The fundamental problem with 0L's. Forum

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

To those who are talking about anxiety, depression, stress-induced substance abuse, etc., what is it about law school that inspires these behaviors that is distinct from college? Is it the debt? The curve? Are the type of people who stress in law school the same who stress in college, or does pretty much everybody stress (to an unhealthy degree) in law school? Any of you guys have full scholarships? Do/did you still stress out a lot?

[yossarian]

I thought applications were way down? Clearly some people are getting the message?

Yeah, but the number of law students in the entering class is down only marginally w/ last year's graduating class being the biggest ever. Schools just have less selectivity, so the over-saturation problem hasn't changed/won't change much over the next 3-5 years.

[spleenworship]

To those who are talking about anxiety, depression, stress-induced substance abuse, etc., what is it about law school that inspires these behaviors that is distinct from college? Is it the debt? The curve? Are the type of people who stress in law school the same who stress in college, or does pretty much everybody stress (to an unhealthy degree) in law school? Any of you guys have full scholarships? Do/did you still stress out a lot?

It's a combination of factors: strivers, the forced curve, the cold calls, the unbelievable competition to get a job, the need to get good grades to get the job or keep a scholarship, the randomness of the process, the enforced social isolation, the crushing debt... Etc etc etc. in the end it all combines to produce an experience that destroys your self confidence and feelings of worth. IMO, they do this on purpose or subconsciously perpetuate it to produce stunningly good critical thinkers who at the very same time lack the self confidence and willpower to fight their relegation to peons and servants of the elite.

[jbagelboy]

To those who are talking about anxiety, depression, stress-induced substance abuse, etc., what is it about law school that inspires these behaviors that is distinct from college? Is it the debt? The curve? Are the type of people who stress in law school the same who stress in college, or does pretty much everybody stress (to an unhealthy degree) in law school? Any of you guys have full scholarships? Do/did you still stress out a lot?

It's a combination of factors: strivers, the forced curve, the cold calls, the unbelievable competition to get a job, the need to get good grades to get the job or keep a scholarship, the randomness of the process, the enforced social isolation, the crushing debt... Etc etc etc. in the end it all combines to produce an experience that destroys your self confidence and feelings of worth. IMO, they do this on purpose or subconsciously perpetuate it to produce stunningly good critical thinkers who at the very same time lack the self confidence and willpower to fight their relegation to peons and servants of the elite.

Also for those of us who were professionals before going back to school, watching all your friends continue their careers and pull down more and more salaried income and the consumer perks that come with while you go deeper and deeper into debt is tough, especially when you still regularly feel busier and more stressed than them. Going from working with clients and feeling like you're making a contribution to the marketplace and/or public good to being cold called about bullshit was a little annoying but it's just part of the transition back into student mode.

Law school can also be particularly unforgiving of personal tragedy/circumstances. 1L especially is no place for relationship issues and drama. Just pray you don't have a close relative/parent become ill or die during the semester.. You can skip class, but come finals there's no float on that curve for hard times

Overall though, law school isn't that miserable for a lot of people other than certain parts of 1L; you can make it work for yourself and if you're the kind of person that genuinely likes school, you can be content. This thread was more about practicing at large firms than law school itself tho

[withoutapaddle]

Law apps are down 9.3% from last year

[spleenworship]

Law apps are down 9.3% from last year

Yeah. But that means that the special snowflake percentage of those attending is likely much higher.

[withoutapaddle]

Not going to lie the debt scares the shit out of me

I have an interview to be a security analyst at an investment firm. If I get that job I may postpone law school for another year to give myself the best opportunity to get into a T-14 + Vandy

[coldshoulder]

It takes a unique mix of intelligence and lack of intellectual curiosity to stick past that.

This is why the mormons do so damn well.

[First Offense]

To those who are talking about anxiety, depression, stress-induced substance abuse, etc., what is it about law school that inspires these behaviors that is distinct from college? Is it the debt? The curve? Are the type of people who stress in law school the same who stress in college, or does pretty much everybody stress (to an unhealthy degree) in law school? Any of you guys have full scholarships? Do/did you still stress out a lot?

It's a combination of factors: strivers, the forced curve, the cold calls, the unbelievable competition to get a job, the need to get good grades to get the job or keep a scholarship, the randomness of the process, the enforced social isolation, the crushing debt... Etc etc etc. in the end it all combines to produce an experience that destroys your self confidence and feelings of worth. IMO, they do this on purpose or subconsciously perpetuate it to produce stunningly good critical thinkers who at the very same time lack the self confidence and willpower to fight their relegation to peons and servants of the elite.

This is the most bleak fucking thing I've ever read. Law school is not that bad.

[withoutapaddle]

the enforced social isolation

Law students don't socialize?

[84651846190]

It takes a unique mix of intelligence and lack of intellectual curiosity to stick past that.

This is why the mormons do so damn well.

holy shit, i never thought about this, but it's so true

[froglee]

If an ongoing law school student tells a 0L not to go to law school, he is a hypocrite. Those 0L lemmings probably even fantasize that person is trying to stop more competitions for jobs, because after all, those 0L think they are going to crank it in law school.

If a jobless law school graduate tells a 0L not go to law school, he, of course, is just a bitter loser.

If a big law associate tells a 0L not go to law school, he is a hypocrite too.

[JustHawkin]

If an ongoing law school student tells a 0L not to go to law school, he is a hypocrite. Those 0L lemmings probably even fantasize that person is trying to stop more competitions for jobs, because after all, those 0L think they are going to crank it in law school.

If a jobless law school graduate tells a 0L not go to law school, he, of course, is just a bitter loser.

If a big law associate tells a 0L not go to law school, he is a hypocrite too.

Lol

[IAFG]

If an ongoing law school student tells a 0L not to go to law school, he is a hypocrite. Those 0L lemmings probably even fantasize that person is trying to stop more competitions for jobs, because after all, those 0L think they are going to crank it in law school.

If a jobless law school graduate tells a 0L not go to law school, he, of course, is just a bitter loser.

If a big law associate tells a 0L not go to law school, he is a hypocrite too.

tbf the biglaw associates aren't hypocrites, they're lazy, weak, spoiled K-JDs who don't understand true misery.

[spleenworship]

the enforced social isolation

Law students don't socialize?

It's not like when you had friends in undergrad. There's always a space between you because you are competing for the same jobs and same grades.

[spleenworship]

This is the most bleak fucking thing I've ever read. Law school is not that bad.

Give it time, 1L, give it time.

[yossarian]

the enforced social isolation

Law students don't socialize?

It's not like when you had friends in undergrad. There's always a space between you because you are competing for the same jobs and same grades.

Yeah. But those who've taken a couple years off have already dealt with the whole adult relationships aren't anything like high school/undergrad relationships. Is that distance in law school much different from the distance between a lot of coworkers?

[09042014]

the enforced social isolation

Law students don't socialize?

It's not like when you had friends in undergrad. There's always a space between you because you are competing for the same jobs and same grades.

Yeah. But those who've taken a couple years off have already dealt with the whole adult relationships aren't anything like high school/undergrad relationships. Is that distance in law school much different from the distance between a lot of coworkers?

There is usually less distance because coworkers work then go home. Law students tend to mill around school, socialize only together and live very close.

But if you can't handle being friends with someone who you are vaguely competing with? The problem is you.

Sure most law students suck. But plenty are really cool, interesting people. More than enough to have a nice social life with.

[yossarian]

There is usually less distance because coworkers work then go home. Law students tend to mill around school, socialize only together and live very close.

But if you can't handle being friends with someone who you are vaguely competing with? The problem is you.

Sure most law students suck. But plenty are really cool, interesting people. More than enough to have a nice social life with.

That aligns more to my expectations. Thanks for sharing.

[TheSpanishMain]

If an ongoing law school student tells a 0L not to go to law school, he is a hypocrite. Those 0L lemmings probably even fantasize that person is trying to stop more competitions for jobs, because after all, those 0L think they are going to crank it in law school.

If a jobless law school graduate tells a 0L not go to law school, he, of course, is just a bitter loser.

If a big law associate tells a 0L not go to law school, he is a hypocrite too.

To be fair though, if anyone counters a doom and gloom anecdote with one about someone who is reasonably happy in their job and is glad they went, they get accused of special snow flaking/cherry picking/etc.

[jk148706]

If an ongoing law school student tells a 0L not to go to law school, he is a hypocrite. Those 0L lemmings probably even fantasize that person is trying to stop more competitions for jobs, because after all, those 0L think they are going to crank it in law school.

If a jobless law school graduate tells a 0L not go to law school, he, of course, is just a bitter loser.

If a big law associate tells a 0L not go to law school, he is a hypocrite too.

To be fair though, if anyone counters a doom and gloom anecdote with one about someone who is reasonably happy in their job and is glad they went, they get accused of special snow flaking/cherry picking/etc.

Yep, definitely goes both ways

[IAFG]

If an ongoing law school student tells a 0L not to go to law school, he is a hypocrite. Those 0L lemmings probably even fantasize that person is trying to stop more competitions for jobs, because after all, those 0L think they are going to crank it in law school.

If a jobless law school graduate tells a 0L not go to law school, he, of course, is just a bitter loser.

If a big law associate tells a 0L not go to law school, he is a hypocrite too.

To be fair though, if anyone counters a doom and gloom anecdote with one about someone who is reasonably happy in their job and is glad they went, they get accused of special snow flaking/cherry picking/etc.

Okay but I actually am reasonably happy and would go again and still think people just don't really know what they're getting into.

[TheSpanishMain]

If an ongoing law school student tells a 0L not to go to law school, he is a hypocrite. Those 0L lemmings probably even fantasize that person is trying to stop more competitions for jobs, because after all, those 0L think they are going to crank it in law school.

If a jobless law school graduate tells a 0L not go to law school, he, of course, is just a bitter loser.

If a big law associate tells a 0L not go to law school, he is a hypocrite too.

To be fair though, if anyone counters a doom and gloom anecdote with one about someone who is reasonably happy in their job and is glad they went, they get accused of special snow flaking/cherry picking/etc.

Okay but I actually am reasonably happy and would go again and still think people just don't really know what they're getting into.

Totally legit point, I'm just not sure the hivemind generally pushes the same caveats with bad anecdotes as they do with good ones. It's sort of like:

"Hey, I went to a good school and I struck out at OCI and now I'm doing doc review in a condemned slaughterhouse, I would rather be blowing truckers for a living."

"Ha! You see that, 0Ls! Gaze upon this and weep!"

"Hey, I'm working at a small/mid-size regional firm. I like it and I'm pretty happy I went."

"This is an atypical one in a million outcome! 0Ls, pay no attention!"

Obviously I'm exaggerating a little, and I think reminding people that anecdotes are not trends is a good thing. I've sometimes seen people way too quick to credit atypically bad outcomes, though. At least, that's how it seems to my 0L mind.

I also get the whole "people don't know what they're getting into." Again, far point, and I think people can be more or less informed. Obviously, it's better to be more informed. But the standard can't be perfect, certain knowledge. You have to be open to a little ambiguity/roll of the dice. You probably won't really know whether you like being a lawyer or not until you've been practicing law for a while. When I joined the military, I didn't know for sure how it was going to turn out. I did a lot of research, of course, and I was pretty confident that I would be not miserable doing it for at least a few years, but that's about the limit of foreknowledge.

Anyway, I know you're not saying "No one should ever go", just thinking out loud.

[patogordo]

there are way more people yearning for trucker semen than people prattling away happily at a small firm and making enough to pay their loans. so those seem like reasonable responses to me.

[sd5289]

Sure most law students suck. But plenty are really cool, interesting people. More than enough to have a nice social life with.

This.

The nice thing about the former group is they tend to out themselves in class pretty quickly into 1L, which makes it a lot easier to avoid/ignore them.