New US News Rankings 2023-2024 Forum

[jbagelboy]

And after 14 pages of squabbling, the “preview” released by US News won’t even be the final 2023-24 rankings, which are delayed indefinitely as announced this week: https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press ... s-rankings

[Anonymous User]

I revise my earlier anon statement. The people ITT arguing that Cravath is somehow comparable to Wachtell (and superior to or dissimilar from Davis Polk, S&C, ect.) suffer from a more extreme departure from reality than the people arguing that UChicago has somehow surpassed HLS as a law school. Both statements are bad, but the Cravath-worship is worse.

No one says Uchi is better. They are peers and have been peers for a long time under all the "lay prestige" "self-selection" "big class size" BS. If HLS students would just stop latching onto Y/S and calling the school "my HYS" it would be nice.

[Anonymous User]

And after 14 pages of squabbling, the “preview” released by US News won’t even be the final 2023-24 rankings, which are delayed indefinitely as announced this week: https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press ... s-rankings

I'd like to think they have an intern whose job is to read schizo threads like this one and then they decide to tweak the official rankings based on that.

[Anonymous User]

And after 14 pages of squabbling, the “preview” released by US News won’t even be the final 2023-24 rankings, which are delayed indefinitely as announced this week: https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press ... s-rankings

I'd like to think they have an intern whose job is to read schizo threads like this one and then they decide to tweak the official rankings based on that.

I’m certain they do, though it’s more likely reviewed by the one guy who makes the secret ranking formula each year. TLS is the hive mind of elite law student internet opinion and USNWR knows they ignore us at their peril.

[Anonymous User]

I revise my earlier anon statement. The people ITT arguing that Cravath is somehow comparable to Wachtell (and superior to or dissimilar from Davis Polk, S&C, ect.) suffer from a more extreme departure from reality than the people arguing that UChicago has somehow surpassed HLS as a law school. Both statements are bad, but the Cravath-worship is worse.

No one says Uchi is better. They are peers and have been peers for a long time under all the "lay prestige" "self-selection" "big class size" BS. If HLS students would just stop latching onto Y/S and calling the school "my HYS" it would be nice.

Dude it's okay that you took Chicago over Harvard for $$. But don't delude yourself into thinking they're peers. Every "advantage" Chicago has over Harvard is entirely due to self-selection

[laanngo]

going to school in California helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state

Yes, but the below market housing insulates students. When they graduate, they'll be in for a shock.

[Anonymous User]

I revise my earlier anon statement. The people ITT arguing that Cravath is somehow comparable to Wachtell (and superior to or dissimilar from Davis Polk, S&C, ect.) suffer from a more extreme departure from reality than the people arguing that UChicago has somehow surpassed HLS as a law school. Both statements are bad, but the Cravath-worship is worse.

No one says Uchi is better. They are peers and have been peers for a long time under all the "lay prestige" "self-selection" "big class size" BS. If HLS students would just stop latching onto Y/S and calling the school "my HYS" it would be nice.

Dude it's okay that you took Chicago over Harvard for $$. But don't delude yourself into thinking they're peers. Every "advantage" Chicago has over Harvard is entirely due to self-selection

LOL at the self-selection talk again. At Y/S. It's more delusional to think HLS is Y/S's peer. Sorry.

[Anonymous User]

I revise my earlier anon statement. The people ITT arguing that Cravath is somehow comparable to Wachtell (and superior to or dissimilar from Davis Polk, S&C, ect.) suffer from a more extreme departure from reality than the people arguing that UChicago has somehow surpassed HLS as a law school. Both statements are bad, but the Cravath-worship is worse.

No one says Uchi is better. They are peers and have been peers for a long time under all the "lay prestige" "self-selection" "big class size" BS. If HLS students would just stop latching onto Y/S and calling the school "my HYS" it would be nice.

Dude it's okay that you took Chicago over Harvard for $$. But don't delude yourself into thinking they're peers. Every "advantage" Chicago has over Harvard is entirely due to self-selection

Also better to refer to the school as "HLS" or "Harvard Law" instead of "Harvard". "Harvard" refers to the undergrad, or in specific contexts, other similarly undisputed top programs in their respective fields, like the med school and business school. Kinda weird to call a 3rd/4th best law school "Harvard" and unfair to the undergrads to have a bunch of state school kids mooch off their hard-earned prestige.

[nixy]

going to school in California helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state

Yes, but the below market housing insulates students. When they graduate, they'll be in for a shock.

To the extent that’s actually true, so what? I was talking about reasons to go to Stanford in the first place, not whether Stanford students actually do stay in CA after they graduate. (Although I think Stanford law students are capable of both figuring out what the housing costs are going to be after graduation, and paying for those costs.)

[laanngo]

going to school in California helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state

Yes, but the below market housing insulates students. When they graduate, they'll be in for a shock.

To the extent that’s actually true, so what? I was talking about reasons to go to Stanford in the first place, not whether Stanford students actually do stay in CA after they graduate. (Although I think Stanford law students are capable of both figuring out what the housing costs are going to be after graduation, and paying for those costs.)

It's a reason to take attending Stanford as a commitment to living in CA with a grain of salt, even if it is the 2nd best law school.

[Anonymous User]

going to school in California helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state

Yes, but the below market housing insulates students. When they graduate, they'll be in for a shock.

To the extent that’s actually true, so what? I was talking about reasons to go to Stanford in the first place, not whether Stanford students actually do stay in CA after they graduate. (Although I think Stanford law students are capable of both figuring out what the housing costs are going to be after graduation, and paying for those costs.)

It's a reason to take attending Stanford as a commitment to living in CA with a grain of salt, even if it is the 2nd best law school.

*3rd

[Anonymous User]

*3rd

chicago folks really getting ahead of themselves

[nixy]

going to school in California helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state

Yes, but the below market housing insulates students. When they graduate, they'll be in for a shock.

To the extent that’s actually true, so what? I was talking about reasons to go to Stanford in the first place, not whether Stanford students actually do stay in CA after they graduate. (Although I think Stanford law students are capable of both figuring out what the housing costs are going to be after graduation, and paying for those costs.)

It's a reason to take attending Stanford as a commitment to living in CA with a grain of salt, even if it is the 2nd best law school.

Dude no.

[laanngo]

going to school in California helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state

Yes, but the below market housing insulates students. When they graduate, they'll be in for a shock.

To the extent that’s actually true, so what? I was talking about reasons to go to Stanford in the first place, not whether Stanford students actually do stay in CA after they graduate. (Although I think Stanford law students are capable of both figuring out what the housing costs are going to be after graduation, and paying for those costs.)

It's a reason to take attending Stanford as a commitment to living in CA with a grain of salt, even if it is the 2nd best law school.

Dude no.

How's that any different from saying someone with a rent-controlled apartment in Manhattan is insulated from the rental prices in other dense walkable environments in the US?

[Anonymous User]

going to school in California helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state

Yes, but the below market housing insulates students. When they graduate, they'll be in for a shock.

To the extent that’s actually true, so what? I was talking about reasons to go to Stanford in the first place, not whether Stanford students actually do stay in CA after they graduate. (Although I think Stanford law students are capable of both figuring out what the housing costs are going to be after graduation, and paying for those costs.)

It's a reason to take attending Stanford as a commitment to living in CA with a grain of salt, even if it is the 2nd best law school.

This is incredible troll logic lmfao. Realistically, your median Stanford grad is going to be choosing between California, DC, and NY. Housing costs isn't going to be a deciding factor in the choice of location between those three.

[laanngo]

going to school in California helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state

Yes, but the below market housing insulates students. When they graduate, they'll be in for a shock.

To the extent that’s actually true, so what? I was talking about reasons to go to Stanford in the first place, not whether Stanford students actually do stay in CA after they graduate. (Although I think Stanford law students are capable of both figuring out what the housing costs are going to be after graduation, and paying for those costs.)

It's a reason to take attending Stanford as a commitment to living in CA with a grain of salt, even if it is the 2nd best law school.

This is incredible troll logic lmfao. Realistically, your median Stanford grad is going to be choosing between California, DC, and NY. Housing costs isn't going to be a deciding factor in the choice of location between those three.

No, it means they're a flight risk.

[nixy]

going to school in California helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state

Yes, but the below market housing insulates students. When they graduate, they'll be in for a shock.

To the extent that’s actually true, so what? I was talking about reasons to go to Stanford in the first place, not whether Stanford students actually do stay in CA after they graduate. (Although I think Stanford law students are capable of both figuring out what the housing costs are going to be after graduation, and paying for those costs.)

It's a reason to take attending Stanford as a commitment to living in CA with a grain of salt, even if it is the 2nd best law school.

This is incredible troll logic lmfao. Realistically, your median Stanford grad is going to be choosing between California, DC, and NY. Housing costs isn't going to be a deciding factor in the choice of location between those three.

No, it means they're a flight risk.

Not because of housing costs.

[Anonymous User]

And after 14 pages of squabbling, the “preview” released by US News won’t even be the final 2023-24 rankings, which are delayed indefinitely as announced this week: https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press ... s-rankings

Anyone else find it hilarious that in reality what “dropping out” of the rankings meant was that the law schools would no longer provide data to US News. Yet, now the schools are all essentially requesting to correct/challenge/add data. Law school profs and administrators are so full of shit when they act like they don’t care about these rankings.

[Anonymous User]

And after 14 pages of squabbling, the “preview” released by US News won’t even be the final 2023-24 rankings, which are delayed indefinitely as announced this week: https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press ... s-rankings

Anyone else find it hilarious that in reality what “dropping out” of the rankings meant was that the law schools would no longer provide data to US News. Yet, now the schools are all essentially requesting to correct/challenge/add data. Law school profs and administrators are so full of shit when they act like they don’t care about these rankings.

Maybe, but we don't know which law schools requested to add data. It could be Chicago

[Anonymous User]

And after 14 pages of squabbling, the “preview” released by US News won’t even be the final 2023-24 rankings, which are delayed indefinitely as announced this week: https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press ... s-rankings

Anyone else find it hilarious that in reality what “dropping out” of the rankings meant was that the law schools would no longer provide data to US News. Yet, now the schools are all essentially requesting to correct/challenge/add data. Law school profs and administrators are so full of shit when they act like they don’t care about these rankings.

Maybe, but we don't know which law schools requested to add data. It could be Chicago

Per this NY Times piece (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/21/us/2 ... chool.html), it seems at least Yale and Berkeley requested corrections.

What's actually funny is US News publishing some nonsensical rankings (Duke above CLS?) that purport to focus on outcomes but get the ABA-submitted employment data so blatantly wrong as to essentially bait these schools into submitting corrections. If USNWR at least used accurate data, not sure schools would've reached out to correct things like was suggested, but it's funny that USNWR got the data wrong enough to force the schools' hands. (+ If USNWR data was indeed accurate, I think they'd try to have some integrity and stand by their preview a little more...)

[Anonymous User]

And after 14 pages of squabbling, the “preview” released by US News won’t even be the final 2023-24 rankings, which are delayed indefinitely as announced this week: https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press ... s-rankings

Anyone else find it hilarious that in reality what “dropping out” of the rankings meant was that the law schools would no longer provide data to US News. Yet, now the schools are all essentially requesting to correct/challenge/add data. Law school profs and administrators are so full of shit when they act like they don’t care about these rankings.

Maybe, but we don't know which law schools requested to add data. It could be Chicago

Per this NY Times piece (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/21/us/2 ... chool.html), it seems at least Yale and Berkeley requested corrections.

What's actually funny is US News publishing some nonsensical rankings (Duke above CLS?) that purport to focus on outcomes but get the ABA-submitted employment data so blatantly wrong as to essentially bait these schools into submitting corrections. If USNWR at least used accurate data, not sure schools would've reached out to correct things like was suggested, but it's funny that USNWR got the data wrong enough to force the schools' hands. (+ If USNWR data was indeed accurate, I think they'd try to have some integrity and stand by their preview a little more...)

Derek Muller, a prof who writes a lot about rankings dynamics, says USNWR is right and YLS and Berkeley’s concerns are bad-faith. No idea if that’s right but I think it’s too soon to say that USNWR messed up.

https://excessofdemocracy.com/blog/2023 ... ethodology

[Anonymous User]

And after 14 pages of squabbling, the “preview” released by US News won’t even be the final 2023-24 rankings, which are delayed indefinitely as announced this week: https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press ... s-rankings

Anyone else find it hilarious that in reality what “dropping out” of the rankings meant was that the law schools would no longer provide data to US News. Yet, now the schools are all essentially requesting to correct/challenge/add data. Law school profs and administrators are so full of shit when they act like they don’t care about these rankings.

Maybe, but we don't know which law schools requested to add data. It could be Chicago

Per this NY Times piece (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/21/us/2 ... chool.html), it seems at least Yale and Berkeley requested corrections.

What's actually funny is US News publishing some nonsensical rankings (Duke above CLS?) that purport to focus on outcomes but get the ABA-submitted employment data so blatantly wrong as to essentially bait these schools into submitting corrections. If USNWR at least used accurate data, not sure schools would've reached out to correct things like was suggested, but it's funny that USNWR got the data wrong enough to force the schools' hands. (+ If USNWR data was indeed accurate, I think they'd try to have some integrity and stand by their preview a little more...)

Derek Muller, a prof who writes a lot about rankings dynamics, says USNWR is right and YLS and Berkeley’s concerns are bad-faith. No idea if that’s right but I think it’s too soon to say that USNWR messed up.

https://excessofdemocracy.com/blog/2023 ... ethodology

Interesting - thanks for sharing. I just would think USNWR wouldn't have withdrawn & delayed indefinitely if they were so confident in their data/methodology/whatever, but perhaps they plan to come back with an explanation about the changes from prior year to justify them a little bit to the public (+ to maintain their credibility), even if they do end up looking similar to the preview.

[Anonymous User]

Yale got the top spot, what's their complaint?

[dyemond]

And after 14 pages of squabbling, the “preview” released by US News won’t even be the final 2023-24 rankings, which are delayed indefinitely as announced this week: https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press ... s-rankings

Anyone else find it hilarious that in reality what “dropping out” of the rankings meant was that the law schools would no longer provide data to US News. Yet, now the schools are all essentially requesting to correct/challenge/add data. Law school profs and administrators are so full of shit when they act like they don’t care about these rankings.

Maybe, but we don't know which law schools requested to add data. It could be Chicago

Per this NY Times piece (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/21/us/2 ... chool.html), it seems at least Yale and Berkeley requested corrections.

What's actually funny is US News publishing some nonsensical rankings (Duke above CLS?) that purport to focus on outcomes but get the ABA-submitted employment data so blatantly wrong as to essentially bait these schools into submitting corrections. If USNWR at least used accurate data, not sure schools would've reached out to correct things like was suggested, but it's funny that USNWR got the data wrong enough to force the schools' hands. (+ If USNWR data was indeed accurate, I think they'd try to have some integrity and stand by their preview a little more...)

Derek Muller, a prof who writes a lot about rankings dynamics, says USNWR is right and YLS and Berkeley’s concerns are bad-faith. No idea if that’s right but I think it’s too soon to say that USNWR messed up.

https://excessofdemocracy.com/blog/2023 ... ethodology

Why are 30 YLS grads doing “school funded” positions? In the context of YLS, literally what is that?

[throwawayt14]

And after 14 pages of squabbling, the “preview” released by US News won’t even be the final 2023-24 rankings, which are delayed indefinitely as announced this week: https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press ... s-rankings

Anyone else find it hilarious that in reality what “dropping out” of the rankings meant was that the law schools would no longer provide data to US News. Yet, now the schools are all essentially requesting to correct/challenge/add data. Law school profs and administrators are so full of shit when they act like they don’t care about these rankings.

Maybe, but we don't know which law schools requested to add data. It could be Chicago

Per this NY Times piece (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/21/us/2 ... chool.html), it seems at least Yale and Berkeley requested corrections.

What's actually funny is US News publishing some nonsensical rankings (Duke above CLS?) that purport to focus on outcomes but get the ABA-submitted employment data so blatantly wrong as to essentially bait these schools into submitting corrections. If USNWR at least used accurate data, not sure schools would've reached out to correct things like was suggested, but it's funny that USNWR got the data wrong enough to force the schools' hands. (+ If USNWR data was indeed accurate, I think they'd try to have some integrity and stand by their preview a little more...)

Derek Muller, a prof who writes a lot about rankings dynamics, says USNWR is right and YLS and Berkeley’s concerns are bad-faith. No idea if that’s right but I think it’s too soon to say that USNWR messed up.

https://excessofdemocracy.com/blog/2023 ... ethodology

Why are 30 YLS grads doing “school funded” positions? In the context of YLS, literally what is that?

Public interest students getting fellowships.