Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[star fox]

I need to correct a mistake. The employment data this year will be for 9 months after graduation, not 10 months after graduation. I've said erroneously that the change to 10 months will happen this year. It is next year. Sorry about the mixed signals.

Few opines..

Should LST stop counting school funded in LTFT? If not, shouldn't you at least show which schools are gaming LTFT by recording so many school funded peps in this category? Maybe change school funded and include a breakdown, or just flat out remove all school funded from the employment score as suggested above.

Is there anyway to distinguish between state and local clerkships? Having state Supreme Court and traffic court in the same category is very meh, no?

You don't want to play around too much though. I think people assume that a student funded position at Yale and one at George Washington are not the same outcome. The more factual the data the more useful.

[AAJD2B]

It would be great if they ever did 5, 10, and 20 year studies. It would obviously require full salary disclosure since things like small firms, solos, and non practicing business jobs will vary widely as far as desirable employment goes.

I agree but you'd be surprised as to how many graduates no longer use their JDs or become inactive several years out. Such studies would be skewed.

[bowser]

I found Michigan's numbers:

(17+32+148+31)/399 = 57.1%

Link

7% of the class is "unemployed-seeking"

Over an eighth of the class is either unemployed-seeking, ST, or PT

I don't know if anyone's every mentioned this before, but is it possible that the reason Michigan's unemployment numbers are so high as compared to their big law + fed clerk numbers is partially due to the fact that even though people in the legal field understand that Michigan is a top school with a lot of prestige, unlike the rest of the T14s, the Michigan name doesn't sound as good to people hiring for jobs outside of the legal field? I feel that it's very possible that as far as getting good non-legal jobs goes, Michigan could be the worst of the T14s due to its relative lack of lay prestige. (Not that this should affect anyone's decision to go there, but just putting it out there.)

It's due mostly to the way Michigan handles school-funded jobs. Schools like UVA and Columbia offer year-long full-time school-funded fellowships to basically everyone, it seems. Other schools handle it differently; most of Michigan's school-funded jobs are short-term.

[californiauser]

Over an eighth of the class is either unemployed-seeking, ST, or PT

I don't know if anyone's every mentioned this before, but is it possible that the reason Michigan's unemployment numbers are so high as compared to their big law + fed clerk numbers is partially due to the fact that even though people in the legal field understand that Michigan is a top school with a lot of prestige, unlike the rest of the T14s, the Michigan name doesn't sound as good to people hiring for jobs outside of the legal field? I feel that it's very possible that as far as getting good non-legal jobs goes, Michigan could be the worst of the T14s due to its relative lack of lay prestige. (Not that this should affect anyone's decision to go there, but just putting it out there.)

At least in the Midwest, Michigan has lots of lay prestige. I think the much bigger issue is they don't have a home market now that Detroit is basically done. Look at how Duke places relative to Cornell for a similar situation.[/quote]

Yep. I bet a ton (most?) Michigan students want to stay in the mid west. Outside of Chicago, those jobs are few and far between.

[McAvoy]

Vandy up:

https://law.vanderbilt.edu/employers-cs ... ummary.pdf

I got 17+15+42+19/206 = 45%

Edit: looks like the link is broken, but it works if you download from here: https://law.vanderbilt.edu/aba-disclosures.php

Pretty good for a non T14 in the "new normal". Do these numbers seem right to recent Vandy grads/3Ls?

This.

The 3L panel at the ASP insinuated the employment outlook was all rainbows and butterflies for non PI. They seemed to be sincere about it, and essentially said those who don't get a job aren't trying or don't know what they're doing. Curious if others could chime in, as I'm skeptical.

[03152016]

Female, actually, and I know that I will...at considerably less the cost.

Enjoy that debt for the marginally better chance to slave at a law firm.

First, I haven't gotten any financial aid info yet, so your premise is false. Second, the poster I was responding to was misinterpreting data about Cornell. I made a fair argument about why Cornell does not beat NYU in placement. For some reason (I have an inkling as to why) you decide to go into my post history and use my legitimate concerns about going into debt to attack my argument and belittle me.

So not only is your argument a bad one, but you're also a shitty person.

Just slowly back away.

Amazing link.

Grandiosity refers to an unrealistic sense of superiority - a sustained view of oneself as better than others that causes the narcissist to view others with disdain or as inferior - as well as to a sense of uniqueness: the belief that few others have anything in common with oneself and that one can only be understood by a few or very special people.

[rad lulz]

f

[AAJD2B]

Over an eighth of the class is either unemployed-seeking, ST, or PT

I don't know if anyone's every mentioned this before, but is it possible that the reason Michigan's unemployment numbers are so high as compared to their big law + fed clerk numbers is partially due to the fact that even though people in the legal field understand that Michigan is a top school with a lot of prestige, unlike the rest of the T14s, the Michigan name doesn't sound as good to people hiring for jobs outside of the legal field? I feel that it's very possible that as far as getting good non-legal jobs goes, Michigan could be the worst of the T14s due to its relative lack of lay prestige. (Not that this should affect anyone's decision to go there, but just putting it out there.)

At least in the Midwest, Michigan has lots of lay prestige. I think the much bigger issue is they don't have a home market now that Detroit is basically done. Look at how Duke places relative to Cornell for a similar situation.

Yep. I bet a ton (most?) Michigan students want to stay in the mid west. Outside of Chicago, those jobs are few and far between.[/quote]

Yeah, which would explain most of their grads being placed in NYC. I will definitely make mention of this at their upcoming NYC reception at WilmerHale. Would be curious to hear the opinions of Michigan alum regarding their stats.

[californiauser]

Yeah, which would explain most of their grads being placed in NYC. I will definitely make mention of this at their upcoming NYC reception at WilmerHale. Would be curious to hear the opinions of Michigan alum regarding their stats.

At the reception I attended, all the recent grads said they didn't have a problem making it to California with a little bit of hustle, but obviously the people who attend alumni receptions aren't a totally representative group of the whole student body.

[lecsa]

.

[rad lulz]

f

[star fox]

Vandy up:

https://law.vanderbilt.edu/employers-cs ... ummary.pdf

I got 17+15+42+19/206 = 45%

Edit: looks like the link is broken, but it works if you download from here: https://law.vanderbilt.edu/aba-disclosures.php

Pretty good for a non T14 in the "new normal". Do these numbers seem right to recent Vandy grads/3Ls?

Seems right

Thanks rad!

[04102014]

Female, actually, and I know that I will...at considerably less the cost.

Enjoy that debt for the marginally better chance to slave at a law firm.

First, I haven't gotten any financial aid info yet, so your premise is false. Second, the poster I was responding to was misinterpreting data about Cornell. I made a fair argument about why Cornell does not beat NYU in placement. For some reason (I have an inkling as to why) you decide to go into my post history and use my legitimate concerns about going into debt to attack my argument and belittle me.

So not only is your argument a bad one, but you're also a shitty person.

Just slowly back away.

[04102014]

Any idea why Georgetown's numbers are so much worse than the rest of the T-14's?

Graduating class of 645 does not help.

[UVAIce]

Do not underestimate the power of firms trying to build a mixed class of summer associates. It really shouldn't be surprising that schools with smaller class sizes just tend to always punch above their weight in terms of percentage of students employed. I know one of the rumors here, UVA, is that they are looking to admit a class of ~300 students rather than the ~350+ that has been typical here.

[04102014]

Do not underestimate the power of firms trying to build a mixed class of summer associates. It really shouldn't be surprising that schools with smaller class sizes just tend to always punch above their weight in terms of percentage of students employed. I know one of the rumors here, UVA, is that they are looking to admit a class of ~300 students rather than the ~350+ that has been typical here.

A friend who went to Michigan said that Sullivan & Cromwell told her during OCI that they were actively seeking Michigan grads to help build a diverse summer class. Anecdotal obv, but whatever.

[rieux87]

Over an eighth of the class is either unemployed-seeking, ST, or PT

I don't know if anyone's every mentioned this before, but is it possible that the reason Michigan's unemployment numbers are so high as compared to their big law + fed clerk numbers is partially due to the fact that even though people in the legal field understand that Michigan is a top school with a lot of prestige, unlike the rest of the T14s, the Michigan name doesn't sound as good to people hiring for jobs outside of the legal field? I feel that it's very possible that as far as getting good non-legal jobs goes, Michigan could be the worst of the T14s due to its relative lack of lay prestige. (Not that this should affect anyone's decision to go there, but just putting it out there.)

At least in the Midwest, Michigan has lots of lay prestige. I think the much bigger issue is they don't have a home market now that Detroit is basically done. Look at how Duke places relative to Cornell for a similar situation.

Yep. I bet a ton (most?) Michigan students want to stay in the mid west. Outside of Chicago, those jobs are few and far between.

Yeah, which would explain most of their grads being placed in NYC. I will definitely make mention of this at their upcoming NYC reception at WilmerHale. Would be curious to hear the opinions of Michigan alum regarding their stats.[/quote]


went to mich. wouldn't say most mich grads want to stay in the midwest, but it's always seemed that most don't necessarily want to be in nyc. it's not as nyc-focused as other schools, which obviously affects job #s.

[AAJD2B]

Yeah, which would explain most of their grads being placed in NYC. I will definitely make mention of this at their upcoming NYC reception at WilmerHale. Would be curious to hear the opinions of Michigan alum regarding their stats.

At the reception I attended, all the recent grads said they didn't have a problem making it to California with a little bit of hustle, but obviously the people who attend alumni receptions aren't a totally representative group of the whole student body.

Very true (re: representation). Would love to hear how your reception compared to the others you attended (you know where I reference).

[SLS_AMG]

There is no doubt in my mind that Michigan's 2013 numbers will show them to be a clear bottom-dweller of the T14 along with Georgetown. Upon this occurrence, I believe that a new T12 designation should be enforced. I've noticed that people are quick to jump down GULC's throat and start proclaiming T13 whenever the stats are observed, but nowhere near as many people seem to be able to stomach the fact that Michigan does not compare to the other non GULC T14s either. Why not T12? I've never seen anyone write T12.

In fact, I'd bet anything Michigan's numbers are going to be closer to GULC's than they are to the next-to-worst T14. (It's a given that they certainly won't be better than any T-14 besides GULC).

I realize you're probably flame but UM places 3%-4% less at the top 250 firms in comparison to UVA, Berk, and Cornell. It's definitely the 13th strongest big law school, but it's close enough to the rest to deserve to be included in the t13--unless the ABA data shows something inexplicably bad.

http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202643450571

So your response is to post one year of statistics? How about the year before? http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/20 ... tatistics/

10% behind Duke and 7% behind Berkeley.

Or how about the year before that?

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/20 ... tatistics/

14% behind Berkeley. 9% behind Duke. 8% behind UVA.

[Princetonlaw68]

I know some people were debating the merits of evaluating what percentage of those hired into 100+ firms were hired into 500+ firms. I don't mean to insinuate anything, but just to provide data. Take this for what it's worth.

Percent of those in big law hired by firms w/ 500+:

Vandy: 42/74=57%

Gtown: 210/267=78.7%

I think the difference is surprisingly large given how close their 100+ numbers were. I also believe this helps illustrate the divide between a T14 like Gtown, and a great non-T14 like Vandy.

[McAvoy]

Yeah that rainbows and butterflies stuff is horse shit, and it's belittling to those who are struggling (including me when I was a 3L) to say we weren't trying or that we didn't know how to job search. I'd really like to give a stern talking to to whoever said that

It is not easy to get those cools jobs which is true re others from schools in vandy peer group as well

Someone last yr on a 3l panel gave some real talk insinuated that it wasn't all rainbows and butterflies and I bet that they're trying to control more who they put up on panels now

45% is pretty good though

Yeah 45% is definitely nothing to scoff at.

Most of the panel were all BigLaw bound to DC. One was a 2L associate in DC. One was a PI guy who gave a little real talk (about LRAP and clinics only taking 3Ls) but said that he had "overcome" the PI obstacles. The last one was working for the Attorney General of Alabama. Probably not a real representative group. Every one of them gave long and detailed answers to every non-employment question, then gave company line answers to every employment question. "I believe we had 96% employment for last class. Next question" -- that type of thing.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the school, the professors I met/saw and the visit, but the student panel rubbed me the wrong way.

[Princetonlaw68]

There is no doubt in my mind that Michigan's 2013 numbers will show them to be a clear bottom-dweller of the T14 along with Georgetown. Upon this occurrence, I believe that a new T12 designation should be enforced. I've noticed that people are quick to jump down GULC's throat and start proclaiming T13 whenever the stats are observed, but nowhere near as many people seem to be able to stomach the fact that Michigan does not compare to the other non GULC T14s either. Why not T12? I've never seen anyone write T12.

In fact, I'd bet anything Michigan's numbers are going to be closer to GULC's than they are to the next-to-worst T14. (It's a given that they certainly won't be better than any T-14 besides GULC).

I realize you're probably flame but UM places 3%-4% less at the top 250 firms in comparison to UVA, Berk, and Cornell. It's definitely the 13th strongest big law school, but it's close enough to the rest to deserve to be included in the t13--unless the ABA data shows something inexplicably bad.

http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202643450571

So your response is to post one year of statistics? How about the year before? http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/20 ... tatistics/

10% behind Duke and 7% behind Berkeley.

Or how about the year before that?

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/20 ... tatistics/

14% behind Berkeley. 9% behind Duke. 8% behind UVA.

Just to clarify, I made this post before the Mich numbers were out. Had I made the bet that I was talking about, I would have lost. Nevertheless, the thing that I was certain of (not a bet) was verified to be true, as I'm sure anyone would have guessed. Based on this year's numbers though, the T12 designation would not make sense.

[McAvoy]

I know some people were debating the merits of evaluating what percentage of those hired into 100+ firms were hired into 500+ firms. I don't mean to insinuate anything, but just to provide data. Take this for what it's worth.

Percent of those in big law hired by firms w/ 500+:

Vandy: 42/74=57%

Gtown: 210/267=78.7%

I think the difference is surprisingly large given how close their 100+ numbers were. I also believe this helps illustrate the divide between a T14 like Gtown, and a great non-T14 like Vandy.

For sure, and not trying to defend Vandy too much, but a lot of the class self-selects back to the South, where a 100+ firm salary and a Southern COL is not too different from 160K in NYC or DC. Unfortunately we don't have the specific data to confirm whether that's what actually happens, but it seems reasonable to speculate by class composition.

[lecsa]

.

[kaiser]

I know some people were debating the merits of evaluating what percentage of those hired into 100+ firms were hired into 500+ firms. I don't mean to insinuate anything, but just to provide data. Take this for what it's worth.

Percent of those in big law hired by firms w/ 500+:

Vandy: 42/74=57%

Gtown: 210/267=78.7%

I think the difference is surprisingly large given how close their 100+ numbers were. I also believe this helps illustrate the divide between a T14 like Gtown, and a great non-T14 like Vandy.

For sure, and not trying to defend Vandy too much, but a lot of the class self-selects back to the South, where a 100+ firm salary and a Southern COL is not too different from 160K in NYC or DC.

It's kind of funny how TLS thinks there's a huge difference in hiring tiers at biglaw firms. A lot of hiring depends on where partners went to school. I work at NY biglaw firm, and the tiers are pretty much just Yale in its own league, then Harvard, then Columbia/NYU (these are the big four schools), then Penn/Michigan/UVA/Duke/Georgetown. We have maybe a couple Cornell and a couple Vandy grads. We don't really have any Stanford/Berkeley grads, but we don't have large offices in California so we don't actively recruit. The big schools we recruit heavily from are still Yale, Harvard, Columbia, and NYU. The rest is a crap shoot. A lot of the partners are Harvard and Columbia grads. A lot of lower tier grads too, so we recruit some from lower tier schools (order of the coif types).

Pretty much the same at my firm, though not too many Yale folks at my place. Tons of Columbia and NYU people, and quite a few Harvard and Penn grads. Those 4 make up a very large contingent of our lawyers. And beyond that, its very scattered.