go straight out of UG and get hit by the brunt of ITE. Still, the plan was always to go to law school and so I got a liberal arts degree that doesn't do shit for me. I could spend another few years slinging coffee at Starbucks or moving around the country to do political shit, but I'd like to start my career before I'm thirty.

I guess my point is this: If someone's got something else going for them, then yeah, why not wait and see if hiring picks up and law school looks like a safer bet? But if they don't, what the fuck else do you think they should do? Become an electrician? Really? You people really think being an electrician is better than graduating from one of the best law schools in the country? You don't think electricians were hit by ITE when the housing bubble burst and the credit markets froze? ITE is not exclusive to the legal industry. I get that law school is overpriced and the risk of getting fucked hard is significant, but it's not like people are going to be thrown in debtor's prison. And there's a better than 50/50 chance that you come out of the deal making six figures, which should be enough to pay off your loans and live pretty well in the long run.

/rant

[northwood]

+1....

[Voyager]

I have been trying to avoid this thread all day because I'm about to be paying sticker at V and am ambivalent as hell about it. Just glad I didn't go straight out of UG and get hit by the brunt of ITE. Still, the plan was always to go to law school and so I got a liberal arts degree that doesn't do shit for me. I could spend another few years slinging coffee at Starbucks or moving around the country to do political shit, but I'd like to start my career before I'm thirty.

I guess my point is this: If someone's got something else going for them, then yeah, why not wait and see if hiring picks up and law school looks like a safer bet? But if they don't, what the fuck else do you think they should do? Become an electrician? Really? You people really think being an electrician is better than graduating from one of the best law schools in the country? You don't think electricians were hit by ITE when the housing bubble burst and the credit markets froze? ITE is not exclusive to the legal industry. I get that law school is overpriced and the risk of getting fucked hard is significant, but it's not like people are going to be thrown in debtor's prison. And there's a better than 50/50 chance that you come out of the deal making six figures, which should be enough to pay off your loans and live pretty well in the long run.

/rant

Electrician? Yeah, really.

Frankly, I think almost any job is better than paying a huge amount of money for the chance to earn the exact same salary as an electrician who, by the way, can end up building pretty nice careers for themselves.

Top end electricians at nuke power plants, for example, earn 6 figures.

Hell, join the military as an officer. Fantastic once in a life time experience. Leadership training/experience.

How about the U.S. Civil Service? Or CIA? Or FBI?

There is NOT a better than 50/50 chance of big law at the vast majority of schools and, even if it is 50/50 at the bottom half the top 10, do you really think that flipping a coin for financial disaster vs $160k is a good idea?

Look, there are too many lawyers and law schools are charging way way too much for what you can earn.

Law school should not longer be the "go-to" for aimless undergrads.

If you HAVE to get a graduate degree go to a top 10 business school. Only 2 years instead of 3 and much higher top end income potential.

[Voyager]

Why are you hanging out on a forum for law school students, Voyager?

Not saying your analysis is without merit, but if you're so certain law is a bad bet in all cases, then perhaps you would deem it wise to spend your time on other pursuits.

Well, because I went to Columbia for law school and just graduated. ITE (nice to see xoxo memes have been adopted here) happened while I was figuring my employment out... so I have some thoughts on the situation.

And yes, I regret not going to business school instead... and I came out of the mess in a pretty amazing position.

[eldizknee]

.

[Voyager]

According to BLS the middle 50% of electricians make between $35k and $65k. Job growth is expected to be 12% over ten years. The middle 50% of attorneys make between $75k and $163k and job growth is expected to be 13% over ten years. Not sure the electrician wet dream is justified, but I do agree that tuition is way too high at most schools outside of T6.

heh. sure. except those electricians ALSO work many fewer hours, did NOT lose 3 years of income AND did not have to go into $200,000 of debt.

So your calculus is not as simple as comparing salaries.

While my original comment was tongue-in-cheek it is surprisingly scary how not too far off it was.

I mean, look:

"The first cost to becoming an electrician is for training. Compared to other careers, such as doctor or lawyer, the cost to take classes to become an electrician is pretty reasonable.
Seek out an apprenticeship program in your area. (Some electricians choose to attend a vocational program first, but that is not always required.) Many local unions and schools offer apprentice programs for new electricians for between $400 to $1,000 a year. An electrician's apprentice will have to do on-the-job training with a certified electrician, sometimes for as long as four years, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' "Occupational Outlook Handbook, 2008-09 Edition."
The good thing about this type of program is that an apprentice is paid, usually at 50 percent the rate of a full-fledged electrician, so you are able to pay off any debts for the program. In some cases, the electrician is responsible for paying the student's tuition. There are usually additional fees involved with joining an apprenticeship program, since you will have to undergo classroom training and buy books, according to the Florida Electrical Apprenticeship Association.

Read more: The Cost to Become an Electrician | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_4703302_cost- ... z0rvcDnyzO

I mean, assume the apprenticeship is 2 years. Can't imagine it is much more than that...

So, after 3 years the young attorney is probably earning something like $50k in this economy while working 60+ hour weeks (ASSUMING HE HAS A JOB AT ALL) and suffocating under $200k of debt.

Meanwhile, the new journeyman electrician is probably earning something like $40k while working 40 hour work weeks with NO debt AND he spent, say 2 years as an apprentice at half rate and a 3rd year at full rate... So by year 3 he has earned +$80,000 as opposed to the lawyer who is at -$200k.

I mean, this may not be as absurd as you think.

On top of it all, the electrician has learned a trade that will always be useful and contributes to society.

[djgoldbe]

On top of it all, the electrician has learned a trade that will always be useful and contributes to society.

Kind of depressing if your insinuating that lawyers are not in a similar category (And perhaps even more so considering robots could - and have begun - doing much of the electrical work in prefab / modular housing).

[Kswizzie]

I have been trying to avoid this thread all day because I'm about to be paying sticker at V and am ambivalent as hell about it. Just glad I didn't go straight out of UG and get hit by the brunt of ITE. Still, the plan was always to go to law school and so I got a liberal arts degree that doesn't do shit for me. I could spend another few years slinging coffee at Starbucks or moving around the country to do political shit, but I'd like to start my career before I'm thirty.

I guess my point is this: If someone's got something else going for them, then yeah, why not wait and see if hiring picks up and law school looks like a safer bet? But if they don't, what the fuck else do you think they should do? Become an electrician? Really? You people really think being an electrician is better than graduating from one of the best law schools in the country? You don't think electricians were hit by ITE when the housing bubble burst and the credit markets froze? ITE is not exclusive to the legal industry. I get that law school is overpriced and the risk of getting fucked hard is significant, but it's not like people are going to be thrown in debtor's prison. And there's a better than 50/50 chance that you come out of the deal making six figures, which should be enough to pay off your loans and live pretty well in the long run.

/rant

Electrician? Yeah, really.

Frankly, I think almost any job is better than paying a huge amount of money for the chance to earn the exact same salary as an electrician who, by the way, can end up building pretty nice careers for themselves.

Top end electricians at nuke power plants, for example, earn 6 figures.

Hell, join the military as an officer. Fantastic once in a life time experience. Leadership training/experience.

How about the U.S. Civil Service? Or CIA? Or FBI?

There is NOT a better than 50/50 chance of big law at the vast majority of schools and, even if it is 50/50 at the bottom half the top 10, do you really think that flipping a coin for financial disaster vs $160k is a good idea?

Look, there are too many lawyers and law schools are charging way way too much for what you can earn.

Law school should not longer be the "go-to" for aimless undergrads.

If you HAVE to get a graduate degree go to a top 10 business school. Only 2 years instead of 3 and much higher top end income potential.

I think you severely underestimate the difficulty of getting a job as a member of the CIA, FBI or even being a military officer (for those that didn't plan ahead and do one of the service academies or rotc) you need basically not only do you need a gpa which would be good enough to get you into a t10 law school you need to be pretty athletic.

[09042014]

\
I think you severely underestimate the difficulty of getting a job as a member of the CIA, FBI or even being a military officer (for those that didn't plan ahead and do one of the service academies or rotc) you need basically not only do you need a gpa which would be good enough to get you into a t10 law school you need to be pretty athletic.

For a military officer? No.

[Kswizzie]

\
I think you severely underestimate the difficulty of getting a job as a member of the CIA, FBI or even being a military officer (for those that didn't plan ahead and do one of the service academies or rotc) you need basically not only do you need a gpa which would be good enough to get you into a t10 law school you need to be pretty athletic.

For a military officer? No.

I'm supposed to commission next May. That's the way its gotten in the Air Force and Navy, in fact the Air Force is cutting its numbers in a lot of career fields the Army and the Marines are a little different but... well you know the risks of those...

[badwithpseudonyms]

Electrician? Yeah, really.

Frankly, I think almost any job is better than paying a huge amount of money for the chance to earn the exact same salary as an electrician who, by the way, can end up building pretty nice careers for themselves.

Top end electricians at nuke power plants, for example, earn 6 figures.

Hell, join the military as an officer. Fantastic once in a life time experience. Leadership training/experience.

How about the U.S. Civil Service? Or CIA? Or FBI?

There is NOT a better than 50/50 chance of big law at the vast majority of schools and, even if it is 50/50 at the bottom half the top 10, do you really think that flipping a coin for financial disaster vs $160k is a good idea?

Look, there are too many lawyers and law schools are charging way way too much for what you can earn.

Law school should not longer be the "go-to" for aimless undergrads.

If you HAVE to get a graduate degree go to a top 10 business school. Only 2 years instead of 3 and much higher top end income potential.

Glad you made it out of ITE okay. I really do feel bad for the people who have graduated the last few years.

It's not like I'm some naive asshole from the Cooley c/o 2013 or have tuned out everything that has been written about the state of the legal industry ITE. In fact, I appreciate the earnest efforts of those not simply looking to fuck with people online.

But, to address your alternative career suggestions...

Electricians: You can make six figures as an electrician. ...But you can also make six figures as a lawyer. My guess is that the latter is probably more often the case. Many of those trade/tech schools are as big a scam as law school, if not worse.
Anecdotal, I know, but I've heard that there is a glut of people waiting for commissions in the military.
For every job listed on USAJOBS, and that's a lot, the government has been getting 170 applications. Most kids fresh out of ug don't have the requisite experience for many, if not most of these jobs. And I think you're underestimating how easy it is to get a job with the FBI or CIA. Hell, you can't even get in as an entry level bureaucrat with a bad credit score.

There are even some threads floating around on TLS on the topic, I think.
I agree with you that tuition prices are absurd, law school shouldn't be a default for undergrad's too scared to test out the real world, and that most schools won't give their grads better than a 10% shot at biglaw, let alone 50/50, (I believe that if 75% of the law schools in this country closed their doors tomorrow, the world would be no worse off, if not better.) but we are specifically talking about MVPB ITT.

Edit: Format change in AM.

[Voyager]

I was a military officer. It takes some effort to do it, but it is easier than you think... unless you want to be a Marine.

FBI? CIA? Quite doable.

Heh. Ok. So no one here likes being an electrician. Well how about nursing? Someone with a college degree can pick up a nursing degree in nursing through a 2 year program (--LinkRemoved--). You'll start out with a guaranteed job, will only work 36 hours per week (three 12 hour shifts), can live any where you want in the country (Hawaii!) AND, after 5 or so years, can make over $100k! One of my ex-girlfriends was a nurse. She had a fantastic deal going on. She could pick up and move every few months if she wanted, was earning (in California and New York) something $36/hour AND got a stipend for rent (in NY that was $1500/month).

And yes, I think lawyers are parasites. Sorry. The entire profession is a giant guild. Lawyers in legislatures pass laws to ensure that as many lawyers as possible are needed and that lay people have no chance at navigating the legal system without one.

Hell, the vast majority of what a 1st year associate does SHOULD be done by a paralegal. Searching Westlaw and writing memos is easy. I did not need 3 years of a CLS education to figure that out.

Law is one of the great American protected industries and, like all such industries, is running into and causing serious problems because of it. There are too many lawyers. Way way way too many. 90,000 new lawyers graduate EVERY YEAR. It is absurd.

Unless you can go to a school which allows you to set your self apart from 87,000 of your peers, it is a bad idea.

I apologize if I derailed this thread. Back to your original question: sticker at MVP? no. Not in this economy. Not with a huge swath of those classes starting out earning salaries that 22 year old nurses make working HALF of the hours. Not with another large group of those classes struggling to find ANY employment whatsoever.

Impressive that you were accepted at those programs? Buddy, ABSOLUTELY. You are clearly an extremely bright guy/girl. There is no question about that and I am not trying to take that away from you. If this were 2006 I would be encouraging you to go. As it stands, I feel like I need to make an extreme argument to bring attention to the plight of many 2010 and 2011 T10 law grads. It's rough out there. And $200,000 of debt is quite a lot when you don't have a job or have a salary that you could have had without the debt.

Again, I hope things turn around for your peer group. Maybe they will.

[ze2151]

check yourself with that nursing argument. my wife is a nurse. when she graduated (2008) all but 1 nurse in her class had a job lined up. the very next year, 50% of the class didn't have jobs at graduation. just because hospitals have nursing shortages doesn't mean they're hiring nurses. you need experience to get a job right now.

[burtonrideclub]

Well, my new score is back and it is exactly as I thought--166, same as last time, so it turns out this thread is not premature at all. So, retake ( for the third time) and reapply, or sticker at MVPB?

Hopefully this will be a little encouragement. I just got back my June LSAT and it was a 171. My two scores before this? Both 166. I also practiced in the mid 170's.. With your gpa, I would be taking the LSAT as many times as you can.

[Voyager]

check yourself with that nursing argument. my wife is a nurse. when she graduated (2008) all but 1 nurse in her class had a job lined up. the very next year, 50% of the class didn't have jobs at graduation. just because hospitals have nursing shortages doesn't mean they're hiring nurses. you need experience to get a job right now.

that sucks. Of course, I'd still think going to nursing school is much much better than going to 190 of the 200 American law schools.

[Patriot1208]

I was a military officer. It takes some effort to do it, but it is easier than you think... unless you want to be a Marine.

FBI? CIA? Quite doable.

Doable yes, but a few stipulations. I think A LOT of people on these boards would never pass the polygraphs (if you wan to be an SA or CIA nco). And the only agency that official has polygraph wagers is the DEA. Also, if your talking about out of undergrad, it is EXTREMELY rare for someone to get hired on before significant work experience. The average agents are between 27-30. And quite frankly the majority of the guys that get on are either ex military or ex local cops, and to get in you have to be in pretty good shape (although most of them get fat afterwards because there is no follow up on fitness). Recently there was a guy killed in afghanistan who was a DEA SA and had gone to stanford and then HLS. And if your smart enough to go to a good law school, its pretty easy to get on as a military officer (save the marines).

[ze2151]

check yourself with that nursing argument. my wife is a nurse. when she graduated (2008) all but 1 nurse in her class had a job lined up. the very next year, 50% of the class didn't have jobs at graduation. just because hospitals have nursing shortages doesn't mean they're hiring nurses. you need experience to get a job right now.

that sucks. Of course, I'd still think going to nursing school is much much better than going to 190 of the 200 American law schools.

luckily my wife has an amazing job, not unlike the ones you described earlier. it sucks for people who went into it thinking there'd definitely be jobs waiting for them when they finished (sound familiar?). But if they do a little legwork and lower their expectations a little, maybe move to an underserved area or back home, they can get jobs.

[Voyager]

check yourself with that nursing argument. my wife is a nurse. when she graduated (2008) all but 1 nurse in her class had a job lined up. the very next year, 50% of the class didn't have jobs at graduation. just because hospitals have nursing shortages doesn't mean they're hiring nurses. you need experience to get a job right now.

that sucks. Of course, I'd still think going to nursing school is much much better than going to 190 of the 200 American law schools.

luckily my wife has an amazing job, not unlike the ones you described earlier. it sucks for people who went into it thinking there'd definitely be jobs waiting for them when they finished (sound familiar?). But if they do a little legwork and lower their expectations a little, maybe move to an underserved area or back home, they can get jobs.

sure. of course, 2 years of nursing school is substantially cheaper than law school. Also, the hours are HALF and the pay is very similar.

So I hear you, but I still think being a nurse is a better deal... except for the poo.

[motiontodismiss]

Law is one of the great American protected industries and, like all such industries, is running into and causing serious problems because of it. There are too many lawyers. Way way way too many. 90,000 new lawyers graduate EVERY YEAR. It is absurd.

Last I checked, that number is 45,000, for ~30,000 new lawyer jobs each year (maybe less ITE). However that doesn't alter the veracity of your statement.

The good thing is that the legal profession is self-sustaining. It creates its own demand. You may think they're parasites, but so what.

The prospects are definitely better than academia which seems to be the other option for someone with a BA in English.

[Voyager]

Law is one of the great American protected industries and, like all such industries, is running into and causing serious problems because of it. There are too many lawyers. Way way way too many. 90,000 new lawyers graduate EVERY YEAR. It is absurd.

Last I checked, that number is 45,000, for ~30,000 new lawyer jobs each year (maybe less ITE). However that doesn't alter the veracity of your statement.

The good thing is that the legal profession is self-sustaining. It creates its own demand. You may think they're parasites, but so what.

The prospects are definitely better than academia which seems to be the other option for someone with a BA in English.

Oh for sure. PhD in English or history is shit. Truly awful experience while you are doing it and shitty jobs afterwards.

And the legal profession is no longer self sustaining. There is not enough food left for the parasites. Host death.

[clintonius]

And that's especially relevant compared to the >75 operating nuclear reactors in the US which are hiring fresh electricians like they're going out of style, all for six figure salaries and the potential for a seven-figure share in 10 years.

[clevinger33]

<--- Paying sticker at MVPB. Hoping/praying it doesn't end up to be a terrible decision. I was a ridiculous splitter, though, so I wouldn't be paying much less anywhere else.

[clevinger33]

Double post?

[Voyager]

And that's especially relevant compared to the >75 operating nuclear reactors in the US which are hiring fresh electricians like they're going out of style, all for six figure salaries and the potential for a seven-figure share in 10 years.

Heh. I personally got several guys placed in nuke plants at over $100k in a previous job.

Here is another GREAT career option:

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/navy/l/blnukeschool.htm

Navy Nuke Officer is a great way to go, but enlisted guys make a ton upon leaving as well.

[clintonius]

Mostly I was just being a smartass -- I've actually thought about career military, and I'm very much not in the "OH MY GOD I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WOULD DO WITH MY LIFE I GUESS I SHOULD GO TO LAW SCHOOL" crowd (plus I'm headed to NYU, which isn't the worst place even for people who are in that boat). But you're failing to advertise the level of education needed to nab a nuclear submarine operator position. That's pretty significant.