Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!! Forum

[JOThompson]

If career placement is your largest concern, go to Vanderbilt. It enjoys career prospects similar to the lower T14. It's only three years of your life and a Vandy JD is prestigious enough to take you to the coast, you certainly won't be stuck in Tennessee (I personally think the state is great).

[NayBoer]

Retake and try for T14 this fall.

Take the next year to think about your professional goals. Don't be afraid to reject law school entirely. Just because you're smart and ambitious doesn't mean you need to be a lawyer.

Edit - also take this year to familiarize yourself with the employment risks. In an environment where many JDs work for under 40k, and others can't get legal work at all, a job making 80k is not failing. If that's your metric for failure, you need to reevaluate.

[Stringer Bell]

You obviously haven't done your homework on how these schools place within their regional markets. Everyone on this site just regurgitates the bad advice then have read here, it is this cycle of nonsense. OP knows odds of BigLaw decrease at lower T1, but to say he doesn't have a "good shot" or would be lucky to start at 65K is just incorrect.

Conversely, this site has pixie dust spreaders that think you can automatically attach c/o 2008 and 2009 employment opportunities to c/o 2013. Things are really bad out there. That's not just from the information on this site. That's from talking to attorneys.

[bigben]

If you're passionate about the law, become a lawyer. You will find a job out of UMN (perhaps not a biglaw one). It's a fine regional school and it absolutely dominates Minneapolis.

I know I'll find a job. But if it's some shitlaw job that pays $65-80k a year (and I could make that by being a teacher, and get better benefits and job security and need less schooling and and work less and retire earlier), then me thinks my passion may be displaced

LOL oh man you have not done your homework. Neither of these schools is going to give you a good shot at big law, and outside of big law, you would be lucky to start at 65k. Below 50k is much more likely, and it's not even a guarantee that you will find a job as a lawyer anywhere.

You obviously haven't done your homework on how these schools place within their regional markets. Everyone on this site just regurgitates the bad advice then have read here, it is this cycle of nonsense. OP knows odds of BigLaw decrease at lower T1, but to say he doesn't have a "good shot" or would be lucky to start at 65K is just incorrect.

I don't know how these schools place in big law exactly, but I assume it is less than 30 or 40%. I would not be surprised if it is quite a bit less than that ITE. The only person I would trust to provide more specific estimates would be a 2L or 3L from one of these schools. At any rate, I would not even call 30% a "good shot." And here I am including the regional big law in Minneapolis (Dorsey, Faegre, etc.).

Outside of big law, you are lucky to see a 65k salary (if your goal is to maximize salary like OP). I stand by that statement.

I'm also confident that you could find a non-trivial number of students from these schools who couldn't find any legal employment anywhere, especially not of some very low base-line quality.

[jks289]

You obviously haven't done your homework on how these schools place within their regional markets. Everyone on this site just regurgitates the bad advice then have read here, it is this cycle of nonsense. OP knows odds of BigLaw decrease at lower T1, but to say he doesn't have a "good shot" or would be lucky to start at 65K is just incorrect.

Conversely, this site has pixie dust spreaders that think you can automatically attach c/o 2008 and 2009 employment opportunities to c/o 2013. Things are really bad out there. That's not just from the information on this site. That's from talking to attorneys.

I work in the legal field, so I have routine contact with attorneys from these schools. There is no on saying "Oh you'll be FIINNNE. EVERYONE gets a job!!" But to say that in three years, someone graduating in the top 15-30% (depending on the economy rebound) at UC Davis won't be able to find a BigLaw job in Northern California if they want it and try (no jobs are falling in people's laps these days) isn't true. The trend is going to be towards hiring people for the long haul as opposed to students with the intention of doing a 3 year loan payment stint and then going to the government. And things are really bad out there for a particular type of firm, with a particular type of hiring structure. But those firms are greedy and have short memories. I highly doubt they are going to learn the lesson that 15 associates to every partner is bad news when things get tough. Once the work comes back, and it will because it has to not because I am some eternal optimist, they will return to the billable sweatshop model and the hiring practice that goes with it.

[NayBoer]

I don't know how these schools place in big law exactly, but I assume it is less than 30 or 40%. I would not be surprised if it is quite a bit less than that ITE.

The two schools had somewhat comparable NLJ placement rates last time around - 16.7 versus 19.4.
http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

Class of 2005 put both schools in the mid teens, with Davis over Minn.
http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf

[jks289]

I know I'll find a job. But if it's some shitlaw job that pays $65-80k a year (and I could make that by being a teacher, and get better benefits and job security and need less schooling and and work less and retire earlier), then me thinks my passion may be displaced

LOL oh man you have not done your homework. Neither of these schools is going to give you a good shot at big law, and outside of big law, you would be lucky to start at 65k. Below 50k is much more likely, and it's not even a guarantee that you will find a job as a lawyer anywhere.

You obviously haven't done your homework on how these schools place within their regional markets. Everyone on this site just regurgitates the bad advice then have read here, it is this cycle of nonsense. OP knows odds of BigLaw decrease at lower T1, but to say he doesn't have a "good shot" or would be lucky to start at 65K is just incorrect.

I don't know how these schools place in big law exactly, but I assume it is less than 30 or 40%. I would not be surprised if it is quite a bit less than that ITE. The only person I would trust to provide more specific estimates would be a 2L or 3L from one of these schools. At any rate, I would not even call 30% a "good shot." And here I am including the regional big law in Minneapolis (Dorsey, Faegre, etc.).

Outside of big law, you are lucky to see a 65k salary (if your goal is to maximize salary like OP). I stand by that statement.

I'm also confident that you could find a non-trivial number of students from these schools who couldn't find any legal employment anywhere, especially not of some very low base-line quality.

Ok then part of the disagreement is a question of what is a "good shot." If you are forced to be top ten percent to even get an OCI interview, then I'd say that is a pretty tough thing to count on. But the idea that you have to be mariginally above the median at the class (top 30%), is how it has essentially always been at these schools.

[20160810]

Come to Davis, we're good people.

[bigben]

But to say that in three years, someone graduating in the top 15-30% (depending on the economy rebound) at UC Davis won't be able to find a BigLaw job in Northern California if they want it and try (no jobs are falling in people's laps these days) isn't true.

Me: These schools do not give you a good shot at biglaw.

You: That is wrong, you don't know what you are talking about.

Other guy: ?

You: It is at least possible to get big law from this school, provided that your GPA is top 15% and you try really hard to get it.

[jks289]

But to say that in three years, someone graduating in the top 15-30% (depending on the economy rebound) at UC Davis won't be able to find a BigLaw job in Northern California if they want it and try (no jobs are falling in people's laps these days) isn't true.

Me: These schools do not give you a good shot at biglaw.

You: That is wrong, you don't know what you are talking about.

Other guy: ?

You: If you graduate in the top 15% and try really hard to get big law, you can do it from this school.

"15-30%" I'm trying to acknowledge something bad could happen in the economy for this point forward. But knowing a fair amount about the ACTUAL SACRAMENTO/SF legal market, UC Davis students in the top of their class (I will continue to say top30%) will likely be ok after last years massacre. The school has a PI focus, so the placement numbers are partly influenced by people at the top not wanting BigLaw. But you're right, your opinion formed on.... this message board? Placement rankings without context? USNWR rankings? is probably a lot more valid.

[FreddyBigShot]

Come to Davis, we're good people.

Thoughts on employment prospects in 2013 for those, say graduating at median? Any salary info from recent classes, you're classes?

[FreddyBigShot]

And I'm not BigLaw or bust. I realize my odds aren't good at getting it, even if I go to Vandy (which is why I won't be). I don't need $160,000 per year. However, if I spend three years of my life, go into debt, and can't even find a job making $60-80k per year, then I just destroyed my life. I mean, no one here has dispelled the notion that there are grads from a T20 (UMN) who graduated pre-ITE, that are mkaing $18-30k per year, like someone in this thread claims. That is terrifying.

[keg411]

And I'm not BigLaw or bust. I realize my odds aren't good at getting it, even if I go to Vandy (which is why I won't be). I don't need $160,000 per year. However, if I spend three years of my life, go into debt, and can't even find a job making $60-80k per year, then I just destroyed my life. I mean, no one here has dispelled the notion that there are grads from a T20 (UMN) who graduated pre-ITE, that are mkaing $18-30k per year, like someone in this thread claims. That is terrifying.

Because there probably are some (and there are probably some working non-legal jobs). I'd even venture to say there are even a few (though much smaller number) of T14 students that end up on the very low end of the salary scale (heck, there are unemployed Harvard 3L's; they aren't going to be making bank even with H on the resume). You aren't getting a guarantee of 60-80k/year at any school (save maybe Yale) unless you have massive connections.

[FreddyBigShot]

And I'm not BigLaw or bust. I realize my odds aren't good at getting it, even if I go to Vandy (which is why I won't be). I don't need $160,000 per year. However, if I spend three years of my life, go into debt, and can't even find a job making $60-80k per year, then I just destroyed my life. I mean, no one here has dispelled the notion that there are grads from a T20 (UMN) who graduated pre-ITE, that are mkaing $18-30k per year, like someone in this thread claims. That is terrifying.

Because there probably are some (and there are probably some working non-legal jobs). I'd even venture to say there are even a few (though much smaller number) of T14 students that end up on the very low end of the salary scale (heck, there are unemployed Harvard 3L's; they aren't going to be making bank even with H on the resume). You aren't getting a guarantee of 60-80k/year at any school (save maybe Yale) unless you have massive connections.

I know. I'm just assuming that I'll be able to graduate at median. I mean, median at a striong regional T30 (like UMN and Davis), has to be alright. Right? At least I thought at one time If I graduate toward the bottom of my class, then I know I'm fucked and military here I come!!! (and not the jag corps, either).

[Stringer Bell]

And I'm not BigLaw or bust. I realize my odds aren't good at getting it, even if I go to Vandy (which is why I won't be). I don't need $160,000 per year. However, if I spend three years of my life, go into debt, and can't even find a job making $60-80k per year, then I just destroyed my life. I mean, no one here has dispelled the notion that there are grads from a T20 (UMN) who graduated pre-ITE, that are mkaing $18-30k per year, like someone in this thread claims. That is terrifying.

I don't totally understand your position. You earlier said you would look at 65-80k starting out as a failure, but that you are not "biglaw or bust." Those two positions do not seem compatible.

[Borhas]

The one other thing that also makes me think about UMN is that I’d like to someday get into politics. Not only do/have UMN grads dominate MN in a way that the grads of few schools do, but as an Olympia Snowe/Bob Casey/Arlen Specter-style moderate (I’m a registered independent) I’d fit in perfect with the Minnesota people. Davis doesn’t do too well on the political front it seems, however. Plus, as a moderate I’d probably be viewed as Rush Limbaugh by the people of NorCal

However, isn't this getting a bit ahead of myself?

dude, flip a coin and get it over with (if you had my personality)

If I had your type of outlook, I would follow Nayboer's advice and retake the LSAT. You may fit in better at a T14

[hellokitty]

Go with your gut.

[NayBoer]

If making 80k is a failure, and you don't have a family member that's going to hand you that salary post-JD, then you are basically biglaw or bust.

[BoomBoom1986]

I'm considering Hastings and Davis right now and I'd give my right arm if I knew I could graduate with a $80k gig. I don't need or even want BigLaw, but I also don't want PI or a $40k shitlaw gig. I spend half my time trying to estimate what a median graduate of Hastings/Davis can expect to make these days. I still have no idea

[General Tso]

You want to work in California, the schools are the same price, and you loved Davis, why are you even thinking about Minnesota?

agree with this one

[FreddyBigShot]

Thanks for your help guys! It's going to be Davis, get off of UVA's waitlist, go back and do pre-med requirements or retake LSAT. UMN is no longer an option (or won't be in two hours, anyway).

What are your thoughts on retaking? I have a 3.95 GPA. I was a liberal arts major at a state school, though. I got a 163 LSAT, which is what I was practicing. I studied by essentially taking 16 practice tests, taking a Kaplan class, and doing a few extra logic games. Reading comp was my strong suit - pretty mediocre at everything else

[09042014]

If making 80k is a failure, and you don't have a family member that's going to hand you that salary post-JD, then you are basically biglaw or bust.

In which case retake/reappy.

[lt0826]

Go to Davis man. Its what I would do. I actually visited the school last year when I was in cali. Kind of secluded but if you like it done deal. One way i make decisions is flip a coin with a decision on each side. If one is picked for you and you dont care go there. If it lands heads and you still kind of feel like you want tails then your mind is telling you tales. I have a feeling you will be at Davis though. Enjoy man.

LOL. Thought I was the only one who did this. So true though.

[lt0826]

The one other thing that also makes me think about UMN is that I’d like to someday get into politics. Not only do/have UMN grads dominate MN in a way that the grads of few schools do, but as an Olympia Snowe/Bob Casey/Arlen Specter-style moderate (I’m a registered independent) I’d fit in perfect with the Minnesota people. Davis doesn’t do too well on the political front it seems, however. Plus, as a moderate I’d probably be viewed as Rush Limbaugh by the people of NorCal

However, isn't this getting a bit ahead of myself?

You haven't been to the suburbs of Sacramento. Roseville/Folsom/EDH is Republican country - though not evangelical style republican like in some places.

[lt0826]

Thanks for your help guys! It's going to be Davis, get off of UVA's waitlist, go back and do pre-med requirements or retake LSAT. UMN is no longer an option (or won't be in two hours, anyway).

What are your thoughts on retaking? I have a 3.95 GPA. I was a liberal arts major at a state school, though. I got a 163 LSAT, which is what I was practicing. I studied by essentially taking 16 practice tests, taking a Kaplan class, and doing a few extra logic games. Reading comp was my strong suit - pretty mediocre at everything else

Try Testmasters. The Powerscore material for logic games is strong as well. If nothing else with that GPA you may be able to get more $$ at the same schools with a higher LSAT or possibly get into Boalt. Might be good to retake and also to think through your decision and make sure law school is what you really want.