Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[xJD2017x]

so over 52,000 grads vs about 35,000 that will be enrolling this fall. Things are starting to get a little better.

[Princetonlaw68]

I found Michigan's numbers:

(17+32+148+31)/399 = 57.1%

Link

7% of the class is "unemployed-seeking"

Over an eighth of the class is either unemployed-seeking, ST, or PT

I don't know if anyone's every mentioned this before, but is it possible that the reason Michigan's unemployment numbers are so high as compared to their big law + fed clerk numbers is partially due to the fact that even though people in the legal field understand that Michigan is a top school with a lot of prestige, unlike the rest of the T14s, the Michigan name doesn't sound as good to people hiring for jobs outside of the legal field? I feel that it's very possible that as far as getting good non-legal jobs goes, Michigan could be the worst of the T14s due to its relative lack of lay prestige. (Not that this should affect anyone's decision to go there, but just putting it out there.)

[jbagelboy]

To get a comprehensive glimpse of how many grads are truly struggling at the bottom, don't just use "unemployed - seeking." I would take all Solos, groups of friends who try to start firms (2-5 attorneys), unemployed seeking, unemployed not seeking (because thats basically just a discouraged worker, stupid label difference), "unknown", the PT workers, and some % of the additional degree seekers.

Something along the lines of how LST measures underemployment. The employed-seeking alone tells very little.

[03152016]

i love how the nyu apologists are quick to point out their positive biglaw stats when they're better but resort to their whole nyc-for-scocial-justice-warriors schtick when their numbers stink.

Yeah, NYU has terrible biglaw numbers this year...

Cornell better than all but Harvard, Columbia, Penn, Stanford and Chicago -- is this shocking or what? I mean I knew Cornell placed extremely well in NYC but dang even better than NYU!

The data doesn't support that assertion; the biglaw and clerkship numbers haven't been broken down geographically. Overall though, 63.5% of NYU grads landed in NY state, compared to 56.4% of Cornell grads. Re: the biglaw numbers, there is a gap in firm prestige; I don't know of V10/V100 stats, but the NJL250 stats show a sizable gap -- 54.93% of NYU grads to Cornell's 45.08%. And self-selection comes into play here -- NYU sent 11.55% of grads into PI work, compared to Cornell's 5.7%. Cornell's employment numbers are great, but that doesn't mean Cornell places better in NYC than NYU.

....and that's why you'll be paying sticker to attend NYU? Enjoy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
You'll do great in law school dude.

[Beercules]

Vandy up:

https://law.vanderbilt.edu/employers-cs ... ummary.pdf

I got 17+15+42+19/206 = 45%

Edit: looks like the link is broken, but it works if you download from here: https://law.vanderbilt.edu/aba-disclosures.php

[yost]

Vandy up:

https://law.vanderbilt.edu/employers-cs ... ummary.pdf

I got 17+15+42+19/206 = 45%

Edit: looks like the link is broken, but it works if you download from here: https://law.vanderbilt.edu/aba-disclosures.php

Wow. Solid.

[04102014]

To get a comprehensive glimpse of how many grads are truly struggling at the bottom, don't just use "unemployed - seeking." I would take all Solos, groups of friends who try to start firms (2-5 attorneys), unemployed seeking, unemployed not seeking (because thats basically just a discouraged worker, stupid label difference), "unknown", the PT workers, and some % of the additional degree seekers.

Something along the lines of how LST measures underemployment. The employed-seeking alone tells very little.

Agreed. I'm just using it as a rough measure. Kind of like a, "if 7% are unemployed-seeking, factoring in the other categories must make it even worse" type thing.

[AAJD2B]

i love how the nyu apologists are quick to point out their positive biglaw stats when they're better but resort to their whole nyc-for-scocial-justice-warriors schtick when their numbers stink.

Yeah, NYU has terrible biglaw numbers this year...

Cornell better than all but Harvard, Columbia, Penn, Stanford and Chicago -- is this shocking or what? I mean I knew Cornell placed extremely well in NYC but dang even better than NYU!

The data doesn't support that assertion; the biglaw and clerkship numbers haven't been broken down geographically. Overall though, 63.5% of NYU grads landed in NY state, compared to 56.4% of Cornell grads. Re: the biglaw numbers, there is a gap in firm prestige; I don't know of V10/V100 stats, but the NJL250 stats show a sizable gap -- 54.93% of NYU grads to Cornell's 45.08%. And self-selection comes into play here -- NYU sent 11.55% of grads into PI work, compared to Cornell's 5.7%. Cornell's employment numbers are great, but that doesn't mean Cornell places better in NYC than NYU.

....and that's why you'll be paying sticker to attend NYU? Enjoy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
You'll do great in law school dude.

Female, actually, and I know that I will...at considerably less the cost.

Enjoy that debt for the marginally better chance to slave at a law firm.

[AAJD2B]

Vandy up:

https://law.vanderbilt.edu/employers-cs ... ummary.pdf

I got 17+15+42+19/206 = 45%

Edit: looks like the link is broken, but it works if you download from here: https://law.vanderbilt.edu/aba-disclosures.php

Wow. Solid.

Really though? I loved the people I met at Vandy but they have no business costing as much as they do with such numbers.

Lots of doc review Vandy lawyers out here in NYC.

[lawschool22]

I've spoken to a couple of people at Gtown who claim that if you are median there and you want big law, you will probably get it. This could be due to the whole people at Gtown don't all want big law thing.

That could be the case, but that number is still scary to me given how much it would cost to go to gtown.

[banjo]

If you guys are actually interested in measuring "bad" outcomes, check out this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=181723. It would be cool if someone calculated this for the T20 or so. I have to go learn the laws.

[star fox]

Vandy up:

https://law.vanderbilt.edu/employers-cs ... ummary.pdf

I got 17+15+42+19/206 = 45%

Edit: looks like the link is broken, but it works if you download from here: https://law.vanderbilt.edu/aba-disclosures.php

Pretty good for a non T14 in the "new normal". Do these numbers seem right to recent Vandy grads/3Ls?

[star fox]

I found Michigan's numbers:

(17+32+148+31)/399 = 57.1%

Link

7% of the class is "unemployed-seeking"

Over an eighth of the class is either unemployed-seeking, ST, or PT

I don't know if anyone's every mentioned this before, but is it possible that the reason Michigan's unemployment numbers are so high as compared to their big law + fed clerk numbers is partially due to the fact that even though people in the legal field understand that Michigan is a top school with a lot of prestige, unlike the rest of the T14s, the Michigan name doesn't sound as good to people hiring for jobs outside of the legal field? I feel that it's very possible that as far as getting good non-legal jobs goes, Michigan could be the worst of the T14s due to its relative lack of lay prestige. (Not that this should affect anyone's decision to go there, but just putting it out there.)

At least in the Midwest, Michigan has lots of lay prestige. I think the much bigger issue is they don't have a home market now that Detroit is basically done. Look at how Duke places relative to Cornell for a similar situation.

[d cooper]

Vandy #14?

[yost]

Vandy up:

https://law.vanderbilt.edu/employers-cs ... ummary.pdf

I got 17+15+42+19/206 = 45%

Edit: looks like the link is broken, but it works if you download from here: https://law.vanderbilt.edu/aba-disclosures.php

Wow. Solid.

Really though? I loved the people I met at Vandy but they have no business costing as much as they do with such numbers.

Lots of doc review Vandy lawyers out here in NYC.

Solid for Vandy and for non-T14s in general. Almost matches GULC.

[BigZuck]

UT is still yet to post, but here's the page where they post it.

Tick Tock, Texas.

popcorn.gif

[04102014]

To get a comprehensive glimpse of how many grads are truly struggling at the bottom, don't just use "unemployed - seeking." I would take all Solos, groups of friends who try to start firms (2-5 attorneys), unemployed seeking, unemployed not seeking (because thats basically just a discouraged worker, stupid label difference), "unknown", the PT workers, and some % of the additional degree seekers.

Something along the lines of how LST measures underemployment. The employed-seeking alone tells very little.

Agreed. I'm just using it as a rough measure. Kind of like a, "if 7% are unemployed-seeking, factoring in the other categories must make it even worse" type thing.

Also, for those curious, with the factors above, it's closer to 12% for Michigan, v. like 3.5% for Penn.

[ZGr88n]

To get a comprehensive glimpse of how many grads are truly struggling at the bottom, don't just use "unemployed - seeking." I would take all Solos, groups of friends who try to start firms (2-5 attorneys), unemployed seeking, unemployed not seeking (because thats basically just a discouraged worker, stupid label difference), "unknown", the PT workers, and some % of the additional degree seekers.

Something along the lines of how LST measures underemployment. The employed-seeking alone tells very little.

Agreed. I'm just using it as a rough measure. Kind of like a, "if 7% are unemployed-seeking, factoring in the other categories must make it even worse" type thing.

Also, for those curious, with the factors above, it's closer to 12% for Michigan, v. like 3.5% for Penn.

Lack of a home market + a class size of 399 = this outcome.

[03152016]

Female, actually, and I know that I will...at considerably less the cost.

Enjoy that debt for the marginally better chance to slave at a law firm.

First, I haven't gotten any financial aid info yet, so your premise is false. Second, the poster I was responding to was misinterpreting data about Cornell. I made a fair argument about why Cornell does not beat NYU in placement. For some reason (I have an inkling as to why) you decide to go into my post history and use my legitimate concerns about going into debt to attack my argument and belittle me.

So not only is your argument a bad one, but you're also a shitty person.

[cotiger]

To get a comprehensive glimpse of how many grads are truly struggling at the bottom, don't just use "unemployed - seeking." I would take all Solos, groups of friends who try to start firms (2-5 attorneys), unemployed seeking, unemployed not seeking (because thats basically just a discouraged worker, stupid label difference), "unknown", the PT workers, and some % of the additional degree seekers.

Something along the lines of how LST measures underemployment. The employed-seeking alone tells very little.

LST underemployment only includes unemployed-seeking, seeking another degree, solos, ST, and PT.

The ABA puts all this data in a giant sheet that you guys can download off their website if you're interested in making personalized "underemployment" scores.

[BigZuck]

T14 - G/M = T12 + V(andy) = new T13

Like duh, obviously. End thread.

[d cooper]

Female, actually, and I know that I will...at considerably less the cost.

Enjoy that debt for the marginally better chance to slave at a law firm.

First, I haven't gotten any financial aid info yet, so your premise is false. Second, the poster I was responding to was misinterpreting data about Cornell. I made a fair argument about why Cornell does not beat NYU in placement. For some reason (I have an inkling as to why) you decide to go into my post history and use my legitimate concerns about going into debt to attack my argument and belittle me.

So not only is your argument a bad one, but you're also a shitty person.

Just slowly back away.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I need to correct a mistake. The employment data this year will be for 9 months after graduation, not 10 months after graduation. I've said erroneously that the change to 10 months will happen this year. It is next year. Sorry about the mixed signals.

Few opines..

Should LST stop counting school funded in LTFT? If not, shouldn't you at least show which schools are gaming LTFT by recording so many school funded peps in this category? Maybe change school funded and include a breakdown, or just flat out remove all school funded from the employment score as suggested above.

Is there anyway to distinguish between state and local clerkships? Having state Supreme Court and traffic court in the same category is very meh, no?

Also what is "other clerkships?" I never see schools report them..

[star fox]

It would be great if they ever did 5, 10, and 20 year studies. It would obviously require full salary disclosure since things like small firms, solos, and non practicing business jobs will vary widely as far as desirable employment goes.

[MissouriMisery]

So for T14 just waiting on Berkeley and UVA?