Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[mickey_mouse]

Anyone do Emory yet? Let's see what that jump in the rankings was all about

Been checking, Emory not up yet.

[d cooper]

UVA is up: http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2013employment.pdf

50 + 12.91 = 62.91%

If anyone is curious: 95.6% FTLT employment. It's 79.7% if you subtract school-funded spots, which is in line with most of the lower T14.

[d cooper]

Anyone do Emory yet? Let's see what that jump in the rankings was all about

Been checking, Emory not up yet.

Also, the USNWR rankings were based on last year's data so class of 2013 is irrelevant.

[sasquatchsam]

While I think the fellowships at UVA might hide an unemployment issue...I am not sure if it would be an effective way for the school to boost their ranking considering they could have used the $2,000,000 this year on scholarships. Seems to me that offering another fifteen or so full tuition scholarships would boost your rankings more than the current model. Maybe I am wrong though.

[twenty]

With about 16% in funded spots.

[californiauser]

While I think the fellowships at UVA might hide an unemployment issue...I am not sure if it would be an effective way for the school to boost their ranking considering they could have used the $2,000,000 this year on scholarships. Seems to me that offering another fifteen or so full tuition scholarships would boost your rankings more than the current model. Maybe I am wrong though.

These school funded jobs account for about 17% of the class. I'm sure this would have more of an effect on rankings and prospective students' perspectives than a few extra scholarships

[WokeUpInACar]

The fuck, UT?

[UVAIce]

I think people miss out what these school-funded spots are about. I'm sure that the Dean is happy to keep our employment numbers up, but everyone that I know - and realistically I don't know everyone at UVA - that has done one of these fellowships opted into it rather than doing something else. Nice anecdote for you: I have a friend going to work for the DA of a rural county in the South (this is what they want to do) and they are banking on the fellowship program to give them at least a year of experience and a shot at a full-time gig with the county once they are done. This person did not do OGI (our OCI). I know a number of people who are really not all that hot on the idea of doing big law and want to do things like work on the Hill or some other non-profit in DC. Other folks just want a shot working in a legal aid office.

And how weird would it be that UVA's big law hiring numbers and federal clerkship hiring numbers (we also send a number of people into state supreme court slots) were the same as other peer schools but somehow there is a structural issue at the school that would make our unemployment numbers hover around 18% while everyone else is around 2% without the school-funded position. Come on now. And as someone stated earlier, these are not the BS school-funded jobs that other schools give out. It's a livable wage, especially when you consider the VLF plan will pay the loan costs for that year as well (or so I believe), and you're employed for a year. If this was just an attempt at a BS statistic game they would have saved themselves 2 months of paychecks.

Edit:

Thought I would throw in a link to the ATL article about this: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/in-defen ... graduates/

35/40 fellows were full-time employed at the end of the fellowship. And not all of these kids on these fellowships are bottom 1/4 of the class kids. I know a circuit court clerk who used this program to work for the non-profit he loved. And they also aren't non-law jobs. I just love how UVA gets flack for this program when there are other comparable T-14 schools that run the same kind of programs for the students interested in PI. Another side note, ALL law school foundation fellowships count as school funded positions. UVA has historically had a number of these that pay over $30K and some are rather prestigious.

[jk148706]

I'm a 0L so what do I know, but...

I don't get the flack Mich is taking here. Bc they don't hire 15 percent of the graduating class at minimum wage or 30k? I guess that's better than being unemployed but its not desirable.

Honestly, it seems to me that without those school funded jobs, uva isn't that far ahead of Michigan. Its not a huge drop off once u get to Michigan.

If school funded jobs are so great, then GW is doing awesome, no?

I am sincerely interested in this as it was my first thought when looking at the numbers.

[UVAIce]

Also, holy alt wars in here.

[BigZuck]

The fuck, UT?

Pretty sure we got the info at ASW last year. I think you and I both posted it at the same time? I'm guessing the info will be released Friday.

[04102014]

The fuck, UT?

Pretty sure we got the info at ASW last year. I think you and I both posted it at the same time? I'm guessing the info will be released Friday.

Sneak peak plz?

[lecsa]

.

[rad lulz]

UVA is up: http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2013employment.pdf

50 + 12.91 = 62.91%

If anyone is curious: 95.6% FTLT employment. It's 79.7% if you subtract school-funded spots, which is in line with most of the lower T14.

Subtract non bar passage require jobs

[californiauser]

I think people miss out what these school-funded spots are about. I'm sure that the Dean is happy to keep our employment numbers up, but everyone that I know - and realistically I don't know everyone at UVA - that has done one of these fellowships opted into it rather than doing something else. Nice anecdote for you: I have a friend going to work for the DA of a rural county in the South (this is what they want to do) and they are banking on the fellowship program to give them at least a year of experience and a shot at a full-time gig with the county once they are done. This person did not do OGI (our OCI). I know a number of people who are really not all that hot on the idea of doing big law and want to do things like work on the Hill or some other non-profit in DC. Other folks just want a shot working in a legal aid office.

And how weird would it be that UVA's big law hiring numbers and federal clerkship hiring numbers (we also send a number of people into state supreme court slots) were the same as other peer schools but somehow there is a structural issue at the school that would make our unemployment numbers hover around 18% while everyone else is around 2% without the school-funded position. Come on now. And as someone stated earlier, these are not the BS school-funded jobs that other schools give out. It's a livable wage, especially when you consider the VLF plan will pay the loan costs for that year as well (or so I believe), and you're employed for a year. If this was just an attempt at a BS statistic game they would have saved themselves 2 months of paychecks.

Edit:

Thought I would throw in a link to the ATL article about this: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/in-defen ... graduates/

35/40 fellows were full-time employed at the end of the fellowship. And not all of these kids on these fellowships are bottom 1/4 of the class kids. I know a circuit court clerk who used this program to work for the non-profit he loved. And they also aren't non-law jobs. I just love how UVA gets flack for this program when there are other comparable T-14 schools that run the same kind of programs for the students interested in PI. Another side note, ALL law school foundation fellowships count as school funded positions. UVA has historically had a number of these that pay over $30K and some are rather prestigious.

This is the equivalent of NYU and U Mich's students' anecdotes of, "Our grads are more PI focused, that's why our big law numbers are lower compared to our peers."

[swampman]

This is the equivalent of NYU and U Mich's students' anecdotes of, "Our grads are more PI focused, that's why our big law numbers are lower compared to our peers."

It shouldn't be used to justify lower Biglaw numbers. If you're choosing between Penn and UVA and only want NYC biglaw, Penn is probably a better choice. But if you're gunning for biglaw and are choosing between two schools with basically equal biglaw % you should pick the school that has school-funded positions as an insurance policy. If you are gunning for PI (some of us are, really) these fellowships are a major selling point.

As a result, if applicants are acting rationally, schools with these fellowships should actually have more students gunning for PI over time.

[Princetonlaw68]

I think people miss out what these school-funded spots are about. I'm sure that the Dean is happy to keep our employment numbers up, but everyone that I know - and realistically I don't know everyone at UVA - that has done one of these fellowships opted into it rather than doing something else. Nice anecdote for you: I have a friend going to work for the DA of a rural county in the South (this is what they want to do) and they are banking on the fellowship program to give them at least a year of experience and a shot at a full-time gig with the county once they are done. This person did not do OGI (our OCI). I know a number of people who are really not all that hot on the idea of doing big law and want to do things like work on the Hill or some other non-profit in DC. Other folks just want a shot working in a legal aid office.

And how weird would it be that UVA's big law hiring numbers and federal clerkship hiring numbers (we also send a number of people into state supreme court slots) were the same as other peer schools but somehow there is a structural issue at the school that would make our unemployment numbers hover around 18% while everyone else is around 2% without the school-funded position. Come on now. And as someone stated earlier, these are not the BS school-funded jobs that other schools give out. It's a livable wage, especially when you consider the VLF plan will pay the loan costs for that year as well (or so I believe), and you're employed for a year. If this was just an attempt at a BS statistic game they would have saved themselves 2 months of paychecks.

Edit:

Thought I would throw in a link to the ATL article about this: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/in-defen ... graduates/

35/40 fellows were full-time employed at the end of the fellowship. And not all of these kids on these fellowships are bottom 1/4 of the class kids. I know a circuit court clerk who used this program to work for the non-profit he loved. And they also aren't non-law jobs. I just love how UVA gets flack for this program when there are other comparable T-14 schools that run the same kind of programs for the students interested in PI. Another side note, ALL law school foundation fellowships count as school funded positions. UVA has historically had a number of these that pay over $30K and some are rather prestigious.

This is the equivalent of NYU and U Mich's students' anecdotes of, "Our grads are more PI focused, that's why our big law numbers are lower compared to our peers."

(Sorry for posting so many times in here, I will try not to anymore after this.)

It seems that most of you are bashing the whole idea that Mich's and NYu's big law numbers misrepresent the odds of landing big law from these schools because of the supposed PI focus. For all of you who think this PI-focused thing is crap as far as Mich and NYU are concerned, do you believe the same goes for GULC? Or do people who say this exact same thing for GULC actually have more of a case than NYU and Mich?

[lecsa]

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[Lord Randolph McDuff]

God this thread has turned into a shining example of why the world hates douchey law students.

But hey why does LST count school funded in the employment score? I get that school funded positions are a good thing, but including them as equals to normal paid jobs earned in a competive job market makes little sense to me... Does LST worry that changing their rubric might incentivize some schools to cut back on funding or duration for these programs?

[Dr.Zer0]

Berkeley employment #s?

[twenty]

But hey why does LST count school funded in the employment score? I get that school funded positions are a good thing, but including them as equals to normal paid jobs earned in a competive job market makes little sense to me... Does LST worry that changing their rubric might incentivize some schools to cut back on funding or duration for these programs?

I feel like LST does a pretty solid job explaining what percentage of the "little green number" is made up of school funded jobs.

School funded jobs are tricky. I'm inclined to say that a lot of schools will use them to boost their employment numbers, (i.e, GWU) but I think a reasonable case can be made for school funded positions being a valuable asset to a graduating PI-gunner student. Most PI hiring doesn't legitimately happen until anywhere from a year to three years after the student graduates, and being able to rely on a steady stream of income for at least the first year is pretty advantageous.

[JCougar]

School-funded jobs are not all bad, but neither are all business/government/PI. So if you're not including the latter, you shouldn't include the former.

I wish we had a breakdown of "Government" at least. It would be really helpful to sort out FedGov jobs from State and Local ones, and include at least FedGov in the "good jobs" score. That's not to say all state and local jobs are bad, but a certain percentage of them are.

[lecsa]

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[jbagelboy]

School-funded jobs are not all bad, but neither are all business/government/PI. So if you're not including the latter, you shouldn't include the former.

I wish we had a breakdown of "Government" at least. It would be really helpful to sort out FedGov jobs from State and Local ones, and include at least FedGov in the "good jobs" score. That's not to say all state and local jobs are bad, but a certain percentage of them are.

Fair point. Some of the top grads I know (order of the coif at T-14) went straight to the DOJ (no biglaw). And certain federal government jobs are what biglaw attorneys want and lateral to (DOJ, SEC). There's no good reason to do biglaw first if you can get one of these jobs straight out and you're interested in the subject material. They have great benefits, probably better QOL and much, much more substantive work.

Lol I know a 3L at a lower T14 graduating and going to continue unpaid FT at a DA's office (where they worked 2L), and that counts as Gov't.

[lecsa]

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