Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[KatyMarie]

I have a sneaking suspicion that many people pushing this line are seniors in college or maybe one year out. That's always a really uncertain, nervous period, and all you see is people taking less than ideal jobs/internships and not the things they do after. Though these kids are graduating into a much better economy than my friends and I did, so I'm not too too sympathetic.

Yeah, the economy pretty much owned our class. I was just talking with some friends about job hunting back in 2008 (when we were graduating from high school). It was a nightmare just trying to find some sh*tty job that I could work to cover some living expenses while I was in college (and I was lucky enough to have a full ride+stipend). It was even worse for the people not going to college and looking for full-time jobs/apprenticeships. Tons of people just wound up enlisting because what else were they supposed to do.

Taking out 300k to go to law school (or undergrad loans to go to college even), is probably not the answer to that uncertainty, but you've got to sympathize a little with people who are getting rejected from everywhere they apply for months on end and can't figure out what the hell they're going to do to support themselves in the meantime.

[cotiger]

I have a sneaking suspicion that many people pushing this line are seniors in college or maybe one year out. That's always a really uncertain, nervous period, and all you see is people taking less than ideal jobs/internships and not the things they do after. Though these kids are graduating into a much better economy than my friends and I did, so I'm not too too sympathetic.

Yeah, the economy pretty much owned our class. I was just talking with some friends about job hunting back in 2008 (when we were graduating from high school). It was a nightmare just trying to find some sh*tty job that I could work to cover some living expenses while I was in college (and I was lucky enough to have a full ride+stipend). It was even worse for the people not going to college and looking for full-time jobs/apprenticeships. Tons of people just wound up enlisting because what else were they supposed to do.

Taking out 300k to go to law school (or undergrad loans to go to college even), is probably not the answer to that uncertainty, but you've got to sympathize a little with people who are getting rejected from everywhere they apply for months on end and can't figure out what the hell they're going to do to support themselves in the meantime.

I have some sympathy for their nervousness. But no sympathy for the sky is falling and everyone is fucked bit. People graduating college in the ultimate shitstorm of 2009 and 2010 weathered it and shit ultimately worked out okay. People graduating in 2013 and 2014 can chill out a bit. Your first job out of college will most likely not be everything you hoped and dreamed. But that's why you don't stay at your first job.

[KatyMarie]

I have a sneaking suspicion that many people pushing this line are seniors in college or maybe one year out. That's always a really uncertain, nervous period, and all you see is people taking less than ideal jobs/internships and not the things they do after. Though these kids are graduating into a much better economy than my friends and I did, so I'm not too too sympathetic.

Yeah, the economy pretty much owned our class. I was just talking with some friends about job hunting back in 2008 (when we were graduating from high school). It was a nightmare just trying to find some sh*tty job that I could work to cover some living expenses while I was in college (and I was lucky enough to have a full ride+stipend). It was even worse for the people not going to college and looking for full-time jobs/apprenticeships. Tons of people just wound up enlisting because what else were they supposed to do.

Taking out 300k to go to law school (or undergrad loans to go to college even), is probably not the answer to that uncertainty, but you've got to sympathize a little with people who are getting rejected from everywhere they apply for months on end and can't figure out what the hell they're going to do to support themselves in the meantime.

I have some sympathy for their nervousness. But no sympathy for the sky is falling and everyone is fucked bit. People graduating college in the ultimate shitstorm of 2009 and 2010 weathered it and shit ultimately worked out okay. People graduating in 2013 and 2014 can chill out a bit. Your first job out of college will most likely not be everything you hoped and dreamed. But that's why you don't stay at your first job.

True. I don't have sympathy for people who refuse a job/won't apply to a job because they think it's beneath them. I applied to plenty of fast food gig/childcare gigs/server type jobs to keep afloat during and after I graduated college, and I took whatever I could get. Mopping a couple of floors isn't going to kill anyone lol.

Total unemployment on the other hand is scary as hell though. :/ No good way around that. Even if you're willing to take a crappy job, sometimes you can't get even that.

[TooOld4This]

I have a sneaking suspicion that many people pushing this line are seniors in college or maybe one year out. That's always a really uncertain, nervous period, and all you see is people taking less than ideal jobs/internships and not the things they do after. Though these kids are graduating into a much better economy than my friends and I did, so I'm not too too sympathetic.

Yeah, the economy pretty much owned our class. I was just talking with some friends about job hunting back in 2008 (when we were graduating from high school). It was a nightmare just trying to find some sh*tty job that I could work to cover some living expenses while I was in college (and I was lucky enough to have a full ride+stipend). It was even worse for the people not going to college and looking for full-time jobs/apprenticeships. Tons of people just wound up enlisting because what else were they supposed to do.

Taking out 300k to go to law school (or undergrad loans to go to college even), is probably not the answer to that uncertainty, but you've got to sympathize a little with people who are getting rejected from everywhere they apply for months on end and can't figure out what the hell they're going to do to support themselves in the meantime.

I have some sympathy for their nervousness. But no sympathy for the sky is falling and everyone is fucked bit. People graduating college in the ultimate shitstorm of 2009 and 2010 weathered it and shit ultimately worked out okay. People graduating in 2013 and 2014 can chill out a bit. Your first job out of college will most likely not be everything you hoped and dreamed. But that's why you don't stay at your first job.

True. I don't have sympathy for people who refuse a job/won't apply to a job because they think it's beneath them. I applied to plenty of fast food gig/childcare gigs/server type jobs to keep afloat during and after I graduated college, and I took whatever I could get. Mopping a couple of floors isn't going to kill anyone lol.

Total unemployment on the other hand is scary as hell though. :/ No good way around that. Even if you're willing to take a crappy job, sometimes you can't get even that.

What's scarier is unemployment with $300k in debt. Having nothing but knowing that things will turn the corner if you can just land the next opportunity (or the one after than) is a hell of a lot better than knowing even if you land a job your best outcome is being on the edge of catastrophe.

[KatyMarie]

Total unemployment on the other hand is scary as hell though. :/ No good way around that. Even if you're willing to take a crappy job, sometimes you can't get even that.

What's scarier is unemployment with $300k in debt. Having nothing but knowing that things will turn the corner if you can just land the next opportunity (or the one after than) is a hell of a lot better than knowing even if you land a job your best outcome is being on the edge of catastrophe.

Agreed. That's pretty much worse case scenario, period. I don't think taking out 300k in non-dischargeable debt is a real great idea for anyone (maybe unless you have a pretty comfy security net and it's truly the only way to get to that next step in your field, but idk about that even).

[eljefe1]

: ' (

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH2w6Oxx0kQ

It slippppps aaawayyy, and not another minute will your money buyyyyyyyeeEEEeeee.

[eljefe1]

But if you insist on paying sticker for some shit chance at biglaw...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X_2IdybTV0 and/or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GN2kpBoFs4

[A. Nony Mouse]

classic choices.

[rayiner]

I bet you can find posts from like 2 years ago where I was like:

Nah, it should be totes easy. I live on 30k a year in law school. That leaves 70k per year for loans. I can have this shit done in 3 years!

I just had a post about that that I deleted.

Both you ane Rayiner thought that paying back debt would be easy on biglaw salaries. I'm sure there are posts from both of you and others along those lines, that argued that repaying debt in a few years was doable.

0LS are lucky that you guys stayed around and are still posting.

And yet, I've actually seen Rayiner say that he would do it all over again.... Is that right, Rayiner?

It is helpful to hear the regrets. I think sticker is generally bad but I don't think we can make a blanket rule and say that anyone is any idiot for doing it.

DF and I were huge splitters. We didn't have scholarship options in the T14. So yeah, I'd do it again, but only because retaking and getting money wasn't an option. Most people aren't in our shoes.

[Pneumonia]

Sticker was significantly cheaper in the past, adjusted for inflation. Even if the "so you'd do it again therefore your point is invalid" argument held water (which it doesn't) it wouldn't work because it's not the same now.

[rayiner]

Sticker was significantly cheaper in the past, adjusted for inflation. Even if the "so you'd do it again therefore your point is invalid" argument held water (which it doesn't) it wouldn't work because it's not the same now.

Right. Sticker for me was $240k. That's $700/month less over 10 years.

[Grond]

Most people's lives are mediocre, at best, whether they went to law school or not.

hth

We're all fucked, and most of your living moments will be horrible. Act accordingly.

horrible is a little strong...I'd say most of your living moments being entirely forgettable is bad enough.
I think we're nearing the threshold, when the word mediocre and mediocrity gets thrown around enough, somebody (invariably a very mediocre person) will start quoting Atlas Shrugged, or at least do some heavy paraphrasing.

To be fair, some of the people in this thread seem to having difficulty with the whole non-contradiction thing.

[rayiner]

so, what exactly is it people are trying to get across here?
that there are jobs for people with non-STEM degrees out there, not all of us have to be lawyers, but some of us can if we want to, but make sure the price is right?

My takeaways would be this:

1) The job is harder than you think;
2) Paying off loans is harder than you think;
3) You have more alternatives thank you think;
4) Retake.

[patogordo]

going to law school lets you keep the dream alive for another few years, though

[emu42]

All I've learned from this thread is that I'm happy I'm not going to Northwestern, if people there are like this. There are things in the world other than money, and there are jobs other than biglaw. Just because YOU only care about these things doesn't mean others do.

You said law school is only worth it for the money. Well, then why the hell are you going to law school and not going straight into some finance field? There are some people who go to law school because they care about some cause, or because they like to teach and research, or because they (gasp!) like the material. Maybe you don't. But there are plenty who do. So please, STFU. You sound like you're butthurt you didn't get into Yale. Well, you'd be a fish out of water at Yale anyway, since (mostly) everyone there wants to clerk/go into academia.

If you're going to law school just for money, it is not worth it.

[thisiswater]

All I've learned from this thread is that I'm happy I'm not going to Northwestern, if people there are like this. There are things in the world other than money, and there are jobs other than biglaw. Just because YOU only care about these things doesn't mean others do.

You said law school is only worth it for the money. Well, then why the hell are you going to law school and not going straight into some finance field? There are some people who go to law school because they care about some cause, or because they like to teach and research, or because they (gasp!) like the material. Maybe you don't. But there are plenty who do. So please, STFU. You sound like you're butthurt you didn't get into Yale. Well, you'd be a fish out of water at Yale anyway, since (mostly) everyone there wants to clerk/go into academia.

If you're going to law school just for money, it is not worth it.

cool argument. definitely unique

[Pneumonia]

You have it backwards. The NU posters are mostly agreeing with you in that one of their main points is that law school sucks precisely because the debt leaves you with no other options but to care just about money.

[emu42]

You have it backwards. The NU posters are mostly agreeing with you in that one of their main points is that law school sucks precisely because the debt leaves you with no other options but to care just about money.

I didn't read through 19 pages of this thread, but that argument makes little sense. Yale, Harvard, etc. give you tons of options besides biglaw (i.e. caring just about the money) through LRAP etc.

OP also ignores jobs/opportunities outside of your first post-grad job. This adds to the fact that, in the long run, whatever your tuition is pales in comparison to your income over the course of your life.

[lecsa]

You have it backwards. The NU posters are mostly agreeing with you in that one of their main points is that law school sucks precisely because the debt leaves you with no other options but to care just about money.

I didn't read through 19 pages of this thread, but that argument makes little sense. Yale, Harvard, etc. give you tons of options besides biglaw (i.e. caring just about the money) through LRAP etc.

OP also ignores jobs/opportunities outside of your first post-grad job. This adds to the fact that, in the long run, whatever your tuition is pales in comparison to your income over the course of your life.

Outside of maybe Yale, lol at "LRAP"

You're still going to be broke and looking at your interest accruing each month.

Have you ever been in tons of debt? If not, then I wouldn't discount the psychological (and practical) impact having tons of debt does to you.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I didn't read through 19 pages of this thread.

Maybe you should do that before commenting.

[lecsa]

so, what exactly is it people are trying to get across here?
that there are jobs for people with non-STEM degrees out there, not all of us have to be lawyers, but some of us can if we want to, but make sure the price is right?

My takeaways would be this:

1) The job is harder than you think;
2) Paying off loans is harder than you think;
3) You have more alternatives thank you think;
4) Retake.

And more draining than you think. Law school was fun and very little work in comparison.

[emu42]

You have it backwards. The NU posters are mostly agreeing with you in that one of their main points is that law school sucks precisely because the debt leaves you with no other options but to care just about money.

I didn't read through 19 pages of this thread, but that argument makes little sense. Yale, Harvard, etc. give you tons of options besides biglaw (i.e. caring just about the money) through LRAP etc.

OP also ignores jobs/opportunities outside of your first post-grad job. This adds to the fact that, in the long run, whatever your tuition is pales in comparison to your income over the course of your life.

Outside of maybe Yale, lol at "LRAP"

You're still going to be broke and looking at your interest accruing each month.

Have you ever been in tons of debt? If not, then I wouldn't discount the psychological impact having tons of debt does to you.

Harvard's LRAP is very good too, and very flexible. Anyway, I never discounted working in biglaw for a few (or more) years for some money, but to suggest this is the only way makes no sense.

[emu42]

I didn't read through 19 pages of this thread.

Maybe you should do that before commenting.

Maybe, but if I'm responding to only the OP and not to anyone else, then it isn't necessary, so I won't.

[SemperLegal]

You have it backwards. The NU posters are mostly agreeing with you in that one of their main points is that law school sucks precisely because the debt leaves you with no other options but to care just about money.

I didn't read through 19 pages of this thread, but that argument makes little sense. Yale, Harvard, etc. give you tons of options besides biglaw (i.e. caring just about the money) through LRAP etc.

OP also ignores jobs/opportunities outside of your first post-grad job. This adds to the fact that, in the long run, whatever your tuition is pales in comparison to your income over the course of your life.

LRAP doesn't exist anymore. Now its just PSLF or IBR until the government gets tired of footing the bill for people who counted on a government bailout as a back up. For the few schools where there is some LRAP (YH) you still have to land qualifying employment which isn't as easy as you think.

Also, feel free to go either 10 or 25 years without being able to own a house, begin saving for retirement, or get a good line of credit in pursuit of a LIFETIME OF INCOME. However, this assumes that it does get better for an unemployed JD 10 years after graduation. In reality, if you don't start pretty soon after graduation, you are not very likely to ever break 50k in legal practice because its too late for Biglaw, companies don't want to train new lawyers (and those that do, want them before 10 years of bad habits), and BIGOV only hires recent graduates. Even SmallLaw and MIDLAW aren't likely to be very eager to hire you unless you've managed to assemble a book of business, because a younger lawyer costs less, hasn't had knowledge erosion from years of non-employment, and is easier to impress/intimidate.

[lecsa]

You have it backwards. The NU posters are mostly agreeing with you in that one of their main points is that law school sucks precisely because the debt leaves you with no other options but to care just about money.

I didn't read through 19 pages of this thread, but that argument makes little sense. Yale, Harvard, etc. give you tons of options besides biglaw (i.e. caring just about the money) through LRAP etc.

OP also ignores jobs/opportunities outside of your first post-grad job. This adds to the fact that, in the long run, whatever your tuition is pales in comparison to your income over the course of your life.

Outside of maybe Yale, lol at "LRAP"

You're still going to be broke and looking at your interest accruing each month.

Have you ever been in tons of debt? If not, then I wouldn't discount the psychological impact having tons of debt does to you.

Harvard's LRAP is very good too, and very flexible. Anyway, I never discounted working in biglaw for a few (or more) years for some money, but to suggest this is the only way makes no sense.

You have to love your job a whole lot to get paid little while still being in 300k debt. Depending on the org, your hours may not be great either. I know people working 10+ hour days in PI getting paid a fraction of what you do at a firm. Their work is more interesting, but it's also long hours.

Almost all my friends in PI had their parents pay for law school so they have no loans. If you're looking at PI, I strongly encourage you to take a full ride instead of relying on a program that may or may not exist for the duration of your loan repayment (just look at PSLF). A lot of them had to work for free for a year or more after graduation to land full time PI. If you have rich parents, you can do that. Otherwise it's going to be miserable.

As for working "a few years (or more)" in biglaw. Easier said than done. Most people who leave biglaw leave on their own accord within 3 to 5 years because they couldn't stand it. They are probably just as smart and hard working as you.