Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge Forum

[sparty99]

Why can't you go part time and cash flow this? $175,000 for a tier 4?! Oh, no!

Why? He can just work part-time at Kirkland and Ellis and "create" himself a job. Sounds like a good idea to me!

No, that would most likely be unpaid. But he can get a full-time, staff position at Kirkland and Ellis. Although any position with the firm will most likely be long hours, which will make this impossible. But if I were him that's what I'd be exploring immediately. I would apply to 9 to 5 legal secretary positions so he can get his foot in the door.

[romothesavior]

Great posts wholigan... nice to see somebody who has thought this through and really gets it.

And homestyle, I'd be surprised if more than a fraction of the class at JMLS was going to get paid work either summer, let alone a job that pays $10,000 for the summer. Almost nobody gets paid their 1L summer (even at T14 schools) and even at your average Tier 1 school, a paid 2L gig is far from a guarantee.

[romothesavior]

No, that would most likely be unpaid. But he can get a full-time, staff position at Kirkland and Ellis. Although any position with the firm will most likely be long hours, which will make this impossible. But if I were him that's what I'd be exploring immediately. I would apply to 9 to 5 legal secretary positions so he can get his foot in the door.

Wow, I did some research and you're actually right. I found this application for an unpaid fall semester internship on Skadden Arps' website.

Great way to get your foot in the door!

[Stanford4Me]

Just a quick clarification - don't NALP guidelines prohibit unpaid interns at firms? or ABA? I can't remember . . .

Edit: http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... oners_say/

[romothesavior]

Just a quick clarification - don't NALP guidelines prohibit unpaid interns at firms?

No dude, here's another one I just found for Sidley Austin.

But yes, I'm almost positive you're right.

[Stanford4Me]

Just a quick clarification - don't NALP guidelines prohibit unpaid interns at firms?

No dude, here's another one I just found for Sidley Austin.

But yes, I'm almost positive you're right.

I worked here the summer before 1L. Definitely convinced it will get me a job.

[reddituser]

Looking at ~175k at John Marshall. With my scholarship and hopefully my family will match, i'll have that number down to 125. Scared out of my mind, but excited to continue my edumacation.

125k in debt for a 4th tier school in one of the most oversaturated markets in the country? Sounds like a great plan.

Thanks! I'm looking forward to it.

Yes I'm aware TLS is full of downers. I met a 3L today who already has a $76k job lined up. Sounds fine to me.

Okay... I do not know anything about JMLS except what has been said on this site, so I am not going to make any characterizations about your school. However, have you thought these numbers through at all? Let's say things work out peachy, and you take out $125k in loans, and get a $76k job at graduation. (Which both seem like reaches at this point, especially that job, since it is based on anecdotal evidence from one person.)

Your $125k in loans have ballooned to ~143.5k at graduation. (1% orig. fees on the Staffords, 4% on the grad plus, 6.8% interest accruing on the unsubsidized staffords while you're being edumacated, $7.9% on the grad plus.) Put that on a 10 year payment plan, and you're at $1695/month paying back your loans. Can you afford that on your $76k job? How about if you're slightly less lucky and earn $65k? What about $45k?

Yeah I can afford a job that crappy. My fiancee works in student housing and we get free apartments. My loan amount will be smaller if she can find a job in Chicago obviously, but it is unknown today whether or not she'll get one for next year. If she did, then we're talking ~80-90k. 1695 is 20k a year, certainly manageable with a $45k job with no rent, little food cost (I get a meal plan wherever we live). I also have no undergraduate debt and some cash in the bank.
It's worth it to me...many people on this site think school should be free or very cheap, and I get that, I'm just not one of those people

[reddituser]

Okay... I do not know anything about JMLS except what has been said on this site, so I am not going to make any characterizations about your school. However, have you thought these numbers through at all? Let's say things work out peachy, and you take out $125k in loans, and get a $76k job at graduation. (Which both seem like reaches at this point, especially that job, since it is based on anecdotal evidence from one person.)

Your $125k in loans have ballooned to ~143.5k at graduation. (1% orig. fees on the Staffords, 4% on the grad plus, 6.8% interest accruing on the unsubsidized staffords while you're being edumacated, $7.9% on the grad plus.) Put that on a 10 year payment plan, and you're at $1695/month paying back your loans. Can you afford that on your $76k job? How about if you're slightly less lucky and earn $65k? What about $45k?

Good questions, but you should give him credit for summer work and knock the total down to 135k @ graduation.

Ed: Also, making 75k/year would give one reason to elect a longer pay off period, b/c you're not phased out of claiming the tax deduction on the interest. So, assuming he has 135k deb @ graduation and chooses a 20 year repayment plan, his monthly payment is ~$1031

I guess… being how he has gone ahead and assumed the best for everything, wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t factor in tuition increases. That should about cancel out any summer pay. So, let’s assume he is on the 20 year plan. $76k/year is about $4750/month in take home pay. Take off his loans, and he’s down to $3700/month. I guess he could scrape by in Chicago on that salary. How much does an apt cost in Chicago? Does he plan to have a family or do anything else expensive during the 20 years he will be paying off his loans? If so, hopefully he won’t want to have said family with a SO he meets at JMLS who took the 6 figure plunge with him.

See my previous post...my rent is paid for for the next ~10 years. We get free food, parking, usually a 2-3 bedroom furnished, utilities, and tuition if I want another degree no matter where we go. It's a pretty good deal and if it weren't for her I would be very wary of this decision

[romothesavior]

Yeah I can afford a job that crappy. My fiancee works in student housing and we get free apartments. My loan amount will be smaller if she can find a job in Chicago obviously, but it is unknown today whether or not she'll get one for next year. If she did, then we're talking ~80-90k. 1695 is 20k a year, certainly manageable with a $45k job with no rent, little food cost (I get a meal plan wherever we live). I also have no undergraduate debt and some cash in the bank.
It's worth it to me...many people on this site think school should be free or very cheap, and I get that, I'm just not one of those people

Did you read the article/comments I posted? I wish words could describe just how stupid going to JMLS is (let alone going into 6-figures of debt for it). But even if I had the words, it sounds like your mind is made up already and you are stubborn to boot. Good luck, and pray to whatever your deity of choice is that you don't wind up like the majority of your peers/alumni.

[Perch]

Just a quick clarification - don't NALP guidelines prohibit unpaid interns at firms?

No dude, here's another one I just found for Sidley Austin.

But yes, I'm almost positive you're right.

I worked here the summer before 1L. Definitely convinced it will get me a job.

this is the single greatest thing anyone has ever posted on TLS. honestly.

[reddituser]

Yeah I can afford a job that crappy. My fiancee works in student housing and we get free apartments. My loan amount will be smaller if she can find a job in Chicago obviously, but it is unknown today whether or not she'll get one for next year. If she did, then we're talking ~80-90k. 1695 is 20k a year, certainly manageable with a $45k job with no rent, little food cost (I get a meal plan wherever we live). I also have no undergraduate debt and some cash in the bank.
It's worth it to me...many people on this site think school should be free or very cheap, and I get that, I'm just not one of those people

Did you read the article/comments I posted? I wish words could describe just how stupid going to JMLS is (let alone going into 6-figures of debt for it). But even if I had the words, it sounds like your mind is made up already and you are stubborn to boot. Good luck, and pray to whatever your deity of choice is that you don't wind up like the majority of your peers/alumni.

My mind isn't made up. I'm shaking in my boots dude. I know JMLS isn't a good school, and I know it seems a bit ridiculous to pay so much to go there. But if I've already done what I can to improve my score, and am limited by a lousy GPA, what choice do I have if I want to become a lawyer? I don't know what to do, I don't see much of any other options for me.

[sparty99]

Yeah I can afford a job that crappy. My fiancee works in student housing and we get free apartments. My loan amount will be smaller if she can find a job in Chicago obviously, but it is unknown today whether or not she'll get one for next year. If she did, then we're talking ~80-90k. 1695 is 20k a year, certainly manageable with a $45k job with no rent, little food cost (I get a meal plan wherever we live). I also have no undergraduate debt and some cash in the bank.
It's worth it to me...many people on this site think school should be free or very cheap, and I get that, I'm just not one of those people

Did you read the article/comments I posted? I wish words could describe just how stupid going to JMLS is (let alone going into 6-figures of debt for it). But even if I had the words, it sounds like your mind is made up already and you are stubborn to boot. Good luck, and pray to whatever your deity of choice is that you don't wind up like the majority of your peers/alumni.

My mind isn't made up. I'm shaking in my boots dude. I know JMLS isn't a good school, and I know it seems a bit ridiculous to pay so much to go there. But if I've already done what I can to improve my score, and am limited by a lousy GPA, what choice do I have if I want to become a lawyer? I don't know what to do, I don't see much of any other options for me.

You can't go part time or get work experience?

[reddituser]

What about this?
http://www.admissionsdean.com/law_schoo ... employment

It doesn't look fantastic, but it doesn't look so doom and gloom, and I am confident things will look better in 3-4 years

[Tanicius]

Yeah I can afford a job that crappy. My fiancee works in student housing and we get free apartments. My loan amount will be smaller if she can find a job in Chicago obviously, but it is unknown today whether or not she'll get one for next year. If she did, then we're talking ~80-90k. 1695 is 20k a year, certainly manageable with a $45k job with no rent, little food cost (I get a meal plan wherever we live). I also have no undergraduate debt and some cash in the bank.
It's worth it to me...many people on this site think school should be free or very cheap, and I get that, I'm just not one of those people

Did you read the article/comments I posted? I wish words could describe just how stupid going to JMLS is (let alone going into 6-figures of debt for it). But even if I had the words, it sounds like your mind is made up already and you are stubborn to boot. Good luck, and pray to whatever your deity of choice is that you don't wind up like the majority of your peers/alumni.

My mind isn't made up. I'm shaking in my boots dude. I know JMLS isn't a good school, and I know it seems a bit ridiculous to pay so much to go there. But if I've already done what I can to improve my score, and am limited by a lousy GPA, what choice do I have if I want to become a lawyer? I don't know what to do, I don't see much of any other options for me.

Take this to reddit, dude. I'm serious. I bet you the prevailing opinion in the law section will be that JMLS is a mistake.

[beachbum]

What about this?
http://www.admissionsdean.com/law_schoo ... employment

It doesn't look fantastic, but it doesn't look so doom and gloom, and I am confident things will look better in 3-4 years

--LinkRemoved--

And that data represents hiring before the recession.

[reddituser]

Yeah I can afford a job that crappy. My fiancee works in student housing and we get free apartments. My loan amount will be smaller if she can find a job in Chicago obviously, but it is unknown today whether or not she'll get one for next year. If she did, then we're talking ~80-90k. 1695 is 20k a year, certainly manageable with a $45k job with no rent, little food cost (I get a meal plan wherever we live). I also have no undergraduate debt and some cash in the bank.
It's worth it to me...many people on this site think school should be free or very cheap, and I get that, I'm just not one of those people

Did you read the article/comments I posted? I wish words could describe just how stupid going to JMLS is (let alone going into 6-figures of debt for it). But even if I had the words, it sounds like your mind is made up already and you are stubborn to boot. Good luck, and pray to whatever your deity of choice is that you don't wind up like the majority of your peers/alumni.

My mind isn't made up. I'm shaking in my boots dude. I know JMLS isn't a good school, and I know it seems a bit ridiculous to pay so much to go there. But if I've already done what I can to improve my score, and am limited by a lousy GPA, what choice do I have if I want to become a lawyer? I don't know what to do, I don't see much of any other options for me.

You can't go part time or get work experience?

I've been doing that...getting older-time to do this

[sparty99]

I'm 29 bro...you can go part-time....A $40,000 job is the equivalent of a $40,000 scholarship. Less risk. $175k is a lot, especially for a 4th tier.

[reddituser]

I'm 29 bro...you can go part-time....A $40,000 job is the equivalent of a $40,000 scholarship. Less risk. $175k is a lot, especially for a 4th tier.

I am part time, although i doubt I'll be finding a 40k a year job

[sparty99]

I would do John Marshall if I had a $40,000 job. Preferably, higher paying - $50 - 60k. This is the ONLY way I'd go to John Marhshall at $175k.

[romothesavior]

My mind isn't made up. I'm shaking in my boots dude. I know JMLS isn't a good school, and I know it seems a bit ridiculous to pay so much to go there. But if I've already done what I can to improve my score, and am limited by a lousy GPA, what choice do I have if I want to become a lawyer? I don't know what to do, I don't see much of any other options for me.

You're probably from Illinois, right? What about NIU or SIU? It sounds like you are really set on being a lawyer, so you might as well minimize your risk. Both are still pretty poor in terms of placement, but they are a lot cheaper options. SIU is a decent Tier 3 option because it is cheap, and it fills a bit of a niche market (downstate Illinois).

And what about becoming a paralegal? You wouldn't have to take on the debt, and you'd still get to work in the legal industry.

[reddituser]

My mind isn't made up. I'm shaking in my boots dude. I know JMLS isn't a good school, and I know it seems a bit ridiculous to pay so much to go there. But if I've already done what I can to improve my score, and am limited by a lousy GPA, what choice do I have if I want to become a lawyer? I don't know what to do, I don't see much of any other options for me.

You're probably from Illinois, right? What about NIU or SIU? It sounds like you are really set on being a lawyer, so you might as well minimize your risk. Both are still pretty poor in terms of placement, but they are a lot cheaper options. SIU is a decent Tier 3 option because it is cheap, and it fills a bit of a niche market (downstate Illinois).

And what about becoming a paralegal? You wouldn't have to take on the debt, and you'd still get to work in the legal industry.

Haven't lived in IL in a lot of years but yes I am from there. I applied to NIU but haven't heard back yet. You guys may have actually convinced me to give up and just become a bartender.

[reddituser]

My mind isn't made up. I'm shaking in my boots dude. I know JMLS isn't a good school, and I know it seems a bit ridiculous to pay so much to go there. But if I've already done what I can to improve my score, and am limited by a lousy GPA, what choice do I have if I want to become a lawyer? I don't know what to do, I don't see much of any other options for me.

You're probably from Illinois, right? What about NIU or SIU? It sounds like you are really set on being a lawyer, so you might as well minimize your risk. Both are still pretty poor in terms of placement, but they are a lot cheaper options. SIU is a decent Tier 3 option because it is cheap, and it fills a bit of a niche market (downstate Illinois).

And what about becoming a paralegal? You wouldn't have to take on the debt, and you'd still get to work in the legal industry.

I'm also waitlisted at Marquette, but nothing solid. Doesn't seem like the chances of getting off a waitlist are very good.

[romothesavior]

Haven't lived in IL in a lot of years but yes I am from there. I applied to NIU but haven't heard back yet. You guys may have actually convinced me to give up and just become a bartender.

I dunno if that is the right move (I obviously don't know you), but it is probably better than being a bartender three years from now with a J.D. and mountains of debt. I (and others) don't make the doom and gloom posts because I enjoy it, or because I have any dog in the race. I just hate to see another person waste their money on a school like that. I'm a 1L at a top-20 school, and I'll be blunt in saying that even here, many students are struggling to find work and I am pretty worried about my ability to handle my debt after graduation (which is far less debt than yours would be). I think most people who are in law school would all say the same thing: the legal market sucks, and going to a school like JMLS is not a good path to finding career in the field.

What other sorts of jobs could you look into? And what did you do to study for the LSAT? If you want to be a lawyer, you really need to go somewhere better than JMLS, and that will probably require a better score. You don't think you could possibly raise that score any?

[reddituser]

Haven't lived in IL in a lot of years but yes I am from there. I applied to NIU but haven't heard back yet. You guys may have actually convinced me to give up and just become a bartender.

I dunno if that is the right move (I obviously don't know you), but it is probably better than being a bartender three years from now with a J.D. and mountains of debt. I (and others) don't make the doom and gloom posts because I enjoy it, or because I have any dog in the race. I just hate to see another person waste their money on a school like that. I'm a 1L at a top-20 school, and I'll be blunt in saying that even here, many students are struggling to find work and I am pretty worried about my ability to handle my debt after graduation (which is far less debt than yours would be). I think most people who are in law school would all say the same thing: the legal market sucks, and going to a school like JMLS is not a good path to finding career in the field.

What other sorts of jobs could you look into? And what did you do to study for the LSAT? If you want to be a lawyer, you really need to go somewhere better than JMLS, and that will probably require a better score. You don't think you could possibly raise that score any?

I got a 146 two years ago, studied for a few months and did testmasters. in practice i got up to 170 but obviously didn't shine on test day.

[FuManChusco]

My mind isn't made up. I'm shaking in my boots dude. I know JMLS isn't a good school, and I know it seems a bit ridiculous to pay so much to go there. But if I've already done what I can to improve my score, and am limited by a lousy GPA, what choice do I have if I want to become a lawyer? I don't know what to do, I don't see much of any other options for me.

You're probably from Illinois, right? What about NIU or SIU? It sounds like you are really set on being a lawyer, so you might as well minimize your risk. Both are still pretty poor in terms of placement, but they are a lot cheaper options. SIU is a decent Tier 3 option because it is cheap, and it fills a bit of a niche market (downstate Illinois).

And what about becoming a paralegal? You wouldn't have to take on the debt, and you'd still get to work in the legal industry.

Haven't lived in IL in a lot of years but yes I am from there. I applied to NIU but haven't heard back yet. You guys may have actually convinced me to give up and just become a bartender.

Bartending would be a good decision financially. Everyone understands that you want to be a lawyer, but unfortunately your chances of working as an attorney from JMLS are slim. Would you rather not be a lawyer living comfortably, or not be a lwayer with 175k in debt?