Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[neprep]

The reduction in expected earnings in all those fields due to the probability of failure is equal to, or less than, the same probability of striking out in OCI. However, the lack of over-specialization and crippling debt load makes the costs of failure less.

You're still assuming that everyone going to law school and assuming the risk of striking out at OCI is qualified for the careers you listed.

We don't need to assume everyone could get into these other fields, just that a significant quantity could if they set their mind to it.

Yes, but the time to "set their mind to it" passed 4 years ago, when they started undergrad.

Not necessarily. At least for PE or IB, you could could probably get away with merely having your shit together around the beginning of your junior year. (Assuming you go to a target and aren't insufferable during interviews.)

Unfortunately when you're at that stage of deciding sticker-or-not, it's a bit late in the day to break into anything like that. But the point being made while offering those alternatives wasn't that they were viable for people making that decision, but rather that they do exist and claiming that life is a binary system of either law school or sub-50K is false. Although Muskies backpeddled on that point by going from sub-50 to "50 maybe 75 maybe 100 lol."

[eljefe1]

The reduction in expected earnings in all those fields due to the probability of failure is equal to, or less than, the same probability of striking out in OCI. However, the lack of over-specialization and crippling debt load makes the costs of failure less.

You're still assuming that everyone going to law school and assuming the risk of striking out at OCI is qualified for the careers you listed.

Everyone is qualified, or can become qualified for much less than 6 figures, for at least one of a long list of jobs that provides a mid-5 figure pay.

Also, if you graduate with a degree in Poli Sci, and you can't self-study your way into a insurance, Realtor, or programming certification you can either go back and get an additional major, or get a certification or associates degree in a more lucrative field for way time and money than a JD. This is even more easy with the proliferation of MOOCs.

employers lend little credence to online certification.

[cotiger]

For those of you who think sticker is obviously a good deal, at what price would you change your mind? If sticker were 350k, would you still do it? 400k? 500k?

[Hipster but Athletic]

For those of you who think sticker is obviously a good deal, at what price would you change your mind? If sticker were 350k, would you still do it? 400k? 500k?

Get your sophistry out of here

[eljefe1]

Not necessarily. At least for PE or IB, you could could probably get away with merely having your shit together around the beginning of your junior year. (Assuming you go to a target and aren't insufferable during interviews.)

Unfortunately when you're at that stage of deciding sticker-or-not, it's a bit late in the day to break into anything like that. But the point being made while offering those alternatives wasn't that they were viable for people making that decision, but rather that they do exist and claiming that life is a binary system of either law school or sub-50K is false. Although Muskies backpeddled on that point by going from sub-50 to "50 maybe 75 maybe 100 lol."

agreed. well, a little. You're still assuming people are at the target school, or that they'll even get their shit together.

anyway... ppl just like to argue on the internet (including me, sometimes, lolz) . Everyone's situation is different, and everyone in any given said situation needs to account for the risks they're willing to take.

[eljefe1]

now im going to drink some beer and scoop some bishes. peace, yall.

[EquallyWrong]

For those of you who think sticker is obviously a good deal, at what price would you change your mind? If sticker were 350k, would you still do it? 400k? 500k?

Not to say I think sticker is "obviously a good deal," but anything that totally breaks any 10 year (non-PAYE) repayment plan is a big barrier. Do not want to go past a tenner, which is ugly enough.

[muskies970]

No. You said it was law school or sub-50k for life. Being a paralegal was an example of not going to law school, yet not making sub-50k for life. You're the one coming up with new arguments about making more money and being easier and whatever.

Or one can settle for ~50-75k salary (who knows maybe it'll go up closer to 100k eventually)
with no risk involved.

Pretty sure this is what I said asshole, which was right on.

ETA: I thought mods were supposed to be able to read coherently?

Actually i think the initial reaction happened to you saying

2. It's still possible to live on a biglaw salary and pay off sticker debt in a reasonable time period, and then have an above average salary the rest of your career. Is it risky? Yes of course. But your other option is to settle for a sub 50k salary for the rest of your career. Unfortunately with the economyt we have there has to be some risk taking if you want to rise above average. It's shitty that everyone can't be well off and that along the way a lot will fall off, but I don't see what better option(s) exist?

I apologize, I honestly forgot I said the sub 50k line and have no idea why I did, maybe I was going for hyperbolic effect at the time. The 50-75k number is more in line with what I believe. Sorry Nony.

[cotiger]

For those of you who think sticker is obviously a good deal, at what price would you change your mind? If sticker were 350k, would you still do it? 400k? 500k?

Get your sophistry out of here

Care to explain?

There are people justifying sticker on purely economic grounds. I'm curious to see what they think the degree is worth to them.

[muskies970]

Muskie, it's strange to me that you answered DF's statement that the only good part of biglaw is the money by saying that if you're just in it for the money, you're being stupid, yet your sole goal in this search for legit careers is maximizing income while minimizing risk.

Let me clarify this for you since I think you are misinterpreting me.

I said that the only good part about being a lawyer isn't necessarily the money for some people. Such as those interested in doing public interest or other meaningful work, who may not mind making less than 50 or 60k because no matter what their profession is that is what their salary would be.

My next point was that, even if you're just in it for the money, biglaw provides a way, albeit a difficult one in the short term, to pay off the debt and still end up in the upper echelon of American society. Somewhat risky, and very difficult, but I don't see that as being different than any other career field.

If someone is content with a median income their entire lives and don't want the risk, then yes that is one option. But sticker debt at a T14 is not in all situations for all people stupid.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I apologize, I honestly forgot I said the sub 50k line and have no idea why I did, maybe I was going for hyperbolic effect at the time. The 50-75k number is more in line with what I believe. Sorry Nony.

No problem, sorry to get snarky back.

[muskies970]

For those of you who think sticker is obviously a good deal, at what price would you change your mind? If sticker were 350k, would you still do it? 400k? 500k?

Get your sophistry out of here

Care to explain?

There are people justifying sticker on purely economic grounds. I'm curious to see what they think the degree is worth to them.

I think if you are public interest minded and going to use loan forgiveness, then the number being 300k+ does not matter (except to taxpayers/ law schools who have to pay the bill).

I agree with all of you that law school is too expensive, if sticker reached 350k-400k with 160k starting salary as is, I would say it's a bad option for anyone justifying it on economic grounds, only because in the short term you would be at that point unable to pay it off. So yes in the current state of affairs we are right at the point where it can turn between a good and bad decision, but I think it still is doable and not objectively unreasonable.

[star fox]

This board gets so irritating shitty when the topic of UG education or the possibility of other things to do in life besides being a lawyer comes up.

I know other options exist, I just don't think they require substantially less work or are substantially less risky

Oh. Well if you're just looking for the most risk-less way to make a large amount of money, idk.. Not something I've ever really thought about explicitly.

Trust fund.

[Pneumonia]

I'm an 0L with a stupid degree from a not-fancy college and, in my experience and the experience of most of the people I know, this is just not true. There is still plenty of options without law school. (And yes, before you ask, I make significantly more than 50k a year and work somewhere between 45 and 50 hours a week)

Such as...

Finance. Investment banking. Consulting. Accounting. Tech start up.

lol'd so hard at this. cannot finish thread. still lol'ing. cannot wait to come back tomorrrow and lol some more. I mean this really stopped me dead in my tracks. Is this intended ironically?

[Pneumonia]

For stable career prospects with lots of room to grow to 100k and beyond, How about:
Strategy consulting
Economics consulting
Investment banking
Risk management and analytics
IT consulting
UX designer
Mobile developer
Software developer
Corporate finance
Portfolio management
Product design
Product management
Financial adviser
Insurance sales
Brokerage sales
Venture capital
Private equity
Hedge fund

This represents maybe 30% of available career paths for smart, ambitious people. If the best you can imagine for a college grad is 300k debt and a 3 year opportunity cost for a good shot at a 4 year stint in big law you must have no imagination whatsoever.

are you serious? I agree with you 100% but mentioning these kind of jobs as alternatives for 0L's who have a major in mass com from directional state U is counterproductive.

[Hipster but Athletic]

Anyone ever consider playing professional basketball in Europe?

[muskies970]

Just want to throw this out here because I'm curious about perspectives.

If ~50% of T14 grads land in biglaw. and ~15 percent of associates become partner
And partners make anywhere from 500,000-2million or more

Then even disregarding self selection of those who don't want to go into biglaw or become partner, one who enters into a T14 has a 5-10% chance of becoming in the top 1% of American society/ a millionaire.

To me born into a middle class family, those odds are amazing. Are there other fields where that is better? Is there something wrong with my reasoning?

[cotiger]

Anyone ever consider playing professional basketball in Europe?

A friend of mine did that. Also played for the Washington Generals.

[cotiger]

This board gets so irritating shitty when the topic of UG education or the possibility of other things to do in life besides being a lawyer comes up.

I know other options exist, I just don't think they require substantially less work or are substantially less risky

Oh. Well if you're just looking for the most risk-less way to make a large amount of money, idk.. Not something I've ever really thought about explicitly.

Trust fund.

Heh. I wish. In that case I wouldn't have to choose Northwestern or UChi over Harvard and Stanford.

[didntgo89072014]

For stable career prospects with lots of room to grow to 100k and beyond, How about:
Strategy consulting
Economics consulting
Investment banking
Risk management and analytics
IT consulting
UX designer
Mobile developer
Software developer
Corporate finance
Portfolio management
Product design
Product management
Financial adviser
Insurance sales
Brokerage sales
Venture capital
Private equity
Hedge fund

This represents maybe 30% of available career paths for smart, ambitious people. If the best you can imagine for a college grad is 300k debt and a 3 year opportunity cost for a good shot at a 4 year stint in big law you must have no imagination whatsoever.

are you serious? I agree with you 100% but mentioning these kind of jobs as alternatives for 0L's who have a major in mass com from directional state U is counterproductive.

Did you read my story?

And anyone is welcome to give up before they try. No skin off my back.

[Pneumonia]

Did you read my story?

And anyone is welcome to give up before they try. No skin off my back.

You are right that there are lots of really good and readily available jobs that people can get senior year or advance into. A lot of the jobs you listed don't fall into that category though.

[neprep]

For stable career prospects with lots of room to grow to 100k and beyond, How about:
Strategy consulting
Economics consulting
Investment banking
Risk management and analytics
IT consulting
UX designer
Mobile developer
Software developer
Corporate finance
Portfolio management
Product design
Product management
Financial adviser
Insurance sales
Brokerage sales
Venture capital
Private equity
Hedge fund

This represents maybe 30% of available career paths for smart, ambitious people. If the best you can imagine for a college grad is 300k debt and a 3 year opportunity cost for a good shot at a 4 year stint in big law you must have no imagination whatsoever.

are you serious? I agree with you 100% but mentioning these kind of jobs as alternatives for 0L's who have a major in mass com from directional state U is counterproductive.

Did you read my story?

And anyone is welcome to give up before they try. No skin off my back.

Well good for you for defying the odds but telling someone who does indeed have a "major in mass com from directional state U" that she can become an IB analyst or a trader at a hedge fund is about as useful as telling an actor in NYC that he may get his own show on HBO. Yeah it's possible, and I'm sure someone could tell you his or her story of that happening, but it's not a viable alternative as Pneumonia pointed out.

eta: also like Pneumonia, I too am focussing on the bolded

[star fox]

For stable career prospects with lots of room to grow to 100k and beyond, How about:
Strategy consulting
Economics consulting
Investment banking
Risk management and analytics
IT consulting
UX designer
Mobile developer
Software developer
Corporate finance
Portfolio management
Product design
Product management
Financial adviser
Insurance sales
Brokerage sales
Venture capital
Private equity
Hedge fund

This represents maybe 30% of available career paths for smart, ambitious people. If the best you can imagine for a college grad is 300k debt and a 3 year opportunity cost for a good shot at a 4 year stint in big law you must have no imagination whatsoever.

are you serious? I agree with you 100% but mentioning these kind of jobs as alternatives for 0L's who have a major in mass com from directional state U is counterproductive.

Did you read my story?

And anyone is welcome to give up before they try. No skin off my back.

Sounds like you're a special snowflake.

It's pretty clear most people have no idea what the job market is like for people with no experience and a shitty college degree.

A few anecdotes doesn't change that. Some people get lucky.

I agree that the vast vast majority of people should just accept toiling away at mediocrity in random jobs that don't lead anywhere and top out at ~60K (which is hardly a super awesome salary.. maybe coming out of school but not longterm) as opposed to taking on a ton of debt and wasting three years to do the same thing. But let's call it like it is.

[muskies970]

I agree that the vast vast majority of people should just accept toiling away at mediocrity in random jobs that don't lead anywhere and top out at ~60K (which is hardly a super awesome salary.. maybe coming out of school but not longterm) as opposed to taking on a ton of debt and wasting three years to do the same thing. But let's call it like it is.

180.

[didntgo89072014]

For stable career prospects with lots of room to grow to 100k and beyond, How about:
Strategy consulting
Economics consulting
Investment banking
Risk management and analytics
IT consulting
UX designer
Mobile developer
Software developer
Corporate finance
Portfolio management
Product design
Product management
Financial adviser
Insurance sales
Brokerage sales
Venture capital
Private equity
Hedge fund

This represents maybe 30% of available career paths for smart, ambitious people. If the best you can imagine for a college grad is 300k debt and a 3 year opportunity cost for a good shot at a 4 year stint in big law you must have no imagination whatsoever.

are you serious? I agree with you 100% but mentioning these kind of jobs as alternatives for 0L's who have a major in mass com from directional state U is counterproductive.

Did you read my story?

And anyone is welcome to give up before they try. No skin off my back.

Sounds like you're a special snowflake.

It's pretty clear most people have no idea what the job market is like for people with no experience and a shitty college degree.

A few anecdotes doesn't change that. Some people get lucky.

I agree that the vast vast majority of people should just accept toiling away at mediocrity in random jobs that don't lead anywhere and top out at ~60K (which is hardly a super awesome salary.. maybe coming out of school but not longterm) as opposed to taking on a ton of debt and wasting three years to do the same thing. But let's call it like it is.

I don't think ANYONE should "toil away at mediocrity", why would I ever say that. More people succeeding expands the pie, I am all about meeting successful people, understanding how they got where they are, and paying it forward to kids trying to navigate the world. If everyone in my network was extremely successful I would be ecstatic, in part because that would mean I was succeeding with them too.

Life isn't "law school or bullshit"...it's just not, at all. I have gotten lucky but I have many friends who have done well too. Besides the careers I listed there's higher ed administration, healthcare, nursing, research, think tank shit, government agencies...the list goes on and on. And none of this requires more than a bachelor's degree, and many of them don't REALLY care what your degree is in.