2014 Rankings Released Forum

[Dr. Dre]

the correct response is HYS > CCNP > VBC > DN > G.

[Aroldis105]

AFAIK, public interest jobs should not even enter into the equation when ranking non-HYS schools based on employment outcomes. This is because (1) outside of HYS, very few students from very few schools get prestigious/important PI/government jobs, (2) The number of students employed in PI is not broken down so that we can see the exact number of grads in prestigious worthwhile jobs. These numbers are diluted by grads going into far less desirable P.I. jobs such as working for the PD's office. Being a PD /=/ working for the DOJ.

Working at a local PD office isn't "important" or "worthwhile"? You clearly don't understand the point of Public Interest and sorry, but the way you phrased this is gag-inducingly douchey. Believe it or not, some people want their careers to be substatively satisfying, and don't care about whether dipshits like yourself think they're prestigious or "desirable."

+1

[Presidentjlh]

A better term than "prestigious" or "important" would probably have been "higher-paying".

[Renne Walker]

the correct response is HYS > CCNP > VBC > DN > G.

Forever more it shall be known as the T-13.

[Presidentjlh]

the correct response is HYS > CCNP > VBC > DN > G.

Forever more it shall be known as the T-13.

I for one look forward to when law school is so glutted it's just "T-10" so we can make Terminator jokes.

[EvilClinton]

^^ The pairing above is bullshit (only slightly less shitty arbitrary tiers than those usually purported on TLS).

Cornell significantly outperforms it's rank. Penn, Virgina and Berkeley are not equals. If you want to make these distinctions, the correct response is HYS > CCNP > VBC > DN > G.

People like to say how Northwestern outperforms it's rank, but this is in large part due to NU grads having significant meaningful work experience prior to law school (e.g. investment banking).

Again, I really don't care for these stupid tiers. Schools should be given a numerical rank based on employment outcomes (each school thus having it's own unique rank).

When comparing schools, people should use the ABA data. Add up the number of students working in 101+ firms, add in the federal clerkship numbers, divide by the total number of grads, and voila, there's your percentage to compare.

AFAIK, public interest jobs should not even enter into the equation when ranking non-HYS schools based on employment outcomes. This is because (1) outside of HYS, very few students from very few schools get prestigious/important PI/government jobs, (2) The number of students employed in PI is not broken down so that we can see the exact number of grads in prestigious worthwhile jobs. These numbers are diluted by grads going into far less desirable P.I. jobs such as working for the PD's office. Being a PD /=/ working for the DOJ.

Five year averages should always be chosen over data from only a single year.

This entire post is based on a lot of normative assumptions and miss information. There are very prestigious and sought after PD jobs. The PD office in DC has some very distinguished alumni including some in academia.

[Dr. Dre]

T13

[JamesDean1955]

Ok y'all, let me clarify because I realize that came off wrong. I should have used a term other than desirable. I simply meant that some PI jobs are much harder to come by than others. Didnt mean to attack public defender jobs - I myself am considering this path as I have had some previous law enforcement exposure. Maybe PD jobs wasnt a good example - I realize in some places these jobs are of course very hard to get.

[Dr. Dre]

the correct response is HYS > CCNP > VBC > DN > G.

Forever more it shall be known as the T-13.

I for one look forward to when law school is so glutted it's just "T-10" so we can make Terminator jokes.

[somewhatwayward]

AFAIK, public interest jobs should not even enter into the equation when ranking non-HYS schools based on employment outcomes. This is because (1) outside of HYS, very few students from very few schools get prestigious/important PI/government jobs, (2) The number of students employed in PI is not broken down so that we can see the exact number of grads in prestigious worthwhile jobs. These numbers are diluted by grads going into far less desirable P.I. jobs such as working for the PD's office. Being a PD /=/ working for the DOJ.

Working at a local PD office isn't "important" or "worthwhile"? You clearly don't understand the point of Public Interest and sorry, but the way you phrased this is gag-inducingly douchey. Believe it or not, some people want their careers to be substatively satisfying, and don't care about whether dipshits like yourself think they're prestigious or "desirable."

+1

+1,000,000....your tiny pink 0L elitism is showing

But anywayz a major thing you forgot is that the vast majority of those "undesirable" PI jobs are eligible for PSLF so those people's debts are forgiven after 10 years in public service with no tax on the forgiveness, which I think should count as a good outomce. Sure, there is the risk that people won't be able to stay in PI for ten years, but there's probably an even higher risk that people can't stay in big law long enough to pay their debt down, and they count as a good outcome.

[Void]

Ok y'all, let me clarify because I realize that came off wrong. I should have used a term other than desirable. I simply meant that some PI jobs are much harder to come by than others. Didnt mean to attack public defender jobs - I myself am considering this path as I have had some previous law enforcement exposure. Maybe PD jobs wasnt a good example - I realize in some places these jobs are of course very hard to get.

You're still not getting it re: public defenders. In the 1970s or 80s these might have been back-up jobs for TTT grads who didn't make the OCI cut. But nowadays I think it's safe to say that ALL PD jobs are very hard to get. There are thousands of smart, capable, top-of-their-class people who enrolled in law school specifically to work as PDs. The office I work in wouldn't think twice about turning down a T-14 top 10% grad who is clearly applying as a backup- they'd rather take their pick from the giant pool of actually qualified and dedicated applicants. While I am focusing on PD here because of personal experience, I know the same is true of prosecutors, AGs, and other formerly "backup" positions.

So when you suggest that employment stats shouldn't include these sorts of jobs, you're just incorrect. Plenty of people want them and compete for them ferociously.

[JamesDean1955]

Ok y'all, let me clarify because I realize that came off wrong. I should have used a term other than desirable. I simply meant that some PI jobs are much harder to come by than others. Didnt mean to attack public defender jobs - I myself am considering this path as I have had some previous law enforcement exposure. Maybe PD jobs wasnt a good example - I realize in some places these jobs are of course very hard to get.

You're still not getting it re: public defenders. In the 1970s or 80s these might have been back-up jobs for TTT grads who didn't make the OCI cut. But nowadays I think it's safe to say that ALL PD jobs are very hard to get. There are thousands of smart, capable, top-of-their-class people who enrolled in law school specifically to work as PDs. The office I work in wouldn't think twice about turning down a T-14 top 10% grad who is clearly applying as a backup- they'd rather take their pick from the giant pool of actually qualified and dedicated applicants. While I am focusing on PD here because of personal experience, I know the same is true of prosecutors, AGs, and other formerly "backup" positions.

So when you suggest that employment stats shouldn't include these sorts of jobs, you're just incorrect. Plenty of people want them and compete for them ferociously.

Point taken, i concur.

[Aroldis105]

AFAIK, public interest jobs should not even enter into the equation when ranking non-HYS schools based on employment outcomes. This is because (1) outside of HYS, very few students from very few schools get prestigious/important PI/government jobs, (2) The number of students employed in PI is not broken down so that we can see the exact number of grads in prestigious worthwhile jobs. These numbers are diluted by grads going into far less desirable P.I. jobs such as working for the PD's office. Being a PD /=/ working for the DOJ.

Working at a local PD office isn't "important" or "worthwhile"? You clearly don't understand the point of Public Interest and sorry, but the way you phrased this is gag-inducingly douchey. Believe it or not, some people want their careers to be substatively satisfying, and don't care about whether dipshits like yourself think they're prestigious or "desirable."

+1

+1,000,000....your tiny pink 0L elitism is showing

But anywayz a major thing you forgot is that the vast majority of those "undesirable" PI jobs are eligible for PSLF so those people's debts are forgiven after 10 years in public service with no tax on the forgiveness, which I think should count as a good outomce. Sure, there is the risk that people won't be able to stay in PI for ten years, but there's probably an even higher risk that people can't stay in big law long enough to pay their debt down, and they count as a good outcome.

Considering the state of our federal budget, and the penchant for one of our major parties to cut public interest spending, if one where to graduate in the next couple years while the PSLF were still in effect and it was repealed or scaled back following their acceptance of the terms, would that person still be entitled to the same 10 year debt deal?

[thelawyler]

Considering the state of our federal budget, and the penchant for one of our major parties to cut public interest spending, if one where to graduate in the next couple years while the PSLF were still in effect and it was repealed or scaled back following their acceptance of the terms, would that person still be entitled to the same 10 year debt deal?

I'm fairly certain that 10 year deal is built into your MPN so yes, contractually you will be entitled to it, and any changes they make will be going forward and not retroactive. Anybody who knows for sure feel free to correct me.

[Tiago Splitter]

Ok y'all, let me clarify because I realize that came off wrong. I should have used a term other than desirable. I simply meant that some PI jobs are much harder to come by than others. Didnt mean to attack public defender jobs - I myself am considering this path as I have had some previous law enforcement exposure. Maybe PD jobs wasnt a good example - I realize in some places these jobs are of course very hard to get.

You're still not getting it re: public defenders. In the 1970s or 80s these might have been back-up jobs for TTT grads who didn't make the OCI cut. But nowadays I think it's safe to say that ALL PD jobs are very hard to get. There are thousands of smart, capable, top-of-their-class people who enrolled in law school specifically to work as PDs. The office I work in wouldn't think twice about turning down a T-14 top 10% grad who is clearly applying as a backup- they'd rather take their pick from the giant pool of actually qualified and dedicated applicants. While I am focusing on PD here because of personal experience, I know the same is true of prosecutors, AGs, and other formerly "backup" positions.

So when you suggest that employment stats shouldn't include these sorts of jobs, you're just incorrect. Plenty of people want them and compete for them ferociously.

Ok. Let's count those jobs. Go ahead and show me where public defender positions are broken out within the employment data and we'll include them with firms of 100+ and Federal Clerkships in the list of desirable outcomes.

[Void]

Ok. Let's count those jobs. Go ahead and show me where public defender positions are broken out within the employment data and we'll include them with firms of 100+ and Federal Clerkships in the list of desirable outcomes.

I have no idea what this means

[Tiago Splitter]

Ok. Let's count those jobs. Go ahead and show me where public defender positions are broken out within the employment data and we'll include them with firms of 100+ and Federal Clerkships in the list of desirable outcomes.

I have no idea what this means

JamesDean's original point seemed to be that he isn't going to include any PI positions among his desirable outcomes at least in part because we don't know which PI jobs are hard to get and which ones are fallbacks. Even with the improved data of recent years we still have no idea which PI jobs are worth counting. So the conservative thing for a 0L to do is count none of them.

[mb9113]

Considering the state of our federal budget, and the penchant for one of our major parties to cut public interest spending, if one where to graduate in the next couple years while the PSLF were still in effect and it was repealed or scaled back following their acceptance of the terms, would that person still be entitled to the same 10 year debt deal?

I'm fairly certain that 10 year deal is built into your MPN so yes, contractually you will be entitled to it, and any changes they make will be going forward and not retroactive. Anybody who knows for sure feel free to correct me.

I think you're right. I can't remember where I read it, but Tamanaha had to take back his claim that loan forgiveness could be gutted by deficit reduction. Because it is in the MPN.

However, don't underestimate the ability for the gov to screw you over. I worked my ass off through high school to get a state scholarship that would pay for 75% of my tuition. I earned it, applied, and was approved. Then two weeks before I started my freshman year, the state legislature cut it.

Those of us who earned it got it back by whipping up the media and embarrassing the legislators, but still.

[Void]

Ok. Let's count those jobs. Go ahead and show me where public defender positions are broken out within the employment data and we'll include them with firms of 100+ and Federal Clerkships in the list of desirable outcomes.

I have no idea what this means

JamesDean's original point seemed to be that he isn't going to include any PI positions among his desirable outcomes at least in part because we don't know which PI jobs are hard to get and which ones are fallbacks. Even with the improved data of recent years we still have no idea which PI jobs are worth counting. So the conservative thing for a 0L to do is count none of them.

Ok. And what kinds of PI jobs aren't "worth counting?"

[Tiago Splitter]

Ok. Let's count those jobs. Go ahead and show me where public defender positions are broken out within the employment data and we'll include them with firms of 100+ and Federal Clerkships in the list of desirable outcomes.

I have no idea what this means

JamesDean's original point seemed to be that he isn't going to include any PI positions among his desirable outcomes at least in part because we don't know which PI jobs are hard to get and which ones are fallbacks. Even with the improved data of recent years we still have no idea which PI jobs are worth counting. So the conservative thing for a 0L to do is count none of them.

Ok. And what kinds of PI jobs aren't "worth counting?"

We don't know what kinds of PI jobs people get. We just know the number of PI jobs each school produces every year, but there isn't a further breakdown. Look at the ABA data for your school and tell me how many people got PD jobs vs. any other kind of PI job.

[JamesDean1955]

^^ Tiago is absolutely right about the main point I was trying to convey with my post. I should have used better language so that I didn't sound like a douchebag elitist, yes, but I was trying to emphasize that because we don't know the composition of PI jobs that grads are landing, the most conservative and appropriate ranking methodology should focus on biglaw + Federal clerkship numbers. The PD example is outdated, obviously, as these jobs are not easy to get ITE, and haven't been for some time.

I think we can all agree that if a graduate is able to secure a position at any hard to attain PI job (whether that's 100% of all PI jobs, or 90%, etc.), said graduate would have been able to attain biglaw and/or an AIII clerkship. The problem is, what are these public interest positions reported to the ABA comprised of? Exactly how many are difficult enough to attain that they should be added to biglaw and Federal clerkship numbers to rank schools based on employment ability?

[Rahviveh]

What would be an example of a shit PI job? Other than school funded jobs that lead to nowhere

[rad lulz]

I think we can all agree that if a graduate is able to secure a position at any hard to attain PI job (whether that's 100% of all PI jobs, or 90%, etc.), said graduate would have been able to attain biglaw and/or an AIII clerkship.

Nope

Big firms look at two things primarily - grades/ties

Public interest orgs may care about grades to some degree, but depending on who is doing the hiring, commitment and experience may be more valuable as well as network to even get you the interview

Goddamn 0Ls

[Void]

I think we can all agree that if a graduate is able to secure a position at any hard to attain PI job (whether that's 100% of all PI jobs, or 90%, etc.), said graduate would have been able to attain biglaw and/or an AIII clerkship.

What the hell are you talking about? In what universe can you assume that someone who is able to secure one position is therefore able to secure another? Are you a 0L or something? Are you guys seriously thinking that employment prsopects is a numbers game like LS admissions? I think I'm done trying to make any sense of this drivel.

[rad lulz]

I think we can all agree that if a graduate is able to secure a position at any hard to attain PI job (whether that's 100% of all PI jobs, or 90%, etc.), said graduate would have been able to attain biglaw and/or an AIII clerkship.

What the hell are you talking about? In what universe can you assume that someone who is able to secure one position is therefore able to secure another? Are you a 0L or something? Are you guys seriously thinking that employment prsopects is a numbers game like LS admissions? I think I'm done trying to make any sense of this drivel.

Listening to 0Ls talking about how to get legal jobs with other 0Ls is frighteningly idiotic