Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[SemperLegal]

For stable career prospects with lots of room to grow to 100k and beyond, How about:
Strategy consulting
Economics consulting
Investment banking
Risk management and analytics
IT consulting
UX designer
Mobile developer
Software developer
Corporate finance
Portfolio management
Product design
Product management
Financial adviser
Insurance sales
Brokerage sales
Venture capital
Private equity
Hedge fund

This represents maybe 30% of available career paths for smart, ambitious people. If the best you can imagine for a college grad is 300k debt and a 3 year opportunity cost for a good shot at a 4 year stint in big law you must have no imagination whatsoever.

But again in any of those jobs, just like in biglaw, if you want to be successful you'll have to be working 70+ hours a week easy...

All except a few of the high fianance ones have a MUCH higher quality of life and a lot less hours. Even insurance sales and financial advising are pretty easy jobs. Mostly you sit with average joes and explain average problems with them and take a consulting fee. The rest of the jobs are pretty run of the mill.

[Dafaq]

[I assume you had to incur tuition debt (of some kind) to be a paralegal. Basically how long in school and how much? During my SA time I always wanted to ask but never did.

I had to have a college degree but my company didn't need a paralegal certification. My college was paid for with a combo of parents and scholarships. I had basically no legal experience (some receptionist work during college) and I got the job through a staffing firm.

Do you work with other paralegals or directly for a partner or solo firm? Last question, ever think about becoming a lawyer? With your background all you would likely need is a JD so you could return to the firm as an attorney.

[jbagelboy]

Holy fucking hell

[muskies970]

No one is saying that being a paralegal is the same as going to biglaw. Stop moving the fucking goalposts.

you're right, they're arguing it's better...

No. You said it was law school or sub-50k for life. Being a paralegal was an example of not going to law school, yet not making sub-50k for life. You're the one coming up with new arguments about making more money and being easier and whatever.

Or one can settle for ~50-75k salary (who knows maybe it'll go up closer to 100k eventually)
with no risk involved.

Pretty sure this is what I said asshole, which was right on.

ETA: I thought mods were supposed to be able to read coherently?

[eljefe1]

For stable career prospects with lots of room to grow to 100k and beyond, How about:
Strategy consulting
Economics consulting
Investment banking
Risk management and analytics
IT consulting
UX designer
Mobile developer
Software developer
Corporate finance
Portfolio management
Product design
Product management
Financial adviser
Insurance sales
Brokerage sales
Venture capital
Private equity
Hedge fund

This represents maybe 30% of available career paths for smart, ambitious people. If the best you can imagine for a college grad is 300k debt and a 3 year opportunity cost for a good shot at a 4 year stint in big law you must have no imagination whatsoever.

lmao.. Do you think getting any of those jobs is as simple as graduating from college and applying to a few open positions? All of the careers listed above require prospective college students to think ahead and plan an education that provides proper experiential and academic coursework. This is especially true for all things tech and finance related.

[muskies970]

For stable career prospects with lots of room to grow to 100k and beyond, How about:
Strategy consulting
Economics consulting
Investment banking
Risk management and analytics
IT consulting
UX designer
Mobile developer
Software developer
Corporate finance
Portfolio management
Product design
Product management
Financial adviser
Insurance sales
Brokerage sales
Venture capital
Private equity
Hedge fund

This represents maybe 30% of available career paths for smart, ambitious people. If the best you can imagine for a college grad is 300k debt and a 3 year opportunity cost for a good shot at a 4 year stint in big law you must have no imagination whatsoever.

lmao.. Do you think getting any of those jobs is as simple as graduating from college and applying to a few open positions? All of the careers listed above require prospective college students to think ahead and plan an education that provides proper experiential and academic coursework. This is especially true for all things tech and finance related.

thank you for making this point so I didn't have to. I see too much of the "grass is greener" fallacy on TLS

[EquallyWrong]

so, what exactly is it people are trying to get across here?
that there are jobs for people with non-STEM degrees out there, not all of us have to be lawyers, but some of us can if we want to, but make sure the price is right?

[sublime]

..

[eljefe1]

but you're forgetting about the employment prospects and job security of law professors and administrative staff. Once you factor that term into the equation, it's clear that everyone should go to law school, without regard to the cost.

[EquallyWrong]

so, what exactly is it people are trying to get across here?
that there are jobs for people with non-STEM degrees out there, not all of us have to be lawyers, but some of us can if we want to, but make sure the price is right?

Yea, that about sums it up, with minor disagreement about what the right price is.

so the psychotic breakdowns have all just been window dressing?

[cotiger]

Muskie, it's strange to me that you answered DF's statement that the only good part of biglaw is the money by saying that if you're just in it for the money, you're being stupid, yet your sole goal in this search for legit careers is maximizing income while minimizing risk.

Also, if you look like two pages back, you definitely were talking about being stuck in sub-50k land for life.

You move the goalposts a lot, and there's no need to lash out at Nony bc she pointed it out.

[SemperLegal]

For stable career prospects with lots of room to grow to 100k and beyond, How about:
Strategy consulting
Economics consulting
Investment banking
Risk management and analytics
IT consulting
UX designer
Mobile developer
Software developer
Corporate finance
Portfolio management
Product design
Product management
Financial adviser
Insurance sales
Brokerage sales
Venture capital
Private equity
Hedge fund

This represents maybe 30% of available career paths for smart, ambitious people. If the best you can imagine for a college grad is 300k debt and a 3 year opportunity cost for a good shot at a 4 year stint in big law you must have no imagination whatsoever.

lmao.. Do you think getting any of those jobs is as simple as graduating from college and applying to a few open positions? All of the careers listed above require prospective college students to think ahead and plan an education that provides proper experiential and academic coursework. This is especially true for all things tech and finance related.

thank you for making this point so I didn't have to. I see too much of the "grass is greener" fallacy on TLS

The reduction in expected earnings in all those fields due to the probability of failure is equal to, or less than, the same probability of striking out in OCI. However, the lack of over-specialization and crippling debt load makes the costs of failure less.

[thisiswater]

No one is saying that being a paralegal is the same as going to biglaw. Stop moving the fucking goalposts.

you're right, they're arguing it's better...

No. You said it was law school or sub-50k for life. Being a paralegal was an example of not going to law school, yet not making sub-50k for life. You're the one coming up with new arguments about making more money and being easier and whatever.

Or one can settle for ~50-75k salary (who knows maybe it'll go up closer to 100k eventually)
with no risk involved.

Pretty sure this is what I said asshole, which was right on.

ETA: I thought mods were supposed to be able to read coherently?

Actually i think the initial reaction happened to you saying

2. It's still possible to live on a biglaw salary and pay off sticker debt in a reasonable time period, and then have an above average salary the rest of your career. Is it risky? Yes of course. But your other option is to settle for a sub 50k salary for the rest of your career. Unfortunately with the economyt we have there has to be some risk taking if you want to rise above average. It's shitty that everyone can't be well off and that along the way a lot will fall off, but I don't see what better option(s) exist?

[SemperLegal]

Or one can settle for ~50-75k salary (who knows maybe it'll go up closer to 100k eventually)
with no risk involved.

Pretty sure this is what I said asshole, which was right on.

ETA: I thought mods were supposed to be able to read coherently?

Except its really 103k for 3-5 years versus $52k a year with more job stability and a continually upward salary and an effective $154k head start due to opportunity costs.

Biglaw = 160k ($125k after taxes)
Average student payments per year are $22,318.56 (with no deduction due to phaseout)
Net value per year $103k

Even worse
Average salary while in law school=$0
Value of three years of $60k a year after taxes net for present value= $154,000

So to compare:

W/law school= 50% chance of $103k a year for 3-5 years and then a likely downward bump to high five figures
w/o law school= $52k a year, with gradual raises over a life time and a NPV head start of $154k

[sublime]

..

[A. Nony Mouse]

No one is saying that being a paralegal is the same as going to biglaw. Stop moving the fucking goalposts.

you're right, they're arguing it's better...

No. You said it was law school or sub-50k for life. Being a paralegal was an example of not going to law school, yet not making sub-50k for life. You're the one coming up with new arguments about making more money and being easier and whatever.

Or one can settle for ~50-75k salary (who knows maybe it'll go up closer to 100k eventually)
with no risk involved.

Pretty sure this is what I said asshole, which was right on.

ETA: I thought mods were supposed to be able to read coherently?

Only when people post coherently.

[didntgo89072014]

For stable career prospects with lots of room to grow to 100k and beyond, How about:
Strategy consulting
Economics consulting
Investment banking
Risk management and analytics
IT consulting
UX designer
Mobile developer
Software developer
Corporate finance
Portfolio management
Product design
Product management
Financial adviser
Insurance sales
Brokerage sales
Venture capital
Private equity
Hedge fund

This represents maybe 30% of available career paths for smart, ambitious people. If the best you can imagine for a college grad is 300k debt and a 3 year opportunity cost for a good shot at a 4 year stint in big law you must have no imagination whatsoever.

But again in any of those jobs, just like in biglaw, if you want to be successful you'll have to be working 70+ hours a week easy...

You talk a lot for clearly not knowing shit about shit. I work 50 hrs per week in one of the above and make just over 100k.

ETA: I interned at my firm by finding a listing on my colleges' career site and then pursuing aggressively. Did well in the internship and they hired me. I was a straight liberal arts major (english).

[KatyMarie]

Holy fucking hell

I don't know what happened. No one will calm down.

[eljefe1]

The reduction in expected earnings in all those fields due to the probability of failure is equal to, or less than, the same probability of striking out in OCI. However, the lack of over-specialization and crippling debt load makes the costs of failure less.

You're still assuming that everyone going to law school and assuming the risk of striking out at OCI is qualified for the careers you listed.

[cotiger]

so, what exactly is it people are trying to get across here?
that there are jobs for people with non-STEM degrees out there, not all of us have to be lawyers, but some of us can if we want to, but make sure the price is right?

Yea, that about sums it up, with minor disagreement about what the right price is.

One side is saying that you're fucked in low salary land for life unless you take out 300k in loans for law school, which will lead to the good life.

The other side is saying that there are plenty of options out there, you can eventually make decent money, and it's a bad idea to go 300k in debt for a degree in a field with tough employment prospects where many people end up hating the job.

Those summaries may be a bit biased, but you get the gist.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Holy fucking hell

I don't know what happened. No one will calm down.

It's "someone is wrong in the internet!" syndrome. (Clearly I'm having a flare up of this myself.)

[UVAIce]

The reduction in expected earnings in all those fields due to the probability of failure is equal to, or less than, the same probability of striking out in OCI. However, the lack of over-specialization and crippling debt load makes the costs of failure less.

You're still assuming that everyone going to law school and assuming the risk of striking out at OCI is qualified for the careers you listed.

We don't need to assume everyone could get into these other fields, just that a significant quantity could if they set their mind to it.

[eljefe1]

The reduction in expected earnings in all those fields due to the probability of failure is equal to, or less than, the same probability of striking out in OCI. However, the lack of over-specialization and crippling debt load makes the costs of failure less.

You're still assuming that everyone going to law school and assuming the risk of striking out at OCI is qualified for the careers you listed.

We don't need to assume everyone could get into these other fields, just that a significant quantity could if they set their mind to it.

Yes, but the time to "set their mind to it" passed 4 years ago, when they started undergrad.

[SemperLegal]

The reduction in expected earnings in all those fields due to the probability of failure is equal to, or less than, the same probability of striking out in OCI. However, the lack of over-specialization and crippling debt load makes the costs of failure less.

You're still assuming that everyone going to law school and assuming the risk of striking out at OCI is qualified for the careers you listed.

Everyone is qualified, or can become qualified for much less than 6 figures, for at least one of a long list of jobs that provides a mid-5 figure pay.

Also, if you graduate with a degree in Poli Sci, and you can't self-study your way into a insurance, Realtor, or programming certification you can either go back and get an additional major, or get a certification or associates degree in a more lucrative field for way time and money than a JD. This is even more easy with the proliferation of MOOCs.

[didntgo89072014]

The reduction in expected earnings in all those fields due to the probability of failure is equal to, or less than, the same probability of striking out in OCI. However, the lack of over-specialization and crippling debt load makes the costs of failure less.

You're still assuming that everyone going to law school and assuming the risk of striking out at OCI is qualified for the careers you listed.

We don't need to assume everyone could get into these other fields, just that a significant quantity could if they set their mind to it.

Yes, but the time to "set their mind to it" passed 4 years ago, when they started undergrad.

Totally untrue...I had no idea that my entire field existed until senior year of college. And like I said, I was an English major (~3.6 GPA, nothing incredible). I am very lucky to have my job but I also worked very hard for it.

You are rationalizing why you can't get a good job without going to law school. If you believe you can't do well without law school, then you won't. If you believe you can, start working on an alternate career path. Spoiler: Everyone can.

I think the best decision of my life was to not go to law school.