The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers Forum

[rayiner]

Ray what are you gonna do post clerkship.

Tyrannical Midlevel.

[bjsesq]

Ray what are you gonna do post clerkship.

Tyrannical Midlevel.

You should give out assignments while you are making poops so you can BOTH bill. 3 birds, 1 poops.

[IAFG]

Are exit options more secure in litigational or transactional?

What do you mean, secure? There is a huge variety of things people leave firms to do, from every practice area.

As far as availability, income, QOL, etc.

I think this question presumes you're still on a "track." Once you exit, you're off the track. First think about what it is you want to spend the bulk of your legal career doing and work backwards from there.

[achilles470]

Been following these threads closely, thanks for the causing this 0L to have daily existential crises.

FWIW, I'm a para at a tiny, but relatively prominent, Plaintiff's firm in NYC. The attorneys are all happy, friendly and go home to families at 6-6:30 every day with rare weekend work. We make good money too (associate salary ranges from 70-200k, plus bonus' for settled cases). Associates (and para's too) all have substantial work and responsibility. Charging contingency fees totally changes the business model and, I think, really benefits our relationships with our clients. Maybe my firm is odd, but definitely don't turn your nose up at Plaintiff firms if you're considering an escape from/alternative to Biglaw.

I want to drop my dilemma here but I may make a thread as well: I'm quite debt averse, but is it really worth it to take a half-ride at C or N over YLS? Would translate to around 70-80k in savings. What about a 3/4 ride at UVA? I don't have some incredible full-ride option and will have a little need-based help at Yale. Is the guaranteed YLS safety net worth it at that point? (Please say yes...)

[nouseforaname123]

Been following these threads closely, thanks for the causing this 0L to have daily existential crises.

FWIW, I'm a para at a tiny, but relatively prominent, Plaintiff's firm in NYC. The attorneys are all happy, friendly and go home to families at 6-6:30 every day with rare weekend work. We make good money too (associate salary ranges from 70-200k, plus bonus' for settled cases). Associates (and para's too) all have substantial work and responsibility. Charging contingency fees totally changes the business model and, I think, really benefits our relationships with our clients. Maybe my firm is odd, but definitely don't turn your nose up at Plaintiff firms if you're considering an escape from/alternative to Biglaw.

I want to drop my dilemma here but I may make a thread as well: I'm quite debt averse, but is it really worth it to take a half-ride at C or N over YLS? Would translate to around 70-80k in savings. What about a 3/4 ride at UVA? I don't have some incredible full-ride option and will have a little need-based help at Yale. Is the guaranteed YLS safety net worth it at that point? (Please say yes...)

Give us actual coa, debt and your goals.

[El Principe]

I think this question presumes you're still on a "track." Once you exit, you're off the track. First think about what it is you want to spend the bulk of your legal career doing and work backwards from there.

That's what I've been thinking about recently, however, I think information regarding lateral careers is relatively difficult to find. While there have been scores of AMAs about associates from just about every type of big law associate you can imagine, there aren't as many PD/ADA/AUSA/etc. threads, even less for in-house positions, and next to nothing for public interest (though I'll admit I've never actively searched for PI).

There's more than enough information here about firm work of all sizes for those willing to dig, but some of the alternative/lateral careers, in my opinion aren't clearly defined.

[achilles470]

Been following these threads closely, thanks for the causing this 0L to have daily existential crises.

FWIW, I'm a para at a tiny, but relatively prominent, Plaintiff's firm in NYC. The attorneys are all happy, friendly and go home to families at 6-6:30 every day with rare weekend work. We make good money too (associate salary ranges from 70-200k, plus bonus' for settled cases). Associates (and para's too) all have substantial work and responsibility. Charging contingency fees totally changes the business model and, I think, really benefits our relationships with our clients. Maybe my firm is odd, but definitely don't turn your nose up at Plaintiff firms if you're considering an escape from/alternative to Biglaw.

I want to drop my dilemma here but I may make a thread as well: I'm quite debt averse, but is it really worth it to take a half-ride at C or N over YLS? Would translate to around 70-80k in savings. What about a 3/4 ride at UVA? I don't have some incredible full-ride option and will have a little need-based help at Yale. Is the guaranteed YLS safety net worth it at that point? (Please say yes...)

Give us actual coa, debt and your goals.

I'll make a thread. Thanks.

[Lost_Dreams]

...What about any other crappy corporate job? If you're happy with a 9-5 that pays $60k, an average looking wife, and a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs of Cleveland, you wouldn't be applying to law school.

Do all of these options seem sub-optimal to you? If yes, then all I can say is blame your parents for not giving birth to you in France or Greece so you can work 3 hours a day while living off the State. If your employer requires more, you can always go on strike.

Yes, debt sucks. Going to a non-t5 for anything less than a full-ride is not a great idea IMO. But if you can get into a t5 school, you have every opportunity in the legal profession open to you. It's up to you to make it. Sure there will be ups and downs, but what career doesn't have ups and downs? If you don't succeed, look in the mirror- it's on you. You likely wouldn't be successful an any of these other professions either.

Honestly, OP, you sound like you don't want to work, period. I will tell you what sucks more than working a 'boring' corporate job: being un(der)employed, and especially so after having done grad school.

The kind of general mentality that OP seems to project here is the very reason a bit of professional work experience before heading to a grad school (whether that be law, MBA, masters, etc) would do any naive young individual much justice.

Just as a point of reference, I will tell you my story. I don't live in some crap city like Cleveland. I live in NYC. Coming out of college, I landed a job in IT Consulting as a business analyst, at Deloitte/ IBM/ Oracle type of a firm. My starting salary was 70k a year. And, I didn't even major in something technical. I was an Econ major.

Granted, my job was not always exciting or fun. But, it paid decently well, had decent hours, and got me pretty good set of technical skills that I could leverage later on. I worked at my first job (the same firm) for 3 and half years out of college.

Just recently, I landed a job as a data analytics analyst (hybrid role) at a large investment bank in NYC. I got a 30k/yr pay raise from my old job. Now I make low six figure salary, just under 4 years out of college. Now, this job just didn't fall on my lap while I was cruising. I worked pretty damn hard for it.

One thing I noticed is that there are too many people who don't have any 'skills' that employers need, who end up not getting any good job and resorting to thinking like you: "Hey, I don't want a boring corporate job anyway, so I will bail out of this and just go grad school and see how that works out". This kind of mentality is the VERY reason, I suspect, that many young people end up getting screwed over.

When I was working at my last job, I spent 2-3 hours everyday, on average, after work on learning Excel, SQL, Access, and C++. I knew that if I mastered these skills as my core set of craft, I would have my pick of jobs, combined with a tech consulting work experience from a legit company. After 2 years of hard-core training in those areas, I became really, really fucking good at data base mgmt skills, writing Excel macros, all sorts of crazy Excel formulas to match and model data sets, etc. And, after I gained these skills, I continuously looked for ways to actually use more of these skills on my job, day to day. I networked, talked to head hunters, and always blasted my resume to jobs that would sound more interesting or higher paying than the current position.

Anyway, that's how I broke into the position that I am now at. Mind you, I did not start out my career in some fancy I-bank or mgmt consulting firm like Mckinsey or Goldman. I worked a job that you may be describing as 'one of those boring corporate jobs'. Listen, you need to remember that you work a job to put a roof over your head and bring food to table, not to 'have fun' at work. You give any decent corporate job you can snag your best shot, and see how that pans out. You may or may not like it. And then, you can later decide whether to do a grad school or not, to switch your career later on.

I myself am planning on doing an MBA in near future. (in 2-3 years maybe) However, I know that I won't do an MBA unless I get into a top 10 program. (otherwise it's not worth it) Since I have a good paying job, what I have is a good fallback option. And, even if I find myself in that unfortunate situation where I can't find one of those top tier finance / strategy consulting jobs at an MBA program, I know that I can always go back to my pre-MBA job and still end up making decent money anyway, given my experience and skills in my functional area.

I know many, many others that are making very good money, without even having gone to a grad school, and (many times) without any type of a STEM degree from an elite school. For example, my boss at my last job makes 180k a year as the senior manager, and he studied finance and econ at University of Florida. Not exactly the most prestigious school that there is. And, he is only 31 years old. Believe me, there are quite many ways to make good money, as long as you work hard, try your best to get any quality experience, and possess skills that are valued by employers.

Where I am getting at is this: try to play the game safe, don't try to put all your eggs in one basket, and don't over-analyze shit thinking 'x,y,z job seems boring and isn't for me' way before you even got to sniff an ounce of air inside an office of any legit company.

[reasonable_man]

Rayiner - catch me up here - what am I angry about...

[achilles470]

...What about any other crappy corporate job? If you're happy with a 9-5 that pays $60k, an average looking wife, and a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs of Cleveland, you wouldn't be applying to law school.

Do all of these options seem sub-optimal to you? If yes, then all I can say is blame your parents for not giving birth to you in France or Greece so you can work 3 hours a day while living off the State. If your employer requires more, you can always go on strike.

Yes, debt sucks. Going to a non-t5 for anything less than a full-ride is not a great idea IMO. But if you can get into a t5 school, you have every opportunity in the legal profession open to you. It's up to you to make it. Sure there will be ups and downs, but what career doesn't have ups and downs? If you don't succeed, look in the mirror- it's on you. You likely wouldn't be successful an any of these other professions either.

Honestly, OP, you sound like you don't want to work, period. I will tell you what sucks more than working a 'boring' corporate job: being un(der)employed, and especially so after having done grad school.

The kind of general mentality that OP seems to project here is the very reason a bit of professional work experience before heading to a grad school (whether that be law, MBA, masters, etc) would do any naive young individual much justice.

Just as a point of reference, I will tell you my story. I don't live in some crap city like Cleveland. I live in NYC. Coming out of college, I landed a job in IT Consulting as a business analyst, at Deloitte/ IBM/ Oracle type of a firm. My starting salary was 70k a year. And, I didn't even major in something technical. I was an Econ major.

Granted, my job was not always exciting or fun. But, it paid decently well, had decent hours, and got me pretty good set of technical skills that I could leverage later on. I worked at my first job (the same firm) for 3 and half years out of college.

Just recently, I landed a job as a data analytics analyst (hybrid role) at a large investment bank in NYC. I got a 30k/yr pay raise from my old job. Now I make low six figure salary, just under 4 years out of college. Now, this job just didn't fall on my lap while I was cruising. I worked pretty damn hard for it.

One thing I noticed is that there are too many people who don't have any 'skills' that employers need, who end up not getting any good job and resorting to thinking like you: "Hey, I don't want a boring corporate job anyway, so I will bail out of this and just go grad school and see how that works out". This kind of mentality is the VERY reason, I suspect, that many young people end up getting screwed over.

When I was working at my last job, I spent 2-3 hours everyday, on average, after work on learning Excel, SQL, Access, and C++. I knew that if I mastered these skills as my core set of craft, I would have my pick of jobs, combined with a tech consulting work experience from a legit company. After 2 years of hard-core training in those areas, I became really, really fucking good at data base mgmt skills, writing Excel macros, all sorts of crazy Excel formulas to match and model data sets, etc. And, after I gained these skills, I continuously looked for ways to actually use more of these skills on my job, day to day. I networked, talked to head hunters, and always blasted my resume to jobs that would sound more interesting or higher paying than the current position.

Anyway, that's how I broke into the position that I am now at. Mind you, I did not start out my career in some fancy I-bank or mgmt consulting firm like Mckinsey or Goldman. I worked a job that you may be describing as 'one of those boring corporate jobs'. Listen, you need to remember that you work a job to put a roof over your head and bring food to table, not to 'have fun' at work. You give any decent corporate job you can snag your best shot, and see how that pans out. You may or may not like it. And then, you can later decide whether to do a grad school or not, to switch your career later on.

I myself am planning on doing an MBA in near future. (in 2-3 years maybe) However, I know that I won't do an MBA unless I get into a top 10 program. (otherwise it's not worth it) Since I have a good paying job, what I have is a good fallback option. And, even if I find myself in that unfortunate situation where I can't find one of those top tier finance / strategy consulting jobs at an MBA program, I know that I can always go back to my pre-MBA job and still end up making decent money anyway, given my experience and skills in my functional area.

I know many, many others that are making very good money, without even having gone to a grad school, and (many times) without any type of a STEM degree from an elite school. For example, my boss at my last job makes 180k a year as the senior manager, and he studied finance and econ at University of Florida. Not exactly the most prestigious school that there is. And, he is only 31 years old. Believe me, there are quite many ways to make good money, as long as you work hard, try your best to get any quality experience, and possess skills that are valued by employers.

Where I am getting at is this: try to play the game safe, don't try to put all your eggs in one basket, and don't over-analyze shit thinking 'x,y,z job seems boring and isn't for me' way before you even got to sniff an ounce of air inside an office of any legit company.

Respect.

[rayiner]

Rayiner - catch me up here - what am I angry about...

0L's accusing practicing attorneys of being soft/weak/naïve for pointing out to them that firms are a grind and are places full of sharp elbows.

[NYSprague]

Thanks for the responses to the OP and for this lively debate. I tried my hand at a little instigation and it seems to have worked.

So, for someone committing to attend Stanford next year, what advice is there to minimize the drudgery/misery that all you practicing attorneys are warning about? Is there a path you envisioned, within the law, that you think would have made you happy? Or at least not miserable?

I went to undergrad for free, so my parents have some savings to chip in. Throw in generous need based grants from the school and some scholarships earned for grad school while in undergrad, I'll graduate with around $60k in debt. Yes, I know I'm lucky and many would kill to be in my position.

Are there ANY firms in major markets that aren't sweatshops? How about Cooley or MOFO in SF, or W&C in DC?

So the OP is going to Stanford for $60,000, has parents helping him pay for school, but started this thread to just stir shit. What a douche.
After arguing about how practicing lawyers don't understand 0's, he now wants a list of sweatshops to avoid.

[star fox]

...What about any other crappy corporate job? If you're happy with a 9-5 that pays $60k, an average looking wife, and a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs of Cleveland, you wouldn't be applying to law school.

Do all of these options seem sub-optimal to you? If yes, then all I can say is blame your parents for not giving birth to you in France or Greece so you can work 3 hours a day while living off the State. If your employer requires more, you can always go on strike.

Yes, debt sucks. Going to a non-t5 for anything less than a full-ride is not a great idea IMO. But if you can get into a t5 school, you have every opportunity in the legal profession open to you. It's up to you to make it. Sure there will be ups and downs, but what career doesn't have ups and downs? If you don't succeed, look in the mirror- it's on you. You likely wouldn't be successful an any of these other professions either.

Honestly, OP, you sound like you don't want to work, period. I will tell you what sucks more than working a 'boring' corporate job: being un(der)employed, and especially so after having done grad school.

The kind of general mentality that OP seems to project here is the very reason a bit of professional work experience before heading to a grad school (whether that be law, MBA, masters, etc) would do any naive young individual much justice.

Just as a point of reference, I will tell you my story. I don't live in some crap city like Cleveland. I live in NYC. Coming out of college, I landed a job in IT Consulting as a business analyst, at Deloitte/ IBM/ Oracle type of a firm. My starting salary was 70k a year. And, I didn't even major in something technical. I was an Econ major.

Granted, my job was not always exciting or fun. But, it paid decently well, had decent hours, and got me pretty good set of technical skills that I could leverage later on. I worked at my first job (the same firm) for 3 and half years out of college.

Just recently, I landed a job as a data analytics analyst (hybrid role) at a large investment bank in NYC. I got a 30k/yr pay raise from my old job. Now I make low six figure salary, just under 4 years out of college. Now, this job just didn't fall on my lap while I was cruising. I worked pretty damn hard for it.

One thing I noticed is that there are too many people who don't have any 'skills' that employers need, who end up not getting any good job and resorting to thinking like you: "Hey, I don't want a boring corporate job anyway, so I will bail out of this and just go grad school and see how that works out". This kind of mentality is the VERY reason, I suspect, that many young people end up getting screwed over.

When I was working at my last job, I spent 2-3 hours everyday, on average, after work on learning Excel, SQL, Access, and C++. I knew that if I mastered these skills as my core set of craft, I would have my pick of jobs, combined with a tech consulting work experience from a legit company. After 2 years of hard-core training in those areas, I became really, really fucking good at data base mgmt skills, writing Excel macros, all sorts of crazy Excel formulas to match and model data sets, etc. And, after I gained these skills, I continuously looked for ways to actually use more of these skills on my job, day to day. I networked, talked to head hunters, and always blasted my resume to jobs that would sound more interesting or higher paying than the current position.

Anyway, that's how I broke into the position that I am now at. Mind you, I did not start out my career in some fancy I-bank or mgmt consulting firm like Mckinsey or Goldman. I worked a job that you may be describing as 'one of those boring corporate jobs'. Listen, you need to remember that you work a job to put a roof over your head and bring food to table, not to 'have fun' at work. You give any decent corporate job you can snag your best shot, and see how that pans out. You may or may not like it. And then, you can later decide whether to do a grad school or not, to switch your career later on.

I myself am planning on doing an MBA in near future. (in 2-3 years maybe) However, I know that I won't do an MBA unless I get into a top 10 program. (otherwise it's not worth it) Since I have a good paying job, what I have is a good fallback option. And, even if I find myself in that unfortunate situation where I can't find one of those top tier finance / strategy consulting jobs at an MBA program, I know that I can always go back to my pre-MBA job and still end up making decent money anyway, given my experience and skills in my functional area.

I know many, many others that are making very good money, without even having gone to a grad school, and (many times) without any type of a STEM degree from an elite school. For example, my boss at my last job makes 180k a year as the senior manager, and he studied finance and econ at University of Florida. Not exactly the most prestigious school that there is. And, he is only 31 years old. Believe me, there are quite many ways to make good money, as long as you work hard, try your best to get any quality experience, and possess skills that are valued by employers.

Where I am getting at is this: try to play the game safe, don't try to put all your eggs in one basket, and don't over-analyze shit thinking 'x,y,z job seems boring and isn't for me' way before you even got to sniff an ounce of air inside an office of any legit company.

I would love a boring 60 K out of college corporate job in a city that doesn't have New York COL. These are few and far between. It's a bit more difficult deciding when you're stuck at a dead end 40 K job so many prospective law school applicants end up at.

[buffalo_]

I would love a boring 60 K out of college corporate job in a city that doesn't have New York COL. These are few and far between. It's a bit more difficult deciding when you're stuck at a dead end 40 K job so many prospective law school applicants end up at.

This is false. You just have to find the right markets; mid-major cities (mostly in mid-west). Size wise think St. Louis on down.

It's not that the jobs are not there, they are. It's that you either a) don't have the skills + experience to get them or more likely b) companies in small cities like to hire people from those cities or with very strong ties to those cities.

[TelegramSam]

Is there really a difference between the jobs aren't there and they're there but you're not qualified for them?

[star fox]

I would love a boring 60 K out of college corporate job in a city that doesn't have New York COL. These are few and far between. It's a bit more difficult deciding when you're stuck at a dead end 40 K job so many prospective law school applicants end up at.

This is false. You just have to find the right markets; mid-major cities (mostly in mid-west). Size wise think St. Louis on down.

It's not that the jobs are not there, they are. It's that you either a) don't have the skills + experience to get them or more likely b) companies in small cities like to hire people from those cities or with very strong ties to those cities.

Well it's a for me. Haha. Maybe if I pass on the whole law school thing I can get some crash course in programming (although I'd probably hate that even more than doing lawyer things). There's definitely major underemployment in this country among recent college grads.

[NYSprague]

...What about any other crappy corporate job? If you're happy with a 9-5 that pays $60k, an average looking wife, and a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs of Cleveland, you wouldn't be applying to law school.

Do all of these options seem sub-optimal to you? If yes, then all I can say is blame your parents for not giving birth to you in France or Greece so you can work 3 hours a day while living off the State. If your employer requires more, you can always go on strike.

Yes, debt sucks. Going to a non-t5 for anything less than a full-ride is not a great idea IMO. But if you can get into a t5 school, you have every opportunity in the legal profession open to you. It's up to you to make it. Sure there will be ups and downs, but what career doesn't have ups and downs? If you don't succeed, look in the mirror- it's on you. You likely wouldn't be successful an any of these other professions either.

Honestly, OP, you sound like you don't want to work, period. I will tell you what sucks more than working a 'boring' corporate job: being un(der)employed, and especially so after having done grad school.

The kind of general mentality that OP seems to project here is the very reason a bit of professional work experience before heading to a grad school (whether that be law, MBA, masters, etc) would do any naive young individual much justice.

Just as a point of reference, I will tell you my story. I don't live in some crap city like Cleveland. I live in NYC. Coming out of college, I landed a job in IT Consulting as a business analyst, at Deloitte/ IBM/ Oracle type of a firm. My starting salary was 70k a year. And, I didn't even major in something technical. I was an Econ major.

Granted, my job was not always exciting or fun. But, it paid decently well, had decent hours, and got me pretty good set of technical skills that I could leverage later on. I worked at my first job (the same firm) for 3 and half years out of college.

Just recently, I landed a job as a data analytics analyst (hybrid role) at a large investment bank in NYC. I got a 30k/yr pay raise from my old job. Now I make low six figure salary, just under 4 years out of college. Now, this job just didn't fall on my lap while I was cruising. I worked pretty damn hard for it.

One thing I noticed is that there are too many people who don't have any 'skills' that employers need, who end up not getting any good job and resorting to thinking like you: "Hey, I don't want a boring corporate job anyway, so I will bail out of this and just go grad school and see how that works out". This kind of mentality is the VERY reason, I suspect, that many young people end up getting screwed over.

When I was working at my last job, I spent 2-3 hours everyday, on average, after work on learning Excel, SQL, Access, and C++. I knew that if I mastered these skills as my core set of craft, I would have my pick of jobs, combined with a tech consulting work experience from a legit company. After 2 years of hard-core training in those areas, I became really, really fucking good at data base mgmt skills, writing Excel macros, all sorts of crazy Excel formulas to match and model data sets, etc. And, after I gained these skills, I continuously looked for ways to actually use more of these skills on my job, day to day. I networked, talked to head hunters, and always blasted my resume to jobs that would sound more interesting or higher paying than the current position.

Anyway, that's how I broke into the position that I am now at. Mind you, I did not start out my career in some fancy I-bank or mgmt consulting firm like Mckinsey or Goldman. I worked a job that you may be describing as 'one of those boring corporate jobs'. Listen, you need to remember that you work a job to put a roof over your head and bring food to table, not to 'have fun' at work. You give any decent corporate job you can snag your best shot, and see how that pans out. You may or may not like it. And then, you can later decide whether to do a grad school or not, to switch your career later on.

I myself am planning on doing an MBA in near future. (in 2-3 years maybe) However, I know that I won't do an MBA unless I get into a top 10 program. (otherwise it's not worth it) Since I have a good paying job, what I have is a good fallback option. And, even if I find myself in that unfortunate situation where I can't find one of those top tier finance / strategy consulting jobs at an MBA program, I know that I can always go back to my pre-MBA job and still end up making decent money anyway, given my experience and skills in my functional area.

I know many, many others that are making very good money, without even having gone to a grad school, and (many times) without any type of a STEM degree from an elite school. For example, my boss at my last job makes 180k a year as the senior manager, and he studied finance and econ at University of Florida. Not exactly the most prestigious school that there is. And, he is only 31 years old. Believe me, there are quite many ways to make good money, as long as you work hard, try your best to get any quality experience, and possess skills that are valued by employers.

Where I am getting at is this: try to play the game safe, don't try to put all your eggs in one basket, and don't over-analyze shit thinking 'x,y,z job seems boring and isn't for me' way before you even got to sniff an ounce of air inside an office of any legit company.

I would love a boring 60 K out of college corporate job in a city that doesn't have New York COL. These are few and far between. It's a bit more difficult deciding when you're stuck at a dead end 40 K job so many prospective law school applicants end up at.

The OP was fabricated. OP is going to Stanford for $60,000 in debt. You should ignore his posts.

[buffalo_]

Is there really a difference between the jobs aren't there and they're there but you're not qualified for them?

If you work at a 40k job and build skills for a few years you will soon be qualified for a 60k job.

The main "qualification" barrier for a staggering number of jobs is years of experience. You don't get any years by going to graduate school. Hiring managers in many fields would rather hire someone with 5 years of practical experience than a master's degree. Besides you can usually tailor your experiences on your resume/cover letter to show that you have some of the specific experience a posting is looking for as long as it is somewhat in your field or if the prospective company is in your current companies industry. You can't tailor or fudge your years of experience. So that's usually the first thing to stop your resume from getting passed along.

[dabigchina]

...What about any other crappy corporate job? If you're happy with a 9-5 that pays $60k, an average looking wife, and a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs of Cleveland, you wouldn't be applying to law school.

Do all of these options seem sub-optimal to you? If yes, then all I can say is blame your parents for not giving birth to you in France or Greece so you can work 3 hours a day while living off the State. If your employer requires more, you can always go on strike.

Yes, debt sucks. Going to a non-t5 for anything less than a full-ride is not a great idea IMO. But if you can get into a t5 school, you have every opportunity in the legal profession open to you. It's up to you to make it. Sure there will be ups and downs, but what career doesn't have ups and downs? If you don't succeed, look in the mirror- it's on you. You likely wouldn't be successful an any of these other professions either.

Honestly, OP, you sound like you don't want to work, period. I will tell you what sucks more than working a 'boring' corporate job: being un(der)employed, and especially so after having done grad school.

The kind of general mentality that OP seems to project here is the very reason a bit of professional work experience before heading to a grad school (whether that be law, MBA, masters, etc) would do any naive young individual much justice.

Just as a point of reference, I will tell you my story. I don't live in some crap city like Cleveland. I live in NYC. Coming out of college, I landed a job in IT Consulting as a business analyst, at Deloitte/ IBM/ Oracle type of a firm. My starting salary was 70k a year. And, I didn't even major in something technical. I was an Econ major.

Granted, my job was not always exciting or fun. But, it paid decently well, had decent hours, and got me pretty good set of technical skills that I could leverage later on. I worked at my first job (the same firm) for 3 and half years out of college.

Just recently, I landed a job as a data analytics analyst (hybrid role) at a large investment bank in NYC. I got a 30k/yr pay raise from my old job. Now I make low six figure salary, just under 4 years out of college. Now, this job just didn't fall on my lap while I was cruising. I worked pretty damn hard for it.

One thing I noticed is that there are too many people who don't have any 'skills' that employers need, who end up not getting any good job and resorting to thinking like you: "Hey, I don't want a boring corporate job anyway, so I will bail out of this and just go grad school and see how that works out". This kind of mentality is the VERY reason, I suspect, that many young people end up getting screwed over.

When I was working at my last job, I spent 2-3 hours everyday, on average, after work on learning Excel, SQL, Access, and C++. I knew that if I mastered these skills as my core set of craft, I would have my pick of jobs, combined with a tech consulting work experience from a legit company. After 2 years of hard-core training in those areas, I became really, really fucking good at data base mgmt skills, writing Excel macros, all sorts of crazy Excel formulas to match and model data sets, etc. And, after I gained these skills, I continuously looked for ways to actually use more of these skills on my job, day to day. I networked, talked to head hunters, and always blasted my resume to jobs that would sound more interesting or higher paying than the current position.

Anyway, that's how I broke into the position that I am now at. Mind you, I did not start out my career in some fancy I-bank or mgmt consulting firm like Mckinsey or Goldman. I worked a job that you may be describing as 'one of those boring corporate jobs'. Listen, you need to remember that you work a job to put a roof over your head and bring food to table, not to 'have fun' at work. You give any decent corporate job you can snag your best shot, and see how that pans out. You may or may not like it. And then, you can later decide whether to do a grad school or not, to switch your career later on.

I myself am planning on doing an MBA in near future. (in 2-3 years maybe) However, I know that I won't do an MBA unless I get into a top 10 program. (otherwise it's not worth it) Since I have a good paying job, what I have is a good fallback option. And, even if I find myself in that unfortunate situation where I can't find one of those top tier finance / strategy consulting jobs at an MBA program, I know that I can always go back to my pre-MBA job and still end up making decent money anyway, given my experience and skills in my functional area.

I know many, many others that are making very good money, without even having gone to a grad school, and (many times) without any type of a STEM degree from an elite school. For example, my boss at my last job makes 180k a year as the senior manager, and he studied finance and econ at University of Florida. Not exactly the most prestigious school that there is. And, he is only 31 years old. Believe me, there are quite many ways to make good money, as long as you work hard, try your best to get any quality experience, and possess skills that are valued by employers.

Where I am getting at is this: try to play the game safe, don't try to put all your eggs in one basket, and don't over-analyze shit thinking 'x,y,z job seems boring and isn't for me' way before you even got to sniff an ounce of air inside an office of any legit company.

I know you think you're a self made man and all but let me burst your bubble. IT consulting at IBM and deloitte is an elite career. By no means is your job considered standard corporate fare. I don't think any of these kids would want to go to law school in your shoes either.

tl dr your post was time consuming to read but added 0 value.

[jbagelboy]

...What about any other crappy corporate job? If you're happy with a 9-5 that pays $60k, an average looking wife, and a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs of Cleveland, you wouldn't be applying to law school.

Do all of these options seem sub-optimal to you? If yes, then all I can say is blame your parents for not giving birth to you in France or Greece so you can work 3 hours a day while living off the State. If your employer requires more, you can always go on strike.

Yes, debt sucks. Going to a non-t5 for anything less than a full-ride is not a great idea IMO. But if you can get into a t5 school, you have every opportunity in the legal profession open to you. It's up to you to make it. Sure there will be ups and downs, but what career doesn't have ups and downs? If you don't succeed, look in the mirror- it's on you. You likely wouldn't be successful an any of these other professions either.

Honestly, OP, you sound like you don't want to work, period. I will tell you what sucks more than working a 'boring' corporate job: being un(der)employed, and especially so after having done grad school.

The kind of general mentality that OP seems to project here is the very reason a bit of professional work experience before heading to a grad school (whether that be law, MBA, masters, etc) would do any naive young individual much justice.

Just as a point of reference, I will tell you my story. I don't live in some crap city like Cleveland. I live in NYC. Coming out of college, I landed a job in IT Consulting as a business analyst, at Deloitte/ IBM/ Oracle type of a firm. My starting salary was 70k a year. And, I didn't even major in something technical. I was an Econ major.

Granted, my job was not always exciting or fun. But, it paid decently well, had decent hours, and got me pretty good set of technical skills that I could leverage later on. I worked at my first job (the same firm) for 3 and half years out of college.

Just recently, I landed a job as a data analytics analyst (hybrid role) at a large investment bank in NYC. I got a 30k/yr pay raise from my old job. Now I make low six figure salary, just under 4 years out of college. Now, this job just didn't fall on my lap while I was cruising. I worked pretty damn hard for it.

One thing I noticed is that there are too many people who don't have any 'skills' that employers need, who end up not getting any good job and resorting to thinking like you: "Hey, I don't want a boring corporate job anyway, so I will bail out of this and just go grad school and see how that works out". This kind of mentality is the VERY reason, I suspect, that many young people end up getting screwed over.

When I was working at my last job, I spent 2-3 hours everyday, on average, after work on learning Excel, SQL, Access, and C++. I knew that if I mastered these skills as my core set of craft, I would have my pick of jobs, combined with a tech consulting work experience from a legit company. After 2 years of hard-core training in those areas, I became really, really fucking good at data base mgmt skills, writing Excel macros, all sorts of crazy Excel formulas to match and model data sets, etc. And, after I gained these skills, I continuously looked for ways to actually use more of these skills on my job, day to day. I networked, talked to head hunters, and always blasted my resume to jobs that would sound more interesting or higher paying than the current position.

Anyway, that's how I broke into the position that I am now at. Mind you, I did not start out my career in some fancy I-bank or mgmt consulting firm like Mckinsey or Goldman. I worked a job that you may be describing as 'one of those boring corporate jobs'. Listen, you need to remember that you work a job to put a roof over your head and bring food to table, not to 'have fun' at work. You give any decent corporate job you can snag your best shot, and see how that pans out. You may or may not like it. And then, you can later decide whether to do a grad school or not, to switch your career later on.

I myself am planning on doing an MBA in near future. (in 2-3 years maybe) However, I know that I won't do an MBA unless I get into a top 10 program. (otherwise it's not worth it) Since I have a good paying job, what I have is a good fallback option. And, even if I find myself in that unfortunate situation where I can't find one of those top tier finance / strategy consulting jobs at an MBA program, I know that I can always go back to my pre-MBA job and still end up making decent money anyway, given my experience and skills in my functional area.

I know many, many others that are making very good money, without even having gone to a grad school, and (many times) without any type of a STEM degree from an elite school. For example, my boss at my last job makes 180k a year as the senior manager, and he studied finance and econ at University of Florida. Not exactly the most prestigious school that there is. And, he is only 31 years old. Believe me, there are quite many ways to make good money, as long as you work hard, try your best to get any quality experience, and possess skills that are valued by employers.

Where I am getting at is this: try to play the game safe, don't try to put all your eggs in one basket, and don't over-analyze shit thinking 'x,y,z job seems boring and isn't for me' way before you even got to sniff an ounce of air inside an office of any legit company.

I know you think you're a self made man and all but let me burst your bubble. IT consulting at IBM and deloitte is an elite career. By no means is your job considered standard corporate fare. I don't think any of these kids would want to go to law school in your shoes either.

tl dr your post was time consuming to read but added 0 value.

I agree the post was pretty pointless. and this entire thread is a false premise.

HOWEVER, Plenty of people go from IT consulting or management consulting to law school. IT consulting, even at Deloitte, has a pretty harsh ceiling. And the work honestly isn't that inspiring. And before "zomg law firm work is just tedious bullshit too", yes, true, but it's a wider variety of options ex ante than what the day to day experience feels like in IT, regardless of the merits of those sentiments. Some of us who left consulting for law school had good reason.

[Pulsar]

I don't live in some crap city . . . I live in NYC.

Help I am confused

[dabigchina]

I agree the post was pretty pointless. and this entire thread is a false premise.

HOWEVER, Plenty of people go from IT consulting or management consulting to law school. IT consulting, even at Deloitte, has a pretty harsh ceiling. And the work honestly isn't that inspiring. And before "zomg law firm work is just tedious bullshit too", yes, true, but it's a wider variety of options ex ante than what the day to day experience feels like in IT, regardless of the merits of those sentiments. Some of us who left consulting for law school had good reason.

I was under the impression T10 MBA-->F500/MBB/IBD was a more natural exit op for you guys on the consulting side.

[Lost_Dreams]

I know you think you're a self made man and all but let me burst your bubble. IT consulting at IBM and deloitte is an elite career. By no means is your job considered standard corporate fare. I don't think any of these kids would want to go to law school in your shoes either.

tl dr your post was time consuming to read but added 0 value.

Yes. I am a self-made man. I attended UG with 0 help from my parents. I had no connections whatsoever. I worked my balls off since graduating college and now make 130k a year at age 26, doing technical/ analytical work at a large institution. I consider that to be pretty good outcome.

The point of my post was this: do not fucking over-analyze shit about your future, career, etc. Just get a job and do the best you can, and then see where that takes you. Law school / MBA / etc will always be there in case you do decide it's necessary, down the road.

Many young people make the mistake of thinking only 'inside the box' regarding a career. Just like the OP, where he painted a very structured career path regarding a specific industry, such as "college -> IBD at top BB bank -> PE / HF -> greatness, etc". Many times, life doesn't work that way.

Many of senior directors at my last company started out their careers in the most random ways imaginable. One guy started out as a contractor (part-time) in a non-related field, worked his way up, got a better offer somewhere else, built skills, networked, got better jobs, etc etc. Heck, the senior vice president at my current firm started out as a salesman at a no-name boutique firm, and now he runs like 4 different divisions at my bank.

I repeat, you can't perfectly predict your career years down the road, and many times, your career doesn't seem to end up panning out exactly the way you plan for it at age 22, at least based on my observations of many higher-up folks at the companies I've worked at. Hence, no need to over analyze shit, and locking yourself with only x,y,z careers at age 23. Just go out there, get a fucking job, work your ass off, and see what happens after that. That's all.

[Lost_Dreams]

I agree the post was pretty pointless. and this entire thread is a false premise.

HOWEVER, Plenty of people go from IT consulting or management consulting to law school. IT consulting, even at Deloitte, has a pretty harsh ceiling. And the work honestly isn't that inspiring. And before "zomg law firm work is just tedious bullshit too", yes, true, but it's a wider variety of options ex ante than what the day to day experience feels like in IT, regardless of the merits of those sentiments. Some of us who left consulting for law school had good reason.

I used to think the same way regarding IT consulting. I actually really disliked IT consutling, since 1) I hated traveling every week to bumfuck places, 2) work was very specialized / many times not analytical at all, 3) you need to kiss lots of ass and be a stellar salesman to move towards management level.

I craved for work that was a bit more analytical - something that would enable me to play more with data set, work with Excel spreadsheet, build models, etc. Hence, I basically taught myself all the Excel, SQL, Access, Java, C++, etc skills on my own, networked, etc and broke into the data analytics position (this is very, very far away from an IT consulting position) that I am at now. From this experience, I really learned a lesson that: if you are not happy with your current job, it's not the end of the world. Just do the best you can at your job, and in your free time, develop the skills you need to break into the job you would desire, and network with people in your desired job/ field/ industry. I'd say that has a much better chance of getting you the type of job you want as opposed to just going to a grad school with very limited amount of work experience in any shape, form, or kind.

Lastly, you can make very good money in IT consulting, after senior manager level and up. I mean, the director level folks at my last gig were making 260k+, not counting any bonuses. And, almost none of these guys had any grad degree. However, from manager level and up, you really need to sell work and bring in clients to move up. Otherwise, your ceiling is probably manager level, which would cap you at 150-180k a year at most. However, I consider that to be the case in many other professions as well, including law. (In Biglaw, you need sales skills to make partner)

[daryldixon]

This is the worst thread ever. It is pointless to try to argue with fools. We have two types of people in this thread. Those that have gone to law school, taken out debt, and experienced the job market for themselves and those who have not. Honestly, unless you go through it yourself you are never going to believe everyone else. So I say go. Get into debt and let the job market and the law school curve beat the "special snowflake syndrome" out of you. That is what happened to me and I am much better off for it.