Class of 2016 Employment Statistics by School Forum

[Johann]

Lawyers always arguing and ripping apart instead of trying to learn and build an understanding. Throughout all the argument no one has addressed the implied statement that if you really believe those numbers are not self selection/due to different legal market opps, the only way you can explain them is to say that Michigan is regarded as a worse school than Cornell in law firm circles and judges.

If you're prepared to make that argument, go ahead. (But it'd be a dumb argument that V15 partner would quickly dispel). If you aren't, you have to have an explanation.

[BoyJord]

UVA, Duke, and Penn need to be elevated into CCN tier. It's now YSH, CCNDPV and then NCMB.

Sorry but we cannot consider your recommendation since you're enrolling/enrolled at UVA.

[poptart123]

bump because i am entertained with this thread

[bearsfan23]

The C being Columbia

DPVCCCN?

HYSChicago, DVPNCC, MBN

What leads you to presume Columbia's numbers will fall into the second category?

Historically its always been SHCC (Yale is an outlier but for its own reasons) in their own tier in terms of BL+FC with Penn as occasionally joining. Columbia has often been in the top position.

I'm just trolling, I really think it's more like Y S HCC. I do think that Chicago offers better access to academia/clerkships that can't be attributed to self-selection.

It's all those damn right wing FedSoc connections (by which I mean Chicago is 10 % right wing instead of 5 %)

Chicago is a lot more than 10% right wing. FedSoc is huge, comparatively, here.

I'd say it's probably closer to 25%, and it probably is a major reason we always outperform Columbia in clerkships (just looking at where the 2016 grads are clerking, it seems like 1/2 of the COA ones are for conservative/conservative leaning judges)

[cron1834]

Lawyers always arguing and ripping apart instead of trying to learn and build an understanding. Throughout all the argument no one has addressed the implied statement that if you really believe those numbers are not self selection/due to different legal market opps, the only way you can explain them is to say that Michigan is regarded as a worse school than Cornell in law firm circles and judges.

If you're prepared to make that argument, go ahead. (But it'd be a dumb argument that V15 partner would quickly dispel). If you aren't, you have to have an explanation.

Even in NYC, no partners would agree with that argument.

I struggle to understand why it's so hard for some TLSers to grasp this. I turned down multiple V50 NYC offers to do non-NYC biglaw. I also applied to SSC in my home state, but didn't apply for a fed clerkship. It's really not that difficult to process that some people are NYC biglaw at all costs, some are not, and they self-select school choice accordingly (to some degree). The data is obviously going to reflect the distinction. It doesn't mean you can't get some generic NYC vault offer from Michigan. Christ.

The 20-to-1 Michigan-to-Cornell Skadden Fellow ratio is also telling. Hell, even Michigan State, which barely has a law school, produced two more of them than Cornell over the last 5 years. Do people really not see that as telling re: self-selection within the T14?

[star fox]

Lawyers always arguing and ripping apart instead of trying to learn and build an understanding. Throughout all the argument no one has addressed the implied statement that if you really believe those numbers are not self selection/due to different legal market opps, the only way you can explain them is to say that Michigan is regarded as a worse school than Cornell in law firm circles and judges.

If you're prepared to make that argument, go ahead. (But it'd be a dumb argument that V15 partner would quickly dispel). If you aren't, you have to have an explanation.

Could part of it be self-selection out of bidding NYC firms that doesn't account for self-selection out of BigLaw entirely. I agree that it's silly to think hiring committees are looking at Cornell and Michigan differently.

[proteinshake]

maybe it's cause they play with play doh http://abovethelaw.com/2016/11/t14-law- ... ed-pssies/

[existentialcrisis]

Lawyers always arguing and ripping apart instead of trying to learn and build an understanding. Throughout all the argument no one has addressed the implied statement that if you really believe those numbers are not self selection/due to different legal market opps, the only way you can explain them is to say that Michigan is regarded as a worse school than Cornell in law firm circles and judges.

If you're prepared to make that argument, go ahead. (But it'd be a dumb argument that V15 partner would quickly dispel). If you aren't, you have to have an explanation.

Could part of it be self-selection out of bidding NYC firms that doesn't account for self-selection out of BigLaw entirely. I agree that it's silly to think hiring committees are looking at Cornell and Michigan differently.

Although generally, I'd say the less you bid NYC, the more likely you are to strike out, no? Obviously leaving out people with great grades.

[Hikikomorist]

The C being Columbia

DPVCCCN?

HYSChicago, DVPNCC, MBN

What leads you to presume Columbia's numbers will fall into the second category?

Historically its always been SHCC (Yale is an outlier but for its own reasons) in their own tier in terms of BL+FC with Penn as occasionally joining. Columbia has often been in the top position.

I'm just trolling, I really think it's more like Y S HCC. I do think that Chicago offers better access to academia/clerkships that can't be attributed to self-selection.

At times like these, I wish brut were still around.

[Johann]

Lawyers always arguing and ripping apart instead of trying to learn and build an understanding. Throughout all the argument no one has addressed the implied statement that if you really believe those numbers are not self selection/due to different legal market opps, the only way you can explain them is to say that Michigan is regarded as a worse school than Cornell in law firm circles and judges.

If you're prepared to make that argument, go ahead. (But it'd be a dumb argument that V15 partner would quickly dispel). If you aren't, you have to have an explanation.

Could part of it be self-selection out of bidding NYC firms that doesn't account for self-selection out of BigLaw entirely. I agree that it's silly to think hiring committees are looking at Cornell and Michigan differently.

Absolutely. New York is a humongous legal market. If you self select it of that, you're going to have a tougher go. So yes maybe Michigan has some people work jobs they themselves consider less than desirable but that's not michigans failing so much as the risk you take of opting out of the legal hub that serves the entire globe.

[Johann]

But if you want biglaw and aren't comfortable working in NYC, you probably should not go to law school period. B school is what you should do.

[Hikikomorist]

But if you want biglaw and aren't comfortable working in NYC, you probably should not go to law school period. B school is what you should do.

Yeah, my main source of confusion is what Michigan students are thinking. They presumably want to work biglaw somewhere. Most major legal markets have Michigan-level law schools servicing them, or at least one that's closer than Michigan.

[trebekismyhero]

But if you want biglaw and aren't comfortable working in NYC, you probably should not go to law school period. B school is what you should do.

I think that's a little overdone. If you are at NU, UC, or Michigan for that matter and want Chicago, you're pretty likely to get it. Is it as easy as NYC no, but still more likely than not.

[star fox]

But if you want biglaw and aren't comfortable working in NYC, you probably should not go to law school period. B school is what you should do.

This is true, and yet everywhere hundreds if not thousands of law students make their bid lists with no NYC or only token ultra-elite NYC firms on there.

[Johann]

But if you want biglaw and aren't comfortable working in NYC, you probably should not go to law school period. B school is what you should do.

I think that's a little overdone. If you are at NU, UC, or Michigan for that matter and want Chicago, you're pretty likely to get it. Is it as easy as NYC no, but still more likely than not.

It's a tad overdone. But in the event the economy is rescinding or contracting, New York is the hub and will always be the hub. I'm not saying you have to be gung ho about New York but if you absolutely wouldn't step for there for any amount of time, business school will be a FAR better ROI.

[Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash]

Charlottesville to D.C. Is 2.5 hours; Durham to dc is 4 hours and atlanta is 6. Just a poor argument

C-ville to Dc is 2.5 hours by car, and you have to drive because it's over an hour to any airport.

Rdu to DCA is 45 minutes.....

Of course none of this matters because this is the 21st century and geographic location is hardly a limit to travel. What is and isn't a feeder should not be based on distance

[grades??]

Charlottesville to D.C. Is 2.5 hours; Durham to dc is 4 hours and atlanta is 6. Just a poor argument

C-ville to Dc is 2.5 hours by car, and you have to drive because it's over an hour to any airport.

Rdu to DCA is 45 minutes.....

Of course none of this matters because this is the 21st century and geographic location is hardly a limit to travel. What is and isn't a feeder should not be based on distance

Ive done both multiple times. It takes me less time driving from Duke to RDU (10 minutes), park/security/check bag (20 minutes), wait for flight (about 30), fly (45 minutes) to DC, and then grab an uber. All in all about 2ish hours. Charlottesville usually takes 3 hours with normal traffic, but catch bad traffic, and it can be longer. Flying from Durham actually saves time.

A big benefit of Duke versus UVA is Duke is 10 minutes from RDU. Catch a ton of flights to DC, Atlanta, NY, etc. It takes over a hour from UVA to the airport in Richmond.

But agree, it doesn't really matter. Ive never taken an uber from UVA to Richmond airport however, can't be cheap. It is cheap from Duke to RDU.

[Hikikomorist]

Are we seriously arguing about traffic patterns?

[UVAIce]

Charlottesville to D.C. Is 2.5 hours; Durham to dc is 4 hours and atlanta is 6. Just a poor argument

C-ville to Dc is 2.5 hours by car, and you have to drive because it's over an hour to any airport.

Rdu to DCA is 45 minutes.....

Of course none of this matters because this is the 21st century and geographic location is hardly a limit to travel. What is and isn't a feeder should not be based on distance

Ive done both multiple times. It takes me less time driving from Duke to RDU (10 minutes), park/security/check bag (20 minutes), wait for flight (about 30), fly (45 minutes) to DC, and then grab an uber. All in all about 2ish hours. Charlottesville usually takes 3 hours with normal traffic, but catch bad traffic, and it can be longer. Flying from Durham actually saves time.

A big benefit of Duke versus UVA is Duke is 10 minutes from RDU. Catch a ton of flights to DC, Atlanta, NY, etc. It takes over a hour from UVA to the airport in Richmond.

But agree, it doesn't really matter. Ive never taken an uber from UVA to Richmond airport however, can't be cheap. It is cheap from Duke to RDU.

Why not fly out of Charlottesville? There is an airport there. While the DC firms expect you to drive or take the train, all the NY firms flew callbacks out of Cville.

[grades??]

Charlottesville to D.C. Is 2.5 hours; Durham to dc is 4 hours and atlanta is 6. Just a poor argument

C-ville to Dc is 2.5 hours by car, and you have to drive because it's over an hour to any airport.

Rdu to DCA is 45 minutes.....

Of course none of this matters because this is the 21st century and geographic location is hardly a limit to travel. What is and isn't a feeder should not be based on distance

Ive done both multiple times. It takes me less time driving from Duke to RDU (10 minutes), park/security/check bag (20 minutes), wait for flight (about 30), fly (45 minutes) to DC, and then grab an uber. All in all about 2ish hours. Charlottesville usually takes 3 hours with normal traffic, but catch bad traffic, and it can be longer. Flying from Durham actually saves time.

A big benefit of Duke versus UVA is Duke is 10 minutes from RDU. Catch a ton of flights to DC, Atlanta, NY, etc. It takes over a hour from UVA to the airport in Richmond.

But agree, it doesn't really matter. Ive never taken an uber from UVA to Richmond airport however, can't be cheap. It is cheap from Duke to RDU.

Why not fly out of Charlottesville? There is an airport there. While the DC firms expect you to drive or take the train, all the NY firms flew callbacks out of Cville.

Ive never had to fly Cville to NYC so idk. All my flights when I was working were from the south to Cville. Always had to connect, unlike at RDU.

[Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash]

Are we seriously arguing about traffic patterns?

We shouldn't be, but if that's the argument being posited

[cron1834]

Duke, UVA, Berkeley, Michigan, NU, and Cornell are all basically peers. There's wiggle room from year to year, and some selection bias reflected in the data, but they're peers. The airports literally don't matter.

Let's focus on how bad GULC is.

[cannibal ox]

Yeah guys, let's get back to how UT is t14 now. Right? ... Guys?

[Partner Track]

Does this mean UVA is now worth sticker?

[Jaqen]

Chicago left Columbia in the dust in the USNWR rankings and is at the top of the list for employment.

UT displaced the George-whatever Law CenTTTer in USNWR and Vandy's employment stats are probably better than Berzerkeley's.

This Southerner => Chicagoan => Texan is pleased.