UPENN vs. Fordham $$$ Forum

[underachiever]

Penn....b/c we are awesome

[OperaSoprano]

So the lack of debt would be the only reason to go Fordham. This is an incredibly important reason to consider it. However, you would be giving up so much in terms of job opportunities and overall status (even in New York), and for this reason I will join the chorus and vote Penn.

The difference in debt would be about 50k, maybe 60k. The COL in NYC would offset some of the difference in that scholarship. The difference between a school like Penn and a school like Fordham is worth WAY more than $50k.

Also, IBOS.

Bastard, I wanted dibs! I'd bet that OS would say Penn to though, after throwing in some good stuff about Fordham though.

+1.

Holy crap. I'm away for like 48 hours and all hell breaks loose. My classmate put this honestly and well. For biglaw, it makes sense to go to the best school you can get into, unless you are comparing something like a Hamilton with HYS at sticker. I adore my school. I have been happier than I really had any right to be at Fordham, and I would not have had it any other way, but biglaw was not my goal coming into this. Yes, we do outplace our rank by a lot, and in a normal year top third (and sometimes up to ten percent deeper into the class) had a good shot at biglaw. We are headed into the unknown, and I can't read anyone's palm. I have someone working on fixing the economy, but he says it will take some time. In the meantime, OP needs to weigh personal happiness, debt concerns, and biglaw aspirations, in order to pick the right school. Someone this cycle passed up UVA for Fordham with a ton of money. It was the right decision for her, given family ties, but I absolutely could not countenance her doing it until she went to Charlottesville to have a look around. I say the same to OP. These are not easy decisions.

To answer A'nold regarding semantics: does it matter? Fordham hasn't changed.

[Blimpo12]

Blimpo here is the deal. I go to fordham. If you want BigLaw unless you plan on graduating in the top 10% at Fordham (good luck with that plan) then you should go to Penn. I'm not sure % Penn places these days in BigLaw but it has to be at least top third. If you are not set on BigLaw and just want a good job in NY....still go to Penn. It's really rough out there right now and you'll want Penn at the top of your resume. I guarantee it. I love Fordham by the way but the economy really sucks in case you haven't noticed and jobs are really scarce. On second thought, don't go to law school at all. Good luck! And now back to the writing competition.

Do you really need top 10 percent at Fordham to have a shot at biglaw?

[thatsnotmyname]

Blimpo here is the deal. I go to fordham. If you want BigLaw unless you plan on graduating in the top 10% at Fordham (good luck with that plan) then you should go to Penn. I'm not sure % Penn places these days in BigLaw but it has to be at least top third. If you are not set on BigLaw and just want a good job in NY....still go to Penn. It's really rough out there right now and you'll want Penn at the top of your resume. I guarantee it. I love Fordham by the way but the economy really sucks in case you haven't noticed and jobs are really scarce. On second thought, don't go to law school at all. Good luck! And now back to the writing competition.

Do you really need top 10 percent at Fordham to have a shot at biglaw?

Yea, I was wondering that too. Top 10 percent sounds really low for Fordham. I imagined it would've been higher, like top 25-30 percent...?

[clintonius]

This post helps put into perspective the reality of biglaw now vs biglaw just a couple of years ago. Given that there are about 1/3 of the positions there used to be, it actually lines up pretty nicely to predict that you need to be top 10% now vs top 30% in 2008 or so.

[JWicker10]

Penn, no question about it.

[CG614]

Go to Fordham. It's what you want to hear anyway.

Fordham is a great school, and if you want to stay in NYC, do it. Just know, that you decreasing your shot at Biglaw. Regardless, do well at Fordham and it won't matter. Do what is going to work for you. IMHO, I would go to Penn if given your same situation.

[OperaSoprano]

Blimpo here is the deal. I go to fordham. If you want BigLaw unless you plan on graduating in the top 10% at Fordham (good luck with that plan) then you should go to Penn. I'm not sure % Penn places these days in BigLaw but it has to be at least top third. If you are not set on BigLaw and just want a good job in NY....still go to Penn. It's really rough out there right now and you'll want Penn at the top of your resume. I guarantee it. I love Fordham by the way but the economy really sucks in case you haven't noticed and jobs are really scarce. On second thought, don't go to law school at all. Good luck! And now back to the writing competition.

Do you really need top 10 percent at Fordham to have a shot at biglaw?

Yea, I was wondering that too. Top 10 percent sounds really low for Fordham. I imagined it would've been higher, like top 25-30 percent...?

Normally it's top third, sometimes even deeper into the class (we've seen up to 43.7% in 2008.) The class of 2011 had it really, really rough. They were called a lost generation or a lost class, and this happened at many, many schools, not only at Fordham. As a rising 2L, I can tell you that my classmate and I only have anecdotal information. It wasn't good, but the good news is it wasn't normal, and when the economy picks up, we have every reason (all available historical data) to believe things will be a lot better. (FTR, no one knows the actual percentage for the class of 2011, because it hasn't been released. We won't tell you it was awesome, because it wasn't, but it might not have been as low as 10%. I will post actual numbers when I can get them.)

We are expecting a small rebound for the class of 2012. I do wish the very best for my classmates, and I have no regrets.

[CG614]

Blimpo here is the deal. I go to fordham. If you want BigLaw unless you plan on graduating in the top 10% at Fordham (good luck with that plan) then you should go to Penn. I'm not sure % Penn places these days in BigLaw but it has to be at least top third. If you are not set on BigLaw and just want a good job in NY....still go to Penn. It's really rough out there right now and you'll want Penn at the top of your resume. I guarantee it. I love Fordham by the way but the economy really sucks in case you haven't noticed and jobs are really scarce. On second thought, don't go to law school at all. Good luck! And now back to the writing competition.

Do you really need top 10 percent at Fordham to have a shot at biglaw?

Yea, I was wondering that too. Top 10 percent sounds really low for Fordham. I imagined it would've been higher, like top 25-30 percent...?

Normally it's top third, sometimes even deeper into the class (we've seen up to 43.7% in 2008.) The class of 2011 had it really, really rough. They were called a lost generation or a lost class, and this happened at many, many schools, not only at Fordham. As a rising 2L, I can tell you that my classmate and I only have anecdotal information. It wasn't good, but the good news is it wasn't normal, and when the economy picks up, we have every reason (all available historical data) to believe things will be a lot better. (FTR, no one knows the actual percentage for the class of 2011, because it hasn't been released. We won't tell you it was awesome, because it wasn't, but it might not have been as low as 10%. I will post actual numbers when I can get them.)

Not a knock on Fordham at all, but I think the rebound will have a lagged effect. Meaning, I think the top schools will first see the real gains, then it will trickle downward. I know this may sound douchie, but just my opinion. I just doubt everything will go back to where it was before all at once. That being said, a Fordham degree is awesome for NYC, and the alumni network will certainly help it rebound quicker than most schools outside the T14.

[hannah87]

So the lack of debt would be the only reason to go Fordham. This is an incredibly important reason to consider it. However, you would be giving up so much in terms of job opportunities and overall status (even in New York), and for this reason I will join the chorus and vote Penn.

The difference in debt would be about 50k, maybe 60k. The COL in NYC would offset some of the difference in that scholarship. The difference between a school like Penn and a school like Fordham is worth WAY more than $50k.

Also, IBOS.

Bastard, I wanted dibs! I'd bet that OS would say Penn to though, after throwing in some good stuff about Fordham though.

+1.

Holy crap. I'm away for like 48 hours and all hell breaks loose. My classmate put this honestly and well. For biglaw, it makes sense to go to the best school you can get into, unless you are comparing something like a Hamilton with HYS at sticker. I adore my school. I have been happier than I really had any right to be at Fordham, and I would not have had it any other way, but biglaw was not my goal coming into this. Yes, we do outplace our rank by a lot, and in a normal year top third (and sometimes up to ten percent deeper into the class) had a good shot at biglaw. We are headed into the unknown, and I can't read anyone's palm. I have someone working on fixing the economy, but he says it will take some time. In the meantime, OP needs to weigh personal happiness, debt concerns, and biglaw aspirations, in order to pick the right school. Someone this cycle passed up UVA for Fordham with a ton of money. It was the right decision for her, given family ties, but I absolutely could not countenance her doing it until she went to Charlottesville to have a look around. I say the same to OP. These are not easy decisions.

To answer A'nold regarding semantics: does it matter? Fordham hasn't changed.

thanks for the shoutout

it was a hard decision, but i did what i had to do, and have no regrets. i am really excited about fordham. FYI, i'm going for BigLaw, too.

OP, if you are single/don't have a strong family or personal reason to stay in NYC, then go to Penn. i would have loved to go to one of MVP if it were more feasible. good luck with your decision!! i don't think you can really go wrong.

[Blimpo12]

OP, if you are single/don't have a strong family or personal reason to stay in NYC, then go to Penn. i would have loved to go to one of MVP if it were more feasible. good luck with your decision!! i don't think you can really go wrong.[/quote]

I am married and have strong ties to NYC. In addition, my wife has a good job in New York........... If I were single I think I would definitely head to PENN but Fordham does seem like the best choice at the moment... Like a previous poster said I am actually looking for some validation.

[OperaSoprano]

thanks for the shoutout

it was a hard decision, but i did what i had to do, and have no regrets. i am really excited about fordham. FYI, i'm going for BigLaw, too.

OP, if you are single/don't have a strong family or personal reason to stay in NYC, then go to Penn. i would have loved to go to one of MVP if it were more feasible. good luck with your decision!! i don't think you can really go wrong.

Of course! I didn't want to ID you in case you didn't want any shouting out, but you did all the research, and you are the best example of how to make a difficult decision like this. UVA is wonderful and I'm glad you got to see it, but of course I am happy you are coming here and think you will like Fordham very much.

[OperaSoprano]

Not a knock on Fordham at all, but I think the rebound will have a lagged effect. Meaning, I think the top schools will first see the real gains, then it will trickle downward. I know this may sound douchie, but just my opinion. I just doubt everything will go back to where it was before all at once. That being said, a Fordham degree is awesome for NYC, and the alumni network will certainly help it rebound quicker than most schools outside the T14.

It's not douchey. Our research suggests the same thing, but Fordham is fortunate in that NYC firms don't exactly have to go anywhere to come to our OCI. We all know they fill up at the T14 first, but we are the traditional next stop. It will be interesting to see what happens, and it's still evident that Fordham is the best school outside the T14 for this market. Relative strengths haven't changed, so to speak.

[bk1]

I am married and have strong ties to NYC. In addition, my wife has a good job in New York........... If I were single I think I would definitely head to PENN but Fordham does seem like the best choice at the moment... Like a previous poster said I am actually looking for some validation.

When I responded to your first post, I said Penn but that was due to a misconception. In the OP you said that you had family connections to NYC, to me that meant that you had parents and/or extended family in NYC since you did not mention being married. However, since it is your wife and she has a job in NYC, I think this is a clear choice for Fordham.

[hannah87]

thanks for the shoutout

it was a hard decision, but i did what i had to do, and have no regrets. i am really excited about fordham. FYI, i'm going for BigLaw, too.

OP, if you are single/don't have a strong family or personal reason to stay in NYC, then go to Penn. i would have loved to go to one of MVP if it were more feasible. good luck with your decision!! i don't think you can really go wrong.

Of course! I didn't want to ID you in case you didn't want any shouting out, but you did all the research, and you are the best example of how to make a difficult decision like this. UVA is wonderful and I'm glad you got to see it, but of course I am happy you are coming here and think you will like Fordham very much.

thanks, love . i think i'll like it, too!

[chicoalto0649]

let fordham know that you got into penn. maybe they will give u a free ride.

Anyway t14>t50 in job placement in biglaw according to many legal blogs.

Ahem,

You meant t14> t34

(Future Fordham alumnist here)

[danidancer]

I am married and have strong ties to NYC. In addition, my wife has a good job in New York........... If I were single I think I would definitely head to PENN but Fordham does seem like the best choice at the moment... Like a previous poster said I am actually looking for some validation.

When I responded to your first post, I said Penn but that was due to a misconception. In the OP you said that you had family connections to NYC, to me that meant that you had parents and/or extended family in NYC since you did not mention being married. However, since it is your wife and she has a job in NYC, I think this is a clear choice for Fordham.

In this case, Fordham. Unless your wife would be willing and able to relocate to Philly? Even then, Fordham is a solid choice.

[bk1]

In this case, Fordham. Unless your wife would be willing and able to relocate to Philly? Even then, Fordham is a solid choice.

I would think being married makes the money more valuable as debt could be a significant hindrance towards starting a family? Just a thought from someone who doesn't really know what being married or starting a family entails.

[James Bond]

In this case, Fordham. Unless your wife would be willing and able to relocate to Philly? Even then, Fordham is a solid choice.

I would think being married makes the money more valuable as debt could be a significant hindrance towards starting a family? Just a thought from someone who doesn't really know what being married or starting a family entails.

It's a quandary for sure. Being married means less sex, but starting a family means that you at least have to have it every now and then.

[thechee]

In this case, Fordham. Unless your wife would be willing and able to relocate to Philly? Even then, Fordham is a solid choice.

I would think being married makes the money more valuable as debt could be a significant hindrance towards starting a family? Just a thought from someone who doesn't really know what being married or starting a family entails.

It's a quandary for sure. Being married means less sex, but starting a family means that you at least have to have it every now and then.

Completely untrue.

[motiontodismiss]

Penn. Period. End of story.

[halflink123]

Hey man,

I am glad that you asked this question, because I graduated Fordham in May. Don't listen to all of these people say how Fordham "is a great school." Yeah - it's so great that I don't have a job and I would guess many of my classmates are in the same boat. I send out resumes and no one cares. I go on interviews and no one calls me back.

I hated every fucking minute I spent in the place. Why? The classmates are snobby. The Professors all went to Harvard/Yale/NYU, and because you go to Fordham, they treat you like d*gshit and aren't afraid to show it. Basically, unless you graduate from top X% of the class, you're treated like a second class citizen for the rest of your life. The facilities are crap. Full price tuition is $45K, and every day you feel like you're being nickel and dimed and treated like dirt. I went to undergrad at NYU, and I remember the atmosphere was so different.

BOTTOM LINE: If you go to Fordham, do not graduate in top X% of your class (pick a number), you will HATE YOURSELF, YOU WILL HATE YOUR LIFE, AND YOU WILL REGRET YOUR DECISION FOR THE REST OF YOUR NATURAL F*CKING LIFE.

There is no amount of money that Fordham can throw at you that would change that.

As an aside, I think law schools in general a scam and the system needs to be fixed, because it's broken. I don't know if it makes sense AT ALL to go to law school - you're put in a huge hole. You say you want to work at Big Law - like that is so great? OK go work 120 hour weeks and make your $160K a year which you have to make just to pay of the mounds of debt that these law schools put you into. Get it-you have to make a lot because you owe so much? It's a hamster wheel and a scam, the whole damn system.

[bk1]

Hey man,

I am glad that you asked this question, because I graduated Fordham in May. Don't listen to all of these people say how Fordham "is a great school." Yeah - it's so great that I don't have a job and I would guess many of my classmates are in the same boat. I send out resumes and no one cares. I go on interviews and no one calls me back.

I hated every fucking minute I spent in the place. Why? The classmates are snobby. The Professors all went to Harvard/Yale/NYU, and because you go to Fordham, they treat you like d*gshit and aren't afraid to show it. Basically, unless you graduate from top X% of the class, you're treated like a second class citizen for the rest of your life. The facilities are crap. Full price tuition is $45K, and every day you feel like you're being nickel and dimed and treated like dirt. I went to undergrad at NYU, and I remember the atmosphere was so different.

BOTTOM LINE: If you go to Fordham, do not graduate in top X% of your class (pick a number), you will HATE YOURSELF, YOU WILL HATE YOUR LIFE, AND YOU WILL REGRET YOUR DECISION FOR THE REST OF YOUR NATURAL F*CKING LIFE.

There is no amount of money that Fordham can throw at you that would change that.

As an aside, I think law schools in general a scam and the system needs to be fixed, because it's broken. I don't know if it makes sense AT ALL to go to law school - you're put in a huge hole. You say you want to work at Big Law - like that is so great? OK go work 120 hour weeks and make your $160K a year which you have to make just to pay of the mounds of debt that these law schools put you into. Get it-you have to make a lot because you owe so much? It's a hamster wheel and a scam, the whole damn system.

So can I pick X = 100?

Seriously though, who opened the fucking floodgates from JDU?

[MJMD]

If you had said that you didn't want big law, I would've gone Fordham. Big law is definitely attainable from Fordham, though you'll just have to place better in your class. But if you really want big law, you have a better chance of getting it out of Penn. It all comes down to how badly you want big law, imo.

But whatever you pick you won't be throwing your life away. Your debt coming out of Fordham will be very manageable, even if you don't get big law. You should be able to find something decent in NYC coming from Fordham..., just not something that will necessarily pay you six figures starting.

You will be throwing your life away if you go to Penn, hate it, obsess about all the debt you're accruing and place poorly in your class, if the alternative is going to Fordham and doing really well when unburdened of such worries. Choosing a school based purely on ranking and prestige and how far that will get you is always a bad idea: you have to be confident about excelling wherever you go, but realistic about the kind of pressures you will be under in a given environment.

If you did well on the LSAT, have always wanted to be a lawyer and are really motivated to perform exceptionally well in class, then I might argue for Fordham, because you'll probably get biglaw anyway. But if you're less confident (ironically) I might argue for Penn, as you might never get another chance to go to an Ivy League school. Ultimately, though, the most important thing is that you choose whichever school you think is best for you (not for an entirely hypothetical future career).

[bk1]

You will be throwing your life away if you go to Penn, hate it, obsess about all the debt you're accruing and place poorly in your class, if the alternative is going to Fordham and doing really well when unburdened of such worries. Choosing a school based purely on ranking and prestige and how far that will get you is always a bad idea: you have to be confident about excelling wherever you go, but realistic about the kind of pressures you will be under in a given environment.

If you did well on the LSAT, have always wanted to be a lawyer and are really motivated to perform exceptionally well in class, then I might argue for Fordham, because you'll probably get biglaw anyway. But if you're less confident (ironically) I might argue for Penn, as you might never get another chance to go to an Ivy League school. Ultimately, though, the most important thing is that you choose whichever school you think is best for you (not for an entirely hypothetical future career).

You will be throwing your life away if you go to Fordham, hate it, obsess about the high class rank you need for a job and place poorly in your class, if the alternative is going to Penn and doing really well when unburdened of such worries.

See what I did there? The point is that that is a really poor argument. Sack up, seriously. You have to make a choice one way or the other. If you care more about debt, go to Fordham. If you care more about placement, go to Penn.

Being really motivated won't guarantee you any sort of placement in your class, it isn't a factor so don't let it affect which school you choose.