Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[emu42]

As for working "a few years (or more)" in biglaw. Easier said than done. Most people who leave biglaw leave on their own accord within 3 to 5 years because they couldn't stand it. They are probably just as smart and hard working as you.

All I'm saying is that everyone is different. Some people need money more than others, and some people like money more than others. No one, I suggest, should go to law school just for the money.

I chose my law school based on its reputation, surrounding area, professors, and career prospects in every field, especially those outside of biglaw. Money was an issue too, but I was willing to turn down a substantial amount of scholarship in favor of enjoying my law school experience more and opening up more opportunities down the road. OP would call me stupid for doing this.

[MKC]

3.5k/month = 42k a year

minimum wage = ~16k/year

So, after taxes, 80k a year is roughly minimum wage while paying off sticker debt.

We aren't talking about getting rich here. We're talking about being poor for a decade even with a pretty good employment outcome. Debt is real.

[patogordo]

3.5k/month = 42k a year

minimum wage = ~16k/year

So, after taxes, 80k a year is roughly minimum wage while paying off sticker debt.

We aren't talking about getting rich here. We're talking about being poor for a decade even with a pretty good employment outcome. Debt is real.

but the dream of partnership will always be around the corner. sure, none of us will actually make it, but keeping the dream of success alive for 3-5 more years is definitely worth at least $300k.

[quijotesca1011]

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[quijotesca1011]

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[MKC]

I didn't read through 19 pages of this thread.

Maybe you should do that before commenting.

I did read through the whole thread (sadly), but I still agree with the basis of emu's comments. The equation changes significantly if money isn't your number one priority. If I weren't planning on law school, I'd be thinking about social work, work in a NGO, etc. (I remember looking at job ads offering as low as 30K in NYC out of undergrad). It's more about the field of work, but from previous professional experience I know that the legal aspects of the work are what most interest me.

i.e., when I personally consider the opportunity cost of something like law school, it's probably very different than other people (definitely different than most people on this thread). If money is your #1 priority, something like consulting or i-banking definitely seems to make a lot more sense than taking on law school at sticker. If it's not, the equation might be very different (I'm not saying sticker makes sense across the board, I'm just saying that if you are looking at this as a purely economic equation you aren't going to fully understand the reasons that some other people are making decisions).

LRAP/LIIP is by no means going to let you live large, but in a lot of cases it's probably going to put me in a slightly better position salary-wise than I would have been in a lot of the jobs I was looking out straight out of undergrad for my interests, and for an area of the work that interests me more.

Just keep in mind that counting on loan forgiveness in the form of PLSF or IBR is betting the farm that Congress won't change the rules on you in the next 10-20 years. They probably won't, but that's a hell of a gamble.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I really don't think that going into most public service jobs changes the equation at all. I didn't go to law school to make money (which is good, because I'm not making much - but it is more than I ever made in my previous career before law school); I went out of interest in the kind of work it provided. I wish I'd retaken to be able to avoid the stupid debt, and can't counsel 95% of people to take on the debt. (There are a few special snowflakes who really are special, but otherwise, no.)

[quijotesca1011]

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[emu42]

Also something to consider: Yale, and to a lesser extent Harvard, have very high yields. Almost everyone who gets into these places gets a full ride at a top 14 school, many even at Columbia/Chicago. And yet, the far majority of them choose Y/H. Some of the people have rich parents; some of these people are acting irrationally. But I think the main reason they make a different decision than you would is that they have different preferences than you do.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yes. When they are 0Ls, before they have incurred the debt, they have different preferences. Most/many of us did.

(Not that I went to H or Y, but hopefully you get what I mean.)

[bk1]

Also something to consider: Yale, and to a lesser extent Harvard, have very high yields. Almost everyone who gets into these places gets a full ride at a top 14 school, many even at Columbia/Chicago. And yet, the far majority of them choose Y/H. Some of the people have rich parents; some of these people are acting irrationally. But I think the main reason they make a different decision than you would is that they have different preferences than you do.

Lawyers, law students, and prospective law students tend to be prestige whores, and this is the explanation you go with?

[quijotesca1011]

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[emu42]

Also something to consider: Yale, and to a lesser extent Harvard, have very high yields. Almost everyone who gets into these places gets a full ride at a top 14 school, many even at Columbia/Chicago. And yet, the far majority of them choose Y/H. Some of the people have rich parents; some of these people are acting irrationally. But I think the main reason they make a different decision than you would is that they have different preferences than you do.

Lawyers, law students, and prospective law students tend to be prestige whores, and this is the explanation you go with?

What? If someone values prestige, that is a preference of his or hers. I'm not really explaining anything, but rather suggesting that there is an explanation. If part of that explanation is prestige, then...okay? Some people derive pleasure from going to a more prestigious school.

[emu42]

Yes. When they are 0Ls, before they have incurred the debt, they have different preferences. Most/many of us did.

(Not that I went to H or Y, but hopefully you get what I mean.)

I think most 0Ls who get into these schools are smart enough to do research and I know most of them read these forums. Many of them have already incurred debt for undergrad, and many of them have work experience.

[bk1]

What I think is interesting about this is then no middle-income/upper-middle income (in that gray area where you aren't getting grants but have to take out significant loans because, perhaps, your parents can't/have decided not to pay for grad school) should ever go to HYS, according to the general tenor of this thread (and really TLS in general).

Now, there are a number of people who are going to strike out at HYS and not have it be worth it. But is that percentage really so high as to council a whole swathe of people against that decision?

Because no one on this board could really know whether someone is a real 'special snowflake' (unless they lay their whole application out there), and certainly no one should be so fool hearty as to personally assume they are… But presuming such people do exist, if they follow this advice, they would potentially miss out (not saying there's a huge difference between HYS and the T-14, but for some high prestige jobs -- especially when we are talking PI -- there is).

Grants at HYS are capped at somewhere a bit above 1/2 tuition. People are still taking out a lot of money at these places even if they get a grant.

The whole point of this thread is that the gap between HYS and the rest of the T14 does not justify taking out significant additional debt. And while the PI argument may be reasonable for people that truly are dedicated to PI, the fact is that most people even at HYS do not go on to do PI work. Sure, there exist such special snowflakes, but they are just that, special snowflakes.

[quijotesca1011]

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[bk1]

What? If someone values prestige, that is a preference of his or hers. I'm not really explaining anything, but rather suggesting that there is an explanation. If part of that explanation is prestige, then...okay? Some people derive pleasure from going to a more prestigious school.

I actually conflated your two posts.

Part of the argument is that these people are making irrational choices (either overvaluing the added placement power of HYS or falsely believing they will end up in a significantly different place than if they went to a different school). But mainly most of these people have little to no conception of what paying back this kind of debt is really like (and thus are not able make a rational choice between HYS and other options). They may value prestige now when they don't have to actually feel its cost, but prestige doesn't fill your bank account. Human beings aren't always good with dealing with delayed gratification situations (HYS is immediate gratification whereas scholarships are delayed gratifications). And of course money is not everyone's number one priority, but it is at least a significant priority to many people.

[Cicero76]

Oh man. What was I thinking? If I had known that my English degree from BIG STATE U could have just parachuted me into I-Banking, I never would have gone to law school! I would have dropped out of the law school game as I lost the Ruby game and gone straight into $$$ at Finance or a Tech Startup.

I'll make sure I tell all my friends in college about these sweet jobs "any smart millennial" can get. The more you know. Thanks TLS!

[sublime]

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[MKC]

Oh man. What was I thinking? If I had known that my English degree from BIG STATE U could have just parachuted me into I-Banking, I never would have gone to law school! I would have dropped out of the law school game as I lost the Ruby game and gone straight into $$$ at Finance or a Tech Startup.

I'll make sure I tell all my friends in college about these sweet jobs "any smart millennial" can get. The more you know. Thanks TLS!

Based on the school you go to, I am 90% sure you had other options (not that you made the wrong choice though)

(Cicero's Report Card from first semester)
(Winning)

[bk1]

I would still like to know what percentage of graduating seniors/people who have been out and working in this economy 1-3 years (so it's a fair comparison) and went to HYS after taking out significant debt actually regret it. It just seems that we don't usually hear from them on these boards, we hear from people who tell us that those other people regret it.

I don't see why hearing the "I went to school X over scholarship at much lower ranked school Y" involving non-HYS schools isn't applicable to HYS. There exist similarly large employment gaps at other places in the rankings.

[Cicero76]

Oh man. What was I thinking? If I had known that my English degree from BIG STATE U could have just parachuted me into I-Banking, I never would have gone to law school! I would have dropped out of the law school game as I lost the Ruby game and gone straight into $$$ at Finance or a Tech Startup.

I'll make sure I tell all my friends in college about these sweet jobs "any smart millennial" can get. The more you know. Thanks TLS!

Based on the school you go to, I am 90% sure you had other options (not that you made the wrong choice though)

You would be shocked at the lack of career options for a state university kid with pretty good standardized test scores and very good teacher recommendations and a humanities degree. For some reason there's nowhere to put those on job applications.

Granted, I didn't look super hard. But it seemed like I'd be lucky to pull down 40k anywhere, and I didn't like the look of that at all. I especially didn't like what that seemed to look like 10-20 years out--corporate drone making 80k? Gross

[emu42]

What? If someone values prestige, that is a preference of his or hers. I'm not really explaining anything, but rather suggesting that there is an explanation. If part of that explanation is prestige, then...okay? Some people derive pleasure from going to a more prestigious school.

I actually conflated your two posts.

Part of the argument is that these people are making irrational choices (either overvaluing the added placement power of HYS or falsely believing they will end up in a significantly different place than if they went to a different school). But mainly most of these people have little to no conception of what paying back this kind of debt is really like (and thus are not able make a rational choice between HYS and other options). They may value prestige now when they don't have to actually feel its cost, but prestige doesn't fill your bank account. Human beings aren't always good with dealing with delayed gratification situations (HYS is immediate gratification whereas scholarships are delayed gratifications). And of course money is not everyone's number one priority, but it is at least a significant priority to many people.

Right, but I think people are generally well-informed. The "financing law school" discussion at Harvard's ASW was by far the most attended event. Also, the 'Harvard prestige' is immediate gratification, but something you can take advantage of for the rest of your life, too. I'm not a fan of these types of people for the record.

[Saddle Up]

Before deciding to pass up near sticker at a couple of elite schools one thing I did was check their school threads. Perhaps the winners are too discriminating to rave about their conquest because what I learned is that not everyone at these select schools are being wined and dined by BL. Worse yet there are 3Ls without offers. To me this is the worst case scenario, big debt, no offer and having to come up with the extra money for your own Barbri and bar fees.

When I checked LST I discovered that some schools prop up their employment success record by counting short term school jobs and PI. I might have been swayed if I saw that everyone paying +250K was popping Dom Perignon and snacking on Beluga Caviar. Perhaps a few years back this was the case but as often noted on this site, the new normal doesn’t particularly translate to a good normal.

[aboutmydaylight]

I would still like to know what percentage of graduating seniors/people who have been out and working in this economy 1-3 years (so it's a fair comparison) and went to HYS after taking out significant debt actually regret it. It just seems that we don't usually hear from them on these boards, we hear from people who tell us that those other people regret it.

I've never once seen anyone on this board say they regretted YS over lower T14 with discount. I don't read all the threads, and these are really small schools so its obviously not that meaningful in any way. I've seen maybe 2-3 anecdotes of people who took H at sticker and regret not taking CCNP with money.