HYSCCN Forum

[ravens20]

As you can see many of these firms pay six figures and are not on the nlj 250, but are irrelevant based on your "definition".
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insid ... l?state=NC



Dear Bitch/Renzo,

You clearly didn't know what you were talking about when you said that the nlj250 contained every big law firm in the country. to make matters wose you tried to change your claims to say that "Oh well actually biglaw is only firms that pay 160K and have more than 200 attorneys" to cover yourself. You heavily overestimate what you know--which apparently outside of NYC data is next to nothing. You have failed to prove what I said about there being a substantial amount of firms that exist outside of the nlj250 that pay six figure salaries as incorrect, you then proceeded with (very poorly thought out--not surprising) ad hominemns to back up your point. HTMFH

The thing about Keker not being an employment option for anyone because of it's size is really the dumbest thing I've heard you say. Especially since they do OCI at multiple top schools....just because you can't get something doesn't mean other people can't. I think you are projecting your (many) failures onto others.

P.S I'm not sure why you consider an online argument "an epic fight" but then again with an avatar like that I have an idea why....

PSS I don't like you either, but it's only because you're a bitch though-- no other particular reasons.

Wait a minute he never said that firms that weren't biglaw were somehow "irrelevant." Don't put words in people's mouths. All he said was that smaller firms that didn't pay market rate weren't biglaw. Nobody in their right mind would believe that only biglaw firms were "relevant".

Moreover, just because Keker has OCI at multiple schools that doesn't make it a biglaw firm. I mean at some point there has to be a cutoff based on the size of a firm as to what we classify as biglaw. As I pointed out in a previous post, and as Rayiner did in his, that doesn't mean that such firms are worst than biglaw (frankly in many ways they are better) but just that firms that pay market rate are not necessarily biglaw. Of course this calls into question whether the term biglaw has any real meaning (this is another question entirely which I attempt to tackle in my previous post).

Finally, how do you know what firms Renzo could get into? Not to mention that his ability to consider a firm as an employment option has no bearing on his opinion regarding that option. I mean, have you gotten an OCI interview at Keker to be so qualified to discuss it? Argue with logic not by calling posters who disagree with you a "bitch" (although to be fair he also called you an "assclown").

[studylaw7]

Is the HYSCCN cluster that much better than the rest of the T10? Now are the prospects coming out of MVPB (suck it B) significantly worse than HYSCCN? It seems I read a lot about how awesome HYSCCN is and it seems kinda weird that it's top 6 v. top 10. I would think that the gap wouldn't be that ridiculous but drop some wisdom on me TLS.

this is the correct way to look at it :

for prestige -
HYS >>>> CCN >> rest of top 14

(Cali is a different story because Boalt would be ranked much higher)

for placement
HYS >>> CCN > MVPB > rest of top 14

(in reality the placement of HYS is not significantly different except for clerkships and some other factors. Also note that the gap between MVPB and the rest of the Top 14 is much smaller than the gap between CCN and MVPB, but it is hard to portray that without being misleading with the '>'s)

In no kind of ranking are CCN mentioned in the same breath as HYS, not based on prestige, not based on placement, not based on anything. I actually think it's funny that you used the HYSCCN acronym, which tells me you are probably from CCN or are about to be.

[GeePee]

On autoadmit there is also someone who claims to be a harvard 3L who is out of luck. I indirectly know of one other who is jobless there as a 2L. I do think the Harvard/CCN gap is over exaggerated. On the other hand, I think smaller schools that are not as reliant on the NY market maybe weren't hurt as much. I'm willing to bet stanford students are better off than Harvard students, and Chicago students fared better than the two new york peer schools for that reason. Also, I just get that sense from posts here and auto admit. On autoadmit, there are a couple threads full of jobless 2Ls and 3Ls, but they are all Columbia and NYU.

These boards are such a poor source of information, though. Everyone here is making a lot of totally blind assumptions, which simply get repeated over and over until it seems like common knowledge. I am waiting for the stats to come out later this year before any decisions get made.

For the record, Kurama may tick you off, but you lose in my book when you resort to name-calling and foul language. If you don't have enough faith that your arguments stand on their own, then I don't have any faith in your reasoning either.

Proportionally, NY has been hurt far less than some of the other major markets. I'd much rather be looking for a job in NY than D.C. right now, for example. I think the fact that the Harvard out-of-lucks recognize that they are the exception rather than the rule shows the advantage that H has over CCN, even in this economy. While a majority will still get excellent jobs ITE, the sizable minority will not at CCN. However, at Harvard even those who have straight P's recognize that many of their peers have gotten jobs with the same grades. I don't really have any insight into the student bodies at CCN, but through teh interwebz (admittedly, not the greatest source) the need to be top 2/3 seems to exist, and the need to definitely be at least top 1/3 to be comfortable is also prevalent.

I think that the information on the board is mostly based on fact (or at least the well-informed opinions of current students in the job market and a polling of their peers), although over time it gets twisted from its immediate significance. Furthermore, the "stats" are often selection-biased and hard to sift through, making conclusions based on these metrics almost equally shady. People here generally do ok with the information to which they have access.

[The Brainalist]

There are actually some poorly thought out insults. An a--clown doesn't actually sound that bad. It combines two things I really like. Kind of like calling someone old a dinosaur-That's not an insult, dinosaurs are AWESOME!

[mallard]

It's not true that HYS outstrips CCN only in clerkships. The tier retains a significant advantage in academic placement, government hiring and DC in general, boutique-y type places, and (I'm pretty sure) California.

[hiro86]

I didn't know that sharing some relevant but not perfect stats would lead to an online war. However, I like it.

[ravens20]

There are actually some poorly thought out insults. An a--clown doesn't actually sound that bad. It combines two things I really like. Kind of like calling someone old a dinosaur-That's not an insult, dinosaurs are AWESOME!

hahaha

[dresden doll]

On autoadmit there is also someone who claims to be a harvard 3L who is out of luck. I indirectly know of one other who is jobless there as a 2L. I do think the Harvard/CCN gap is over exaggerated. On the other hand, I think smaller schools that are not as reliant on the NY market maybe weren't hurt as much. I'm willing to bet stanford students are better off than Harvard students, and Chicago students fared better than the two new york peer schools for that reason. Also, I just get that sense from posts here and auto admit. On autoadmit, there are a couple threads full of jobless 2Ls and 3Ls, but they are all Columbia and NYU.

These boards are such a poor source of information, though. Everyone here is making a lot of totally blind assumptions, which simply get repeated over and over until it seems like common knowledge. I am waiting for the stats to come out later this year before any decisions get made.

For the record, Kurama may tick you off, but you lose in my book when you resort to name-calling and foul language. If you don't have enough faith that your arguments stand on their own, then I don't have any faith in your reasoning either.

A few insults here and there hardly signify that the insult - wielder isn't making an otherwise valid point.

[Kohinoor]

There are actually some poorly thought out insults. An a--clown doesn't actually sound that bad. It combines two things I really like. Kind of like calling someone old a dinosaur-That's not an insult, dinosaurs are AWESOME!

I like calling people retarded shitbags. No way to not take offense!

[RVP11]

for prestige -
HYS >>>> CCN >> rest of top 14

(Cali is a different story because Boalt would be ranked much higher)

for placement
HYS >> CCN > MVPB > rest of top 14

I actually think you have this backwards. Though there's a gap between MVPB and DCN in terms of prestige, I don't think the placement gap is significant (if it exists at all).

[studylaw7]

It's not true that HYS outstrips CCN only in clerkships. The tier retains a significant advantage in academic placement, government hiring and DC in general, boutique-y type places, and (I'm pretty sure) California.

yes those other reasons are also part of teh equation. I should probably put another '>' sign between HYS and CCN for placement.

[Renzo]

This is an epic example of the nonsensical attempt at arguing that irks me so much.

Dear Bitch/Renzo,

You clearly didn't know what you were talking about when you said that the nlj250 contained every big law firm in the country. to make matters worse you tried to change your claims to say that "Oh well actually biglaw is only firms that pay 160K and have more than 200 attorneys" to cover yourself. You heavily overestimate what you know--which apparently outside of NYC data is next to nothing. You have failed to prove what I said about there being a substantial amount of firms that exist outside of the nlj250 that pay six figure salaries as incorrect, you then proceeded with (very poorly thought out--not surprising) ad hominemns to back up your point. HTMFH

The thing about Keker not being an employment option for anyone because of it's size is really the dumbest thing I've heard you say. Especially since they do OCI at multiple top schools....just because you can't get something doesn't mean other people can't. I think you are projecting your (many) failures onto others.

P.S I'm not sure why you consider an online argument "an epic fight" but then again with an avatar like that I have an idea why....

PSS I don't like you either, but it's only because you're a bitch though-- no other particular reasons.

Ok, this is my point. I said: "six-figure salaries don't equal biglaw, there are lots of non-biglaw jobs that pay more than 100k, but this doesn't make them Biglaw" You said: "BITCH I ALREADY TOLD YOU THERE ARE JOBS OUTSIDE OF BIG FIRMS THAT PAY SIX FIGURES" See how you didn't address my argument?

You say: "Kecker (and other lit boutiques) pay market wage" I say: "Yes, but they only hire 1-2 people a year, and there aren't that many similar firms, so those are a tiny fraction of the job market and aren't particularly relevant to defining "biglaw." You answer: "That's dumb" See how you didn't address the argument?

I say: "There NLJ 250 are by definition the biggest firms, since its a list of the biggest firms. Many of those "biggest" firms don't pay six figures, so it stands to reason even if there are smaller firms that pay six figures, there are less of those jobs since they are by definition at firms who employ less attorneys. You say: "AD HOMINEMS!!!" See a pattern yet?

Then you proceed to put words in my mouth, as usual, by saying I claimed this was an "epic fight." Show me where I said that.
Then show me where I said "Oh well actually biglaw is only firms that pay 160K and have more than 200 attorneys"
While your at it, show me where I said the nlj250 contained every big law firm in the country--I did say it contains the biggest 250 firms, since that's the fucking definition of the NLJ 250. Do you disagree?


Oh, and

Wait a minute he never said that firms that weren't biglaw were somehow "irrelevant." Don't put words in people's mouths. All he said was that smaller firms that didn't pay market rate weren't biglaw. Nobody in their right mind would believe that only biglaw firms were "relevant".

Show me where I said that.

[dresden doll]

for prestige -
HYS >>>> CCN >> rest of top 14

(Cali is a different story because Boalt would be ranked much higher)

for placement
HYS >> CCN > MVPB > rest of top 14

I actually think you have this backwards. Though there's a gap between MVPB and DCN in terms of prestige, I don't think the placement gap is significant (if it exists at all).

Agreed. And I'll be damned if I think that there's much of a difference between MVPB and CCN for that matter.

HYS certainly outstrips CCN, but I'm not at all convinced that CCN really outstrips MVPB by all that much.

[The Brainalist]

A few insults here and there hardly signify that the insult - wielder isn't making an otherwise valid point.

With no one citing anything at all for their propositions, you may have to treat the speaker as the source. It the source appears unreliable, as someone who can't control her temper appears, you don't tend to believe much of what they say.

It being the case that this site is little more than an echo chamber of H>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CCN, ITE without citing to almost anything at all, then, yeah, the insult hurlers don't really get much credibility in their arguments. You don't believe they have the ethics to refrain from lying or exaggerating when advantageous, or just to sound smart.


I could swear I read that New York was hit hardest, but I'm still looking for where I read it. I found this, at least saying that it was among the hardest hit, but not very compelling.
--LinkRemoved--

[studylaw7]

for prestige -
HYS >>>> CCN >> rest of top 14

(Cali is a different story because Boalt would be ranked much higher)

for placement
HYS >> CCN > MVPB > rest of top 14

I actually think you have this backwards. Though there's a gap between MVPB and DCN in terms of prestige, I don't think the placement gap is significant (if it exists at all).

I don't think there is any prestige gap between schools ranked 7-14 and if it exists, it is insignificant. The only people who think that way are the ones at MVPB but then even among MVP there is petty bickering about who is better. It's meaningless - the only acronyms that should be used are T3, T6 and T14. I think there a small gap between employment prospects at MVPB, though, compared to Duke, Cornell, Northwestern and Georgetown. The job statistics may not show it when you are just looking at percentage of employed, but I think MVPB grads tend to get more of the top jobs.

[ravens20]

for prestige -
HYS >>>> CCN >> rest of top 14

(Cali is a different story because Boalt would be ranked much higher)

for placement
HYS >> CCN > MVPB > rest of top 14

I actually think you have this backwards. Though there's a gap between MVPB and DCN in terms of prestige, I don't think the placement gap is significant (if it exists at all).

Agreed. And I'll be damned if I think that there's much of a difference between MVPB and CCN for that matter.

HYS certainly outstrips CCN, but I'm not at all convinced that CCN really outstrips MVPB by all that much.

Yea I feel the same way and I'm planning on attending one of CCN.

[The Brainalist]

It's not true that HYS outstrips CCN only in clerkships. The tier retains a significant advantage in academic placement, government hiring and DC in general, boutique-y type places, and (I'm pretty sure) California.

yes those other reasons are also part of teh equation. I should probably put another '>' sign between HYS and CCN for placement.

I honestly don't care if the cites are outdated BUT CITE SOMETHING PEOPLE!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyIwa69Opuc

Someone from the NLJ says that for 2008 the firms recruited basically at the same rate from the same law schools as they did the year before, despite the nosedive in the market that started that year.

[kurama20]

On autoadmit there is also someone who claims to be a harvard 3L who is out of luck. I indirectly know of one other who is jobless there as a 2L. I do think the Harvard/CCN gap is over exaggerated. On the other hand, I think smaller schools that are not as reliant on the NY market maybe weren't hurt as much. I'm willing to bet stanford students are better off than Harvard students, and Chicago students fared better than the two new york peer schools for that reason. Also, I just get that sense from posts here and auto admit. On autoadmit, there are a couple threads full of jobless 2Ls and 3Ls, but they are all Columbia and NYU.

These boards are such a poor source of information, though. Everyone here is making a lot of totally blind assumptions, which simply get repeated over and over until it seems like common knowledge. I am waiting for the stats to come out later this year before any decisions get made.

For the record, Kurama may tick you off, but you lose in my book when you resort to name-calling and foul language. If you don't have enough faith that your arguments stand on their own, then I don't have any faith in your reasoning either.

A few insults here and there hardly signify that the insult - wielder isn't making an otherwise valid point.

That's the problem though, the wielder isn't making an otherwise valid point. There just throwing out (pretty poor) insults based off of their personal opinions, and haven't cited close to anything. What's worse is that they are making up their own definitions of things, then trying to base their point off of that. He's also using his own personal preferences to make claims about placement abilty. So since he's not interested in non NYC firms or litigation focused firms then suddenly placement into those avenues don't matter. And frankly yes there is something wrong with throwing out personal insults into your argument when no one has done that to you, especially when you are so poor at it and you know that you would never have the gall to do this in real life.

If you know that you are a coward and too weak to take having your own poor insults thrown back at you then you should just not initiate that method to begin with. Renzo doesn't realize that just because he can be a Bitch doesn't mean it's a good idea to do so. He should have just disagreed with my comments and left it at that. He didn't need to start with the poorly thought out insults.

[dresden doll]

for prestige -
HYS >>>> CCN >> rest of top 14

(Cali is a different story because Boalt would be ranked much higher)

for placement
HYS >> CCN > MVPB > rest of top 14

I actually think you have this backwards. Though there's a gap between MVPB and DCN in terms of prestige, I don't think the placement gap is significant (if it exists at all).

Agreed. And I'll be damned if I think that there's much of a difference between MVPB and CCN for that matter.

HYS certainly outstrips CCN, but I'm not at all convinced that CCN really outstrips MVPB by all that much.

Yea I feel the same way and I'm planning on attending one of CCN.

And I attend one of CCN. Good luck to us.

[02082010]

HYSCC is still TCR.

[mallard]

Any of the T10 can place as well as CCN in a specific area, but strengths start to get very specialized once you get past CCN. Penn places well in biglaw, Virginia places well in clerkships and government gigs, Berkeley places well in IP and other boutiquey stuff (and in California generally), and Michigan does well in public interest and academia. But none of them have the across-the-board strength of CCN in those areas (not to mention HYS).

[studylaw7]

for prestige -
HYS >>>> CCN >> rest of top 14

(Cali is a different story because Boalt would be ranked much higher)

for placement
HYS >> CCN > MVPB > rest of top 14

I actually think you have this backwards. Though there's a gap between MVPB and DCN in terms of prestige, I don't think the placement gap is significant (if it exists at all).

Agreed. And I'll be damned if I think that there's much of a difference between MVPB and CCN for that matter.

HYS certainly outstrips CCN, but I'm not at all convinced that CCN really outstrips MVPB by all that much.

for placement, CCN definitely has an advantage over MVPB.

for prestige, there is also a gap. prestige is largely a function of student quality. the student quality of MVPB is much closer to DCNG than it is to CCN.

you must be attending a 7-10 school.

[Veyron]

That Kurama fellow sounds kinda dumb. However, this thread has led to an interesting discussion over what qualifies as biglaw. This has actually created problems for me as I keep asking people about NYU's placement in west coast Biglaw. People think that I am referring exclusively to CA but I am actually more interested in Mountain West placement stats. I don't really know how to phrase the question. If I ask, "what are the employment prospects out of CCN for Mountain West Biglaw" people get confused. There is all of 1 firm in Phoenix that pays 160k and it has all of 8 people working at it. Than again, there are lots of firms paying 90k that qualify as Midlaw, and I don't want people to get confused and think I am talking about them. I think biglaw definitions have to be regional. In AZ, any firm (NJL 250 or not) that pays 125 or so is considered to be biglaw. In nyc, I imagine that 145 doesn't make you biglaw, and that if you are a small firm paying 160k, you are considered to be a "boutique" (which very well may be equally or more prestigious than BIGLAW). Hence biglaw in NYC/Chi/DC/LA would have to be a large firm paying 160k.

edit: Renzo, you have any idea about where I would have to be in NYU's class to get Mountain West BIGLAW according to my definition (assuming solid ties)?

[showNprove]

.

[Veyron]

Prestige Tiers:
YHS
CC
NMVB
P
DGC
NT

I have never in my life seen this breakdown. It appears to be wholly made up. The only thread I can detect is that it constitutes not so subtle V trolling.

ed