New US News Rankings 2023-2024 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Yale has always been #1 in rankings not because it ranks better in peer reputation or industry reputation, but because it's expenditures per students are huge because of its small class size. Thats literally the only reason it has been number 1 for years over H.

But in any case it will make no difference to almost everyone whether you go to H or chicago..

and yet expenditures per student was removed from the equation in this new US news ranking but HLS went down relative to Yale

Owned. LOLLLLL I find it so funny how persistent and creative the HLS students are in their desperate attempts to get in the conversation with Yale but all they get now is Chicago.

Silly anon. U.S. News fixes the outcome first, and then creates the methodology.

[CondescendingLiberal]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:

New York:
Yale
Harvard/Stanford
Chicago/Columbia, followed very closely but not entirely interchangeably by NYU, UPenn
Rest of T14

DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

In none of these jurisdictions would Chicago be perceived as more desirable than HLS, but in DC, I think Chicago has edged out the rest of the T14. Maybe in the Chicago market itself UChicago is punching above HLS, I honestly have no idea.

*To the extent the commercial magazine rankings are inconsistent with this, IME, they are not representative of the actual perception of law schools.

Kind of impossible to have the knowledge to rank in this manner, but hey, that’s what speculative threads are for:

No way Yale is viewed by NYC firms as the top. Too many firm lawyers express disappointment with Yale graduates, especially on the corporate side.

2022/21 DC employment stats raw numbers:

Stanford: 21
Chicago: not enough to list on ABA reports (somewhere under 25)
Yale: 46
UVA: 64
Harvard: 97
Georgetown: 273

Georgetown has an unfair advantage because so many graduates populate the DC firms and agencies and these people self replicate but the same phenomena happens with Yale SCOTUS appointees selecting Yale clerks and that’s just the way it is.

lol it's not an unfair advantage. that's literally the reason people go to Georgetown

[Anonymous User]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:

New York:
Yale
Harvard/Stanford
Chicago/Columbia, followed very closely but not entirely interchangeably by NYU, UPenn
Rest of T14

DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

In none of these jurisdictions would Chicago be perceived as more desirable than HLS, but in DC, I think Chicago has edged out the rest of the T14. Maybe in the Chicago market itself UChicago is punching above HLS, I honestly have no idea.

*To the extent the commercial magazine rankings are inconsistent with this, IME, they are not representative of the actual perception of law schools.

Kind of impossible to have the knowledge to rank in this manner, but hey, that’s what speculative threads are for:

No way Yale is viewed by NYC firms as the top. Too many firm lawyers express disappointment with Yale graduates, especially on the corporate side.

2022/21 DC employment stats raw numbers:

Stanford: 21
Chicago: not enough to list on ABA reports (somewhere under 25)
Yale: 46
UVA: 64
Harvard: 97
Georgetown: 273

Georgetown has an unfair advantage because so many graduates populate the DC firms and agencies and these people self replicate but the same phenomena happens with Yale SCOTUS appointees selecting Yale clerks and that’s just the way it is.

lol it's not an unfair advantage. that's literally the reason people go to Georgetown

It’s literally unfair because hiring attorneys aren’t using USNWR rankings to make decisions.

[CondescendingLiberal]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:

New York:
Yale
Harvard/Stanford
Chicago/Columbia, followed very closely but not entirely interchangeably by NYU, UPenn
Rest of T14

DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

In none of these jurisdictions would Chicago be perceived as more desirable than HLS, but in DC, I think Chicago has edged out the rest of the T14. Maybe in the Chicago market itself UChicago is punching above HLS, I honestly have no idea.

*To the extent the commercial magazine rankings are inconsistent with this, IME, they are not representative of the actual perception of law schools.

Kind of impossible to have the knowledge to rank in this manner, but hey, that’s what speculative threads are for:

No way Yale is viewed by NYC firms as the top. Too many firm lawyers express disappointment with Yale graduates, especially on the corporate side.

2022/21 DC employment stats raw numbers:

Stanford: 21
Chicago: not enough to list on ABA reports (somewhere under 25)
Yale: 46
UVA: 64
Harvard: 97
Georgetown: 273

Georgetown has an unfair advantage because so many graduates populate the DC firms and agencies and these people self replicate but the same phenomena happens with Yale SCOTUS appointees selecting Yale clerks and that’s just the way it is.

lol it's not an unfair advantage. that's literally the reason people go to Georgetown

It’s literally unfair because hiring attorneys aren’t using USNWR rankings to make decisions.

haha good one

[Anonymous User]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:


DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

Egregious anti-Stanford trolling. SLS is easily the best for California, and on-par with YH for DC. Median gets DC lit regularly, something that you can’t really say about Chicago.

[urbancowboy]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:


DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

Sorry, Pal.

1. Chicago
2. Notre Dame
3. George Mason
4. Alabama
5. Liberty

Egregious anti-Stanford trolling. SLS is easily the best for California, and on-par with YH for DC. Median gets DC lit regularly, something that you can’t really say about Chicago.

[Anonymous User]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:


DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

Egregious anti-Stanford trolling. SLS is easily the best for California, and on-par with YH for DC. Median gets DC lit regularly, something that you can’t really say about Chicago.

Dang, it's almost like it's HYS or something

[Anonymous User]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:


DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

Egregious anti-Stanford trolling. SLS is easily the best for California, and on-par with YH for DC. Median gets DC lit regularly, something that you can’t really say about Chicago.

I'm speaking from years of experience in practice and in gov't, not just how 2Ls perform at OCI. I'll credit you that Stanford does just as well at OCI in DC since it has been some years since I was close to the data. Yale and Harvard have a more substantial DC presence and their alums populate key positions at firms and in government at higher rates. (To take just a few illustrative examples, consider the 62 HLS, 31 YLS, 17 CLS, 18 Chicago, and 10 SLS alums at W&C, or more extreme, the 7 YLS, 7 HLS, 1 SLS in Wilmer's Appellate and Supreme Court Lit shop.) Pointing to any one or two firms is obviously a flawed metric, but trends develop. DOJ Civil, L, and other agency GC offices are more difficult to check empirically, so I can only say that having worked in Gov't there is anecdotal evidence that YLS and HLS are much more heavily represented even weighting by school size. SLS students may be self-selecting out of all of these jobs--I'm sure these employers would all want more Stanford grads if they were qualified and interested--but over time, the sheer volume comes to speak for itself and influences the school's relative perception.

As for California, Stanford is indisputably at the top, but it shares that recognition with Harvard and Yale. I just don't have evidence of the most selective California employers showing a noticeable preference for Stanford specifically over Y/H when students/alums are otherwise equally qualified and can demonstrate the requisite California interest/ties. If anything, on the margins, attending a school within the state helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state, but that's sort of an extraneous consideration in my view.

[Anonymous User]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:


DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

Egregious anti-Stanford trolling. SLS is easily the best for California, and on-par with YH for DC. Median gets DC lit regularly, something that you can’t really say about Chicago.

I'm speaking from years of experience in practice and in gov't, not just how 2Ls perform at OCI. I'll credit you that Stanford does just as well at OCI in DC since it has been some years since I was close to the data. Yale and Harvard have a more substantial DC presence and their alums populate key positions at firms and in government at higher rates. (To take just a few illustrative examples, consider the 62 HLS, 31 YLS, 17 CLS, 18 Chicago, and 10 SLS alums at W&C, or more extreme, the 7 YLS, 7 HLS, 1 SLS in Wilmer's Appellate and Supreme Court Lit shop.) Pointing to any one or two firms is obviously a flawed metric, but trends develop. DOJ Civil, L, and other agency GC offices are more difficult to check empirically, so I can only say that having worked in Gov't there is anecdotal evidence that YLS and HLS are much more heavily represented even weighting by school size. SLS students may be self-selecting out of all of these jobs--I'm sure these employers would all want more Stanford grads if they were qualified and interested--but over time, the sheer volume comes to speak for itself and influences the school's relative perception.

As for California, Stanford is indisputably at the top, but it shares that recognition with Harvard and Yale. I just don't have evidence of the most selective California employers showing a noticeable preference for Stanford specifically over Y/H when students/alums are otherwise equally qualified and can demonstrate the requisite California interest/ties. If anything, on the margins, attending a school within the state helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state, but that's sort of an extraneous consideration in my view.

People will now proceed to spent 3 days telling you that you don't know what you're talking about

[Anonymous User]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:


DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

Egregious anti-Stanford trolling. SLS is easily the best for California, and on-par with YH for DC. Median gets DC lit regularly, something that you can’t really say about Chicago.

I'm speaking from years of experience in practice and in gov't, not just how 2Ls perform at OCI. I'll credit you that Stanford does just as well at OCI in DC since it has been some years since I was close to the data. Yale and Harvard have a more substantial DC presence and their alums populate key positions at firms and in government at higher rates. (To take just a few illustrative examples, consider the 62 HLS, 31 YLS, 17 CLS, 18 Chicago, and 10 SLS alums at W&C, or more extreme, the 7 YLS, 7 HLS, 1 SLS in Wilmer's Appellate and Supreme Court Lit shop.) Pointing to any one or two firms is obviously a flawed metric, but trends develop. DOJ Civil, L, and other agency GC offices are more difficult to check empirically, so I can only say that having worked in Gov't there is anecdotal evidence that YLS and HLS are much more heavily represented even weighting by school size. SLS students may be self-selecting out of all of these jobs--I'm sure these employers would all want more Stanford grads if they were qualified and interested--but over time, the sheer volume comes to speak for itself and influences the school's relative perception.

As for California, Stanford is indisputably at the top, but it shares that recognition with Harvard and Yale. I just don't have evidence of the most selective California employers showing a noticeable preference for Stanford specifically over Y/H when students/alums are otherwise equally qualified and can demonstrate the requisite California interest/ties. If anything, on the margins, attending a school within the state helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state, but that's sort of an extraneous consideration in my view.

If we're looking at just firms, note that in their first year out, at harvard 60% of people go into biglaw whereas only 37% from sls do.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

so you need to adjust for more than just student body size, but also what proportion even goes to law firms generally. so Harvard's firm pool is ~3*1.6 the size of what the comparable pool is at stanford. Only after that do we look at things like location self-selection

[Anonymous User]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:


DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

Egregious anti-Stanford trolling. SLS is easily the best for California, and on-par with YH for DC. Median gets DC lit regularly, something that you can’t really say about Chicago.

I'm speaking from years of experience in practice and in gov't, not just how 2Ls perform at OCI. I'll credit you that Stanford does just as well at OCI in DC since it has been some years since I was close to the data. Yale and Harvard have a more substantial DC presence and their alums populate key positions at firms and in government at higher rates. (To take just a few illustrative examples, consider the 62 HLS, 31 YLS, 17 CLS, 18 Chicago, and 10 SLS alums at W&C, or more extreme, the 7 YLS, 7 HLS, 1 SLS in Wilmer's Appellate and Supreme Court Lit shop.) Pointing to any one or two firms is obviously a flawed metric, but trends develop. DOJ Civil, L, and other agency GC offices are more difficult to check empirically, so I can only say that having worked in Gov't there is anecdotal evidence that YLS and HLS are much more heavily represented even weighting by school size. SLS students may be self-selecting out of all of these jobs--I'm sure these employers would all want more Stanford grads if they were qualified and interested--but over time, the sheer volume comes to speak for itself and influences the school's relative perception.

As for California, Stanford is indisputably at the top, but it shares that recognition with Harvard and Yale. I just don't have evidence of the most selective California employers showing a noticeable preference for Stanford specifically over Y/H when students/alums are otherwise equally qualified and can demonstrate the requisite California interest/ties. If anything, on the margins, attending a school within the state helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state, but that's sort of an extraneous consideration in my view.

If we're looking at just firms, note that in their first year out, at harvard 60% of people go into biglaw whereas only 37% from sls do.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

so you need to adjust for more than just student body size, but also what proportion even goes to law firms generally. so Harvard's firm pool is ~3*1.6 the size of what the comparable pool is at stanford. Only after that do we look at things like location self-selection

Why do so many ppl go to law firms from HLS relative to Y/S?

[Anonymous User]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:


DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

Egregious anti-Stanford trolling. SLS is easily the best for California, and on-par with YH for DC. Median gets DC lit regularly, something that you can’t really say about Chicago.

I'm speaking from years of experience in practice and in gov't, not just how 2Ls perform at OCI. I'll credit you that Stanford does just as well at OCI in DC since it has been some years since I was close to the data. Yale and Harvard have a more substantial DC presence and their alums populate key positions at firms and in government at higher rates. (To take just a few illustrative examples, consider the 62 HLS, 31 YLS, 17 CLS, 18 Chicago, and 10 SLS alums at W&C, or more extreme, the 7 YLS, 7 HLS, 1 SLS in Wilmer's Appellate and Supreme Court Lit shop.) Pointing to any one or two firms is obviously a flawed metric, but trends develop. DOJ Civil, L, and other agency GC offices are more difficult to check empirically, so I can only say that having worked in Gov't there is anecdotal evidence that YLS and HLS are much more heavily represented even weighting by school size. SLS students may be self-selecting out of all of these jobs--I'm sure these employers would all want more Stanford grads if they were qualified and interested--but over time, the sheer volume comes to speak for itself and influences the school's relative perception.

As for California, Stanford is indisputably at the top, but it shares that recognition with Harvard and Yale. I just don't have evidence of the most selective California employers showing a noticeable preference for Stanford specifically over Y/H when students/alums are otherwise equally qualified and can demonstrate the requisite California interest/ties. If anything, on the margins, attending a school within the state helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state, but that's sort of an extraneous consideration in my view.

If we're looking at just firms, note that in their first year out, at harvard 60% of people go into biglaw whereas only 37% from sls do.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

so you need to adjust for more than just student body size, but also what proportion even goes to law firms generally. so Harvard's firm pool is ~3*1.6 the size of what the comparable pool is at stanford. Only after that do we look at things like location self-selection

Why do so many ppl go to law firms from HLS relative to Y/S?

Y&S both select for unique backgrounds/goals more than H does (this is why you often see people who get one of Y/S but not H, even when the reverse is much more likely), which means lots of atypical placements. You also have a higher initial clerkship rate and a clearer track into elite PI jobs, etc.

[Anonymous User]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:


DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

Egregious anti-Stanford trolling. SLS is easily the best for California, and on-par with YH for DC. Median gets DC lit regularly, something that you can’t really say about Chicago.

I'm speaking from years of experience in practice and in gov't, not just how 2Ls perform at OCI. I'll credit you that Stanford does just as well at OCI in DC since it has been some years since I was close to the data. Yale and Harvard have a more substantial DC presence and their alums populate key positions at firms and in government at higher rates. (To take just a few illustrative examples, consider the 62 HLS, 31 YLS, 17 CLS, 18 Chicago, and 10 SLS alums at W&C, or more extreme, the 7 YLS, 7 HLS, 1 SLS in Wilmer's Appellate and Supreme Court Lit shop.) Pointing to any one or two firms is obviously a flawed metric, but trends develop. DOJ Civil, L, and other agency GC offices are more difficult to check empirically, so I can only say that having worked in Gov't there is anecdotal evidence that YLS and HLS are much more heavily represented even weighting by school size. SLS students may be self-selecting out of all of these jobs--I'm sure these employers would all want more Stanford grads if they were qualified and interested--but over time, the sheer volume comes to speak for itself and influences the school's relative perception.

As for California, Stanford is indisputably at the top, but it shares that recognition with Harvard and Yale. I just don't have evidence of the most selective California employers showing a noticeable preference for Stanford specifically over Y/H when students/alums are otherwise equally qualified and can demonstrate the requisite California interest/ties. If anything, on the margins, attending a school within the state helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state, but that's sort of an extraneous consideration in my view.

If we're looking at just firms, note that in their first year out, at harvard 60% of people go into biglaw whereas only 37% from sls do.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

so you need to adjust for more than just student body size, but also what proportion even goes to law firms generally. so Harvard's firm pool is ~3*1.6 the size of what the comparable pool is at stanford. Only after that do we look at things like location self-selection

Why do so many ppl go to law firms from HLS relative to Y/S?

At HLS. The culture is more corporate. Relatively fewer people interested in clerking (myself included)

[Moneytrees]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Cravath is definitely not just another top tier firm. It's widely regarded as more prestigious than SullCrom, DPW, and STB. And it's strong in areas other than just M&A. I think the Vault point is reversed. It's not that Cravath benefits from its Vault ranking; its strengths and prestige are reflected in its ranking (both national and regional).

Found the Cravath associate

Yeah lol the people who are butthurt about preftige are always the ones trying to claim the preftige.

Cravath is cooler than everyone!

Why?

Because it is

But why?

Because it is and everyone knows that it is

But why?

SHUT UP AND LET ME ENJOY MY PREFTIGE WHILE I WORK HARDER THAN YOU FOR LESS MONEY, GOD DAMN IT!!!

*********

Cravath has been and will be very important for historical purposes. But in the modern era, they are a totally generic V10 with absolutely nothing specific that anyone can point to for why we should care about them. Not the best, the richest, the biggest, the market leader, or even uniquely managed anymore.

Wachtell is the only V10 that’s actually special, so if those people want to tell me how cool they are and that they’re better than me and my firm, go for it. Cravath not so much.

Oh, now I get it. You bristle at the idea that Cravath is better than your firm. Fwiw, I'm not at either Cravath or Wachtell, and I have zero skin in the game. But saying that Cravath is a generic V10 is laughable. The truth is, it's the best generalist firm out there because all firms (yes, including Wachtell) are doing the same work and have similar clients. But only Cravath and Wachtell have the reputations that they do, and only Cravath is strong in every relevant practice group (including litigation, where Wachtell is comparatively weak). Cravath will continue to top the rankings, and you will continue to seethe about it.

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/07/vault-1 ... rica-2023/

"Of course it was. Here’s what Travis Whitsitt, Vault’s law editor, had to say about Cravath’s placement in the latest rankings: “Cravath is the standard against which all other firms measure themselves, with the firm securely atop the Vault Law 100 year after year and also within the top 10 of multiple practice area rankings. Cravath moves, and other firms follow. The firm has established industry standards on hiring and compensation for years, and even when it isn’t the first to move, Cravath’s decision to join influences the market—as with this year’s compensation and special bonus announcements. After all, every associate is well aware of the meaning of the term ‘Cravath scale.'”

Cravath continues to remain the namesake for salaries because of its prestigious pull, with survey respondents referring to the firm as an “industry trend setter” and a “compensation leader.”"

Cravath 13th in PPP in the 2023 rankings....

[Anonymous User]

Why do so many ppl go to law firms from HLS relative to Y/S?

The people at HLS are different from the people at Yale and Stanford. HLS folks are more similar to Chicago and NYU in their backgrounds, profiles, and interests.

[Anonymous User]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Cravath is definitely not just another top tier firm. It's widely regarded as more prestigious than SullCrom, DPW, and STB. And it's strong in areas other than just M&A. I think the Vault point is reversed. It's not that Cravath benefits from its Vault ranking; its strengths and prestige are reflected in its ranking (both national and regional).

Found the Cravath associate

Yeah lol the people who are butthurt about preftige are always the ones trying to claim the preftige.

Cravath is cooler than everyone!

Why?

Because it is

But why?

Because it is and everyone knows that it is

But why?

SHUT UP AND LET ME ENJOY MY PREFTIGE WHILE I WORK HARDER THAN YOU FOR LESS MONEY, GOD DAMN IT!!!

*********

Cravath has been and will be very important for historical purposes. But in the modern era, they are a totally generic V10 with absolutely nothing specific that anyone can point to for why we should care about them. Not the best, the richest, the biggest, the market leader, or even uniquely managed anymore.

Wachtell is the only V10 that’s actually special, so if those people want to tell me how cool they are and that they’re better than me and my firm, go for it. Cravath not so much.

Oh, now I get it. You bristle at the idea that Cravath is better than your firm. Fwiw, I'm not at either Cravath or Wachtell, and I have zero skin in the game. But saying that Cravath is a generic V10 is laughable. The truth is, it's the best generalist firm out there because all firms (yes, including Wachtell) are doing the same work and have similar clients. But only Cravath and Wachtell have the reputations that they do, and only Cravath is strong in every relevant practice group (including litigation, where Wachtell is comparatively weak). Cravath will continue to top the rankings, and you will continue to seethe about it.

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/07/vault-1 ... rica-2023/

"Of course it was. Here’s what Travis Whitsitt, Vault’s law editor, had to say about Cravath’s placement in the latest rankings: “Cravath is the standard against which all other firms measure themselves, with the firm securely atop the Vault Law 100 year after year and also within the top 10 of multiple practice area rankings. Cravath moves, and other firms follow. The firm has established industry standards on hiring and compensation for years, and even when it isn’t the first to move, Cravath’s decision to join influences the market—as with this year’s compensation and special bonus announcements. After all, every associate is well aware of the meaning of the term ‘Cravath scale.'”

Cravath continues to remain the namesake for salaries because of its prestigious pull, with survey respondents referring to the firm as an “industry trend setter” and a “compensation leader.”"

Cravath 13th in PPP in the 2023 rankings....

And number 1 in average deal size, which matters far more

[Moneytrees]

Wow Vault has really deceived some law students into thinking Cravath is better than Wachtell. Crazy lol. Wachtell is in a league of its own for M&A work and pays its associates nearly twice as much as what other top NY firms pay. Cravath is just another top tier firm that's not really different in prestige from firms like S&C, DPW, and STB. If you consider the small additional bonus that other top firms give to associates that bill a lot (e.g. over 2500), you realize how much more Wachtell pays its associates.

I have no idea why Vault has been ranking Cravath above Wachtell over the last few years. I never gave Cravath more prestige scores than the rest of top tier firms when I was filling out the Vault surveys some years ago. I suspect lawyers from schools where Wachtell just doesn't hire simply don't know them so don't rate them high in the surveys.

Cravath is definitely not just another top tier firm. It's widely regarded as more prestigious than SullCrom, DPW, and STB. And it's strong in areas other than just M&A. I think the Vault point is reversed. It's not that Cravath benefits from its Vault ranking; its strengths and prestige are reflected in its ranking (both national and regional).

Found the Cravath associate

Yeah lol the people who are butthurt about preftige are always the ones trying to claim the preftige.

Cravath is cooler than everyone!

Why?

Because it is

But why?

Because it is and everyone knows that it is

But why?

SHUT UP AND LET ME ENJOY MY PREFTIGE WHILE I WORK HARDER THAN YOU FOR LESS MONEY, GOD DAMN IT!!!

*********

Cravath has been and will be very important for historical purposes. But in the modern era, they are a totally generic V10 with absolutely nothing specific that anyone can point to for why we should care about them. Not the best, the richest, the biggest, the market leader, or even uniquely managed anymore.

Wachtell is the only V10 that’s actually special, so if those people want to tell me how cool they are and that they’re better than me and my firm, go for it. Cravath not so much.

Oh, now I get it. You bristle at the idea that Cravath is better than your firm. Fwiw, I'm not at either Cravath or Wachtell, and I have zero skin in the game. But saying that Cravath is a generic V10 is laughable. The truth is, it's the best generalist firm out there because all firms (yes, including Wachtell) are doing the same work and have similar clients. But only Cravath and Wachtell have the reputations that they do, and only Cravath is strong in every relevant practice group (including litigation, where Wachtell is comparatively weak). Cravath will continue to top the rankings, and you will continue to seethe about it.

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/07/vault-1 ... rica-2023/

"Of course it was. Here’s what Travis Whitsitt, Vault’s law editor, had to say about Cravath’s placement in the latest rankings: “Cravath is the standard against which all other firms measure themselves, with the firm securely atop the Vault Law 100 year after year and also within the top 10 of multiple practice area rankings. Cravath moves, and other firms follow. The firm has established industry standards on hiring and compensation for years, and even when it isn’t the first to move, Cravath’s decision to join influences the market—as with this year’s compensation and special bonus announcements. After all, every associate is well aware of the meaning of the term ‘Cravath scale.'”

Cravath continues to remain the namesake for salaries because of its prestigious pull, with survey respondents referring to the firm as an “industry trend setter” and a “compensation leader.”"

Cravath 13th in PPP in the 2023 rankings....

And number 1 in average deal size, which matters far more

Are there any other obscure metrics Cravath associates could desperately cling to in an attempt to salvage the prestige of yore?

[CondescendingLiberal]

Cravath is definitely not just another top tier firm. It's widely regarded as more prestigious than SullCrom, DPW, and STB. And it's strong in areas other than just M&A. I think the Vault point is reversed. It's not that Cravath benefits from its Vault ranking; its strengths and prestige are reflected in its ranking (both national and regional).

Found the Cravath associate

Yeah lol the people who are butthurt about preftige are always the ones trying to claim the preftige.

Cravath is cooler than everyone!

Why?

Because it is

But why?

Because it is and everyone knows that it is

But why?

SHUT UP AND LET ME ENJOY MY PREFTIGE WHILE I WORK HARDER THAN YOU FOR LESS MONEY, GOD DAMN IT!!!

*********

Cravath has been and will be very important for historical purposes. But in the modern era, they are a totally generic V10 with absolutely nothing specific that anyone can point to for why we should care about them. Not the best, the richest, the biggest, the market leader, or even uniquely managed anymore.

Wachtell is the only V10 that’s actually special, so if those people want to tell me how cool they are and that they’re better than me and my firm, go for it. Cravath not so much.

Oh, now I get it. You bristle at the idea that Cravath is better than your firm. Fwiw, I'm not at either Cravath or Wachtell, and I have zero skin in the game. But saying that Cravath is a generic V10 is laughable. The truth is, it's the best generalist firm out there because all firms (yes, including Wachtell) are doing the same work and have similar clients. But only Cravath and Wachtell have the reputations that they do, and only Cravath is strong in every relevant practice group (including litigation, where Wachtell is comparatively weak). Cravath will continue to top the rankings, and you will continue to seethe about it.

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/07/vault-1 ... rica-2023/

"Of course it was. Here’s what Travis Whitsitt, Vault’s law editor, had to say about Cravath’s placement in the latest rankings: “Cravath is the standard against which all other firms measure themselves, with the firm securely atop the Vault Law 100 year after year and also within the top 10 of multiple practice area rankings. Cravath moves, and other firms follow. The firm has established industry standards on hiring and compensation for years, and even when it isn’t the first to move, Cravath’s decision to join influences the market—as with this year’s compensation and special bonus announcements. After all, every associate is well aware of the meaning of the term ‘Cravath scale.'”

Cravath continues to remain the namesake for salaries because of its prestigious pull, with survey respondents referring to the firm as an “industry trend setter” and a “compensation leader.”"

Cravath 13th in PPP in the 2023 rankings....

And number 1 in average deal size, which matters far more

Are there any other obscure metrics Cravath associates could desperately cling to in an attempt to salvage the prestige of yore?

Not an associate, just being intellectually honest

[Anonymous User]

Cravath is definitely not just another top tier firm. It's widely regarded as more prestigious than SullCrom, DPW, and STB. And it's strong in areas other than just M&A. I think the Vault point is reversed. It's not that Cravath benefits from its Vault ranking; its strengths and prestige are reflected in its ranking (both national and regional).

Found the Cravath associate

Yeah lol the people who are butthurt about preftige are always the ones trying to claim the preftige.

Cravath is cooler than everyone!

Why?

Because it is

But why?

Because it is and everyone knows that it is

But why?

SHUT UP AND LET ME ENJOY MY PREFTIGE WHILE I WORK HARDER THAN YOU FOR LESS MONEY, GOD DAMN IT!!!

*********

Cravath has been and will be very important for historical purposes. But in the modern era, they are a totally generic V10 with absolutely nothing specific that anyone can point to for why we should care about them. Not the best, the richest, the biggest, the market leader, or even uniquely managed anymore.

Wachtell is the only V10 that’s actually special, so if those people want to tell me how cool they are and that they’re better than me and my firm, go for it. Cravath not so much.

Oh, now I get it. You bristle at the idea that Cravath is better than your firm. Fwiw, I'm not at either Cravath or Wachtell, and I have zero skin in the game. But saying that Cravath is a generic V10 is laughable. The truth is, it's the best generalist firm out there because all firms (yes, including Wachtell) are doing the same work and have similar clients. But only Cravath and Wachtell have the reputations that they do, and only Cravath is strong in every relevant practice group (including litigation, where Wachtell is comparatively weak). Cravath will continue to top the rankings, and you will continue to seethe about it.

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/07/vault-1 ... rica-2023/

"Of course it was. Here’s what Travis Whitsitt, Vault’s law editor, had to say about Cravath’s placement in the latest rankings: “Cravath is the standard against which all other firms measure themselves, with the firm securely atop the Vault Law 100 year after year and also within the top 10 of multiple practice area rankings. Cravath moves, and other firms follow. The firm has established industry standards on hiring and compensation for years, and even when it isn’t the first to move, Cravath’s decision to join influences the market—as with this year’s compensation and special bonus announcements. After all, every associate is well aware of the meaning of the term ‘Cravath scale.'”

Cravath continues to remain the namesake for salaries because of its prestigious pull, with survey respondents referring to the firm as an “industry trend setter” and a “compensation leader.”"

Cravath 13th in PPP in the 2023 rankings....

And number 1 in average deal size, which matters far more

Are there any other obscure metrics Cravath associates could desperately cling to in an attempt to salvage the prestige of yore?

Alphabetically Cravath does way better than DPW, S&C, and STB. Hell it blows Wachtell and Williams & Connolly out of the water.

[laanngo]

As for California, Stanford is indisputably at the top, but it shares that recognition with Harvard and Yale. I just don't have evidence of the most selective California employers showing a noticeable preference for Stanford specifically over Y/H when students/alums are otherwise equally qualified and can demonstrate the requisite California interest/ties. If anything, on the margins, attending a school within the state helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state, but that's sort of an extraneous consideration in my view.

Not sure that's true when Stanford's on-campus housing insulates students from CA's ridiculous housing prices.

[nixy]

As for California, Stanford is indisputably at the top, but it shares that recognition with Harvard and Yale. I just don't have evidence of the most selective California employers showing a noticeable preference for Stanford specifically over Y/H when students/alums are otherwise equally qualified and can demonstrate the requisite California interest/ties. If anything, on the margins, attending a school within the state helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state, but that's sort of an extraneous consideration in my view.

Not sure that's true when Stanford's on-campus housing insulates students from CA's ridiculous housing prices.

Not sure what's true? That going to school in California helps demonstrate commitment to living in the state? I don't understand your point about on-campus housing - people aren't choosing Stanford because its housing is cheaper than the off-campus housing prices.

[Anonymous User]

Most likely people will think there's something wrong with the rankings because Chicago is higher ranked

This.

[Antetrust]

Alphabetically Cravath does way better than DPW, S&C, and STB. Hell it blows Wachtell and Williams & Connolly out of the water.

lol

[Anonymous User]

I revise my earlier anon statement. The people ITT arguing that Cravath is somehow comparable to Wachtell (and superior to or dissimilar from Davis Polk, S&C, ect.) suffer from a more extreme departure from reality than the people arguing that UChicago has somehow surpassed HLS as a law school. Both statements are bad, but the Cravath-worship is worse.

[existentialcrisis]

Really productive use of anon in this thread.