2014 Rankings Released Forum

[eph]

Would not be surprised if Penn replaces NYU at 6. For undergrad Penn is 8 NYU 32. Wharton is 3 Stern 11. Not a direct comparision but really...

[danquayle]

congrats to Michigan for once again convincing ancient law partners and judges who remember when you were a good school to prop you up for another year based on "reputation."

What else matters, wiseowl? Schools like Bama and IU get ripped all time for "buying" statistically strong class numbers, while at the same time people rip reputation as fleeting. It's really got to either way: 1) either schools truly do have inherent intangible methods for providing superior education and job connections as represented by "reputation" or 2) schools are only the sum of the students they attract. It can be both, but if that's the case you can't attack either for strength in those areas.

[04102014]

The anti-Michigan bullshit is ridiculous. Seriously.

[JamesDean1955]

The anti-Michigan bullshit is ridiculous. Seriously.

How is it bullshit? Michigan is clearly /=/ UVA and especially /=/ UPenn. I really don't see how people use a particular set of statistics (mainly LST) to support their contentions about how bad the fucking economy is (moaning and groaning), and yet looking at the same set of statistics, contend that "MVP"!!! and that Michigan, Virginia and UPenn are peers. Penn is obviously a league ahead of both M and V.

[Dr. Dre]

berkeley is ranked too high; it should be #14

[Antrim]

The anti-Michigan bullshit is ridiculous. Seriously.

How is it bullshit? Michigan is clearly /=/ UVA and especially /=/ UPenn. I really don't see how people use a particular set of statistics (mainly LST) to support their contentions about how bad the fucking economy is (moaning and groaning), and yet looking at the same set of statistics, contend that "MVP"!!! and that Michigan, Virginia and UPenn are peers. Penn is obviously a league ahead of both M and V.

How we see people like you:

--ImageRemoved--

[04102014]

The anti-Michigan bullshit is ridiculous. Seriously.

How is it bullshit? Michigan is clearly /=/ UVA and especially /=/ UPenn. I really don't see how people use a particular set of statistics (mainly LST) to moan and groan about how bad the fucking economy is, and yet looking at the same set of statistics, claim "MVP"!!! and that Michigan, Virginia and UPenn are peers. Penn is obviously a league ahead of both M and V.

I agree with the sentiment about Penn, but the notion that Michigan is not equal to UVA is a joke. Take away UVA's absurd school-funded rate and they are like 1-2% points apart. Considering the other negatives about UVA (their pre-select OCI system, their splitter-inflated medians, etc), I would take Michigan over UVA every time.

[wiseowl]

congrats to Michigan for once again convincing ancient law partners and judges who remember when you were a good school to prop you up for another year based on "reputation."

What else matters, wiseowl? Schools like Bama and IU get ripped all time for "buying" statistically strong class numbers, while at the same time people rip reputation as fleeting. It's really got to either way: 1) either schools truly do have inherent intangible methods for providing superior education and job connections as represented by "reputation" or 2) schools are only the sum of the students they attract. It can be both, but if that's the case you can't attack either for strength in those areas.

I'm going to go with, oh, I don't know, job placement. Michigan's job placement has cratered. This isn't a one year anomaly either.

31% and 38% NLJ placement ain't a top ten school. Sorry.

40% of USNWR remains old people filling in bubbles saying "oh I've heard of them, they're great!" Michigan does really well at that. Not so well at...other stuff.

[Dr. Dre]

Penn is obviously a league ahead of both M and V.

I agree with this

Penn> Mich>UVA>Berkeley

[Aroldis105]

Question.
Wouldn't it be beneficial if your school dropped in the rankings, especially if you're in the 20-40 range or 60 to 80? Think about it. People who are slaves to the rankings choose to go to "better schools", probably in different markets. Meanwhile, the school's actual reputation among hirers remains the same. As a result, you still have the same prospects upon graduation but are competing against a class that should be slightly less competitive. It may be or 15-20 kids who make the move, but there's a big difference between top 15% at a school and top 10%. Of course, all of this is assuming that the rankings don't matter

[Dr. Dre]

nothing matters outside the T14. everyone is regional or TTT

[JamesDean1955]

Penn is obviously a league ahead of both M and V.

I agree with this

Penn> Mich>UVA>Berkeley Penn >>>> UVA ~ Berkeley > Michigan

FTFY.

Seriously though, V, M, B are essentially peers w/r/t employment data, with Michigan being slightly worse in terms of employment outcomes. Penn fares significantly better than all three.

Disclaimer, Penn students on TLS would tell you the MVP thing is true. I, for one, when staring down the barrel of a fuckload of debt, am going to follow the employment data, scholarships being equal/close to equal.

[PRgradBYU]

I, for one, when staring down the barrel of a fuckload of debt, am going to follow the employment data, scholarships being equal/close to equal.

Frankly, I don't understand why everyone doesn't think as logically as you.

[04102014]

It's funny to me how the attitude on TLS shifts every few years. I've (sadly) been on here since 2009 when I first began thinking about law school, and, up until about two years ago, people used to HATE Penn. Back then, anytime the MVP conversation came up, it was all about how Penn sucked and should be ranked way lower and was only ranked so high because it was an Ivy and blah blah. Now everyone blows their wad anytime Penn is mentioned.

I doubt the bandwagon Michigan hate will last more than another year or two.

[Tiago Splitter]

It's funny to me how the attitude on TLS shifts every few years. I've (sadly) been on here since 2009 when I first began thinking about law school, and, up until about two years ago, people used to HATE Penn. Back then, anytime the MVP conversation came up, it was all about how Penn sucked and should be ranked way lower and was only ranked so high because it was an Ivy and blah blah. Now everyone blows their wad anytime Penn is mentioned.

I doubt the bandwagon Michigan hate will last more than another year or two.

If this is true, it means that TLS used to care very little about employment data, since Penn has consistently outperformed M and V in large firm placement since at least 2005. If you think that caring about employment data is just cyclical then you could be right about the future. Something tells me that won't be happening.

[rebexness]

I wonder if this means there are major changes between 10-14?

[20141023]

.

[04102014]

It's funny to me how the attitude on TLS shifts every few years. I've (sadly) been on here since 2009 when I first began thinking about law school, and, up until about two years ago, people used to HATE Penn. Back then, anytime the MVP conversation came up, it was all about how Penn sucked and should be ranked way lower and was only ranked so high because it was an Ivy and blah blah. Now everyone blows their wad anytime Penn is mentioned.

I doubt the bandwagon Michigan hate will last more than another year or two.

If this is true, it means that TLS used to care very little about employment data, since Penn has consistently outperformed M and V in large firm placement since at least 2005. If you think that caring about employment data is just cyclical then you could be right about the future. Something tells me that won't be happening.

I think there is more emphasis in general now on biglaw employment data (understandably so), whereas pre-crash and immediately post-crash TLSers still cared more about other, non-quantitative factors. It makes sense that as potential students become more aware of the risks they will place more emphasis on biglaw employment, but I don't think a school should be completely dismissed because they refuse to hire 20% of their graduates in order to inflate their numbers, particularly when the school's appeal has historically rested on factors other than biglaw employment.

My main issue with the Michigan bashing is that UVA doesn't get the same treatment, presumable because people see 94.7% employment and don't delve any further into how they get that number. Penn is in a nice spot between CCN and MV, but the notion that V > M is utterly nonsensical.

[Wakelaw15]

I wonder what will happen with WFU. It' hard to know without employment #s, but I know we held our medians and LSAT.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I wonder what will happen with WFU. It' hard to know without employment #s, but I know we held our medians and LSAT.

You have the employment numbers. The rankings use numbers that trail a year behind. WFU will be ranked based in the already released 2011 numbers.

Also lots of schools "held" their medians, FWIW

[MrHairyLegs]

The anti-Michigan bullshit is ridiculous. Seriously.

How is it bullshit? Michigan is clearly /=/ UVA and especially /=/ UPenn. I really don't see how people use a particular set of statistics (mainly LST) to moan and groan about how bad the fucking economy is, and yet looking at the same set of statistics, claim "MVP"!!! and that Michigan, Virginia and UPenn are peers. Penn is obviously a league ahead of both M and V.

I agree with the sentiment about Penn, but the notion that Michigan is not equal to UVA is a joke. Take away UVA's absurd school-funded rate and they are like 1-2% points apart. Considering the other negatives about UVA (their pre-select OCI system, their splitter-inflated medians, etc), I would take Michigan over UVA every time.

Willing to guess that your opinions on this matter might be different had UVA given you a nod. Not hatin, just sayin

[Crowing]

It's funny to me how the attitude on TLS shifts every few years. I've (sadly) been on here since 2009 when I first began thinking about law school, and, up until about two years ago, people used to HATE Penn. Back then, anytime the MVP conversation came up, it was all about how Penn sucked and should be ranked way lower and was only ranked so high because it was an Ivy and blah blah. Now everyone blows their wad anytime Penn is mentioned.

I doubt the bandwagon Michigan hate will last more than another year or two.

If this is true, it means that TLS used to care very little about employment data, since Penn has consistently outperformed M and V in large firm placement since at least 2005. If you think that caring about employment data is just cyclical then you could be right about the future. Something tells me that won't be happening.

I think there is more emphasis in general now on biglaw employment data (understandably so), whereas pre-crash and immediately post-crash TLSers still cared more about other, non-quantitative factors. It makes sense that as potential students become more aware of the risks they will place more emphasis on biglaw employment, but I don't think a school should be completely dismissed because they refuse to hire 20% of their graduates in order to inflate their numbers, particularly when the school's appeal has historically rested on factors other than biglaw employment.

My main issue with the Michigan bashing is that UVA doesn't get the same treatment, presumable because people see 94.7% employment and don't delve any further into how they get that number. Penn is in a nice spot between CCN and MV, but the notion that V > M is utterly nonsensical.

I think most of the hate directed toward Mich isn't because of their overall employment score but because of their shitty biglaw placement the past two years.

[gnuwheels]

It's funny to me how the attitude on TLS shifts every few years. I've (sadly) been on here since 2009 when I first began thinking about law school, and, up until about two years ago, people used to HATE Penn. Back then, anytime the MVP conversation came up, it was all about how Penn sucked and should be ranked way lower and was only ranked so high because it was an Ivy and blah blah. Now everyone blows their wad anytime Penn is mentioned.

I doubt the bandwagon Michigan hate will last more than another year or two.

If this is true, it means that TLS used to care very little about employment data, since Penn has consistently outperformed M and V in large firm placement since at least 2005. If you think that caring about employment data is just cyclical then you could be right about the future. Something tells me that won't be happening.

I think there is more emphasis in general now on biglaw employment data (understandably so), whereas pre-crash and immediately post-crash TLSers still cared more about other, non-quantitative factors. It makes sense that as potential students become more aware of the risks they will place more emphasis on biglaw employment, but I don't think a school should be completely dismissed because they refuse to hire 20% of their graduates in order to inflate their numbers, particularly when the school's appeal has historically rested on factors other than biglaw employment.

My main issue with the Michigan bashing is that UVA doesn't get the same treatment, presumable because people see 94.7% employment and don't delve any further into how they get that number. Penn is in a nice spot between CCN and MV, but the notion that V > M is utterly nonsensical.

I think most of the hate directed toward Mich isn't because of their overall employment score but because of their shitty biglaw placement the past two years.

Some things on campus don't look that great either. Like the fact that they can't even find a donor who wants to put their name on the brand new academic building they started like 4 years ago? I know its superficial but its gotta be kind of embarrassing to the administration, and perhaps somewhat telling about big donors' opinions about Michigan

[isuperserial]

Some things on campus don't look that great either. Like the fact that they can't even find a donor who wants to put their name on the brand new academic building they started like 4 years ago? I know its superficial but its gotta be kind of embarrassing to the administration, and perhaps somewhat telling about big donors' opinions about Michigan

I may be incorrect, but I believe that the new buildings were started due to a massive multi-million dollar gift. Ah, yes. Quick research found me this article: http://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/ne ... e2009.aspx

I don't think a 10 million dollar donation is insignificant.

http://www.law.umich.edu/alumniandfrien ... Gifts.aspx

To say donors are no longer interested in the school seems to be pretty meritless. I may be wrong.

[gnuwheels]

Some things on campus don't look that great either. Like the fact that they can't even find a donor who wants to put their name on the brand new academic building they started like 4 years ago? I know its superficial but its gotta be kind of embarrassing to the administration, and perhaps somewhat telling about big donors' opinions about Michigan

I may be incorrect, but I believe that the new buildings were started due to a massive multi-million dollar gift. Ah, yes. Quick research found me this article: http://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/ne ... e2009.aspx

I don't think a 10 million dollar donation is insignificant.

http://www.law.umich.edu/alumniandfrien ... Gifts.aspx

To say donors are no longer interested in the school seems to be pretty meritless. I may be wrong.

Sure, my final point might be a little excessive. But they still have been unsuccessful in finding a donor who wants to put their name on the building. Maybe it says nothing about the extent to which donors are interested in Michigan...but its certainly strange.