New US News Rankings 2023-2024 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Didn't go to Chicago but my outsider opinion is that Chicago's rise can be attributed to the rise of fed soc/conservative judiciary and Will Baude's rise as the most prominent con law scholar of his age. If that reversed, harvard would once again overtake. Like if Will Baude took a job elsewhere today I wouldn't be surprised if Chicago dropped back down to Columbia level. But if Chicago attracts more professors who feed into clerkships, it will stay on Harvard's level or surpass it. Harvard is in a stable spot, Chicago's place as harvard's peer is relatively precarious.

HLS has been Cravathesque coasting on accumulated prestige for a while now. There's really nothing concrete in the last decade or two that you can point to it being a rung above CLS, NYU, Penn, UVA etc. I don't see any reason to assume it'll go back up to steady top 3.

Agree that Chicago is helped by fedsoc clerkships but important to recognize that Chicago is only "conservative" relative to other law schools. The avg kid at Chicago is not a Young Republican, she's probably a Biden voter who is pro choice. The difference is that Chicago is willing to engage and actively place with conservative judges. Meanwhile the other historical clerkship schools are busy throwing tantrums.

HLS is top 3 in the only place where it matters: perception by people in the legal profession. Also fun fact, people routinely got appellate clerkships at median. Show me the CLS and NYU students who can say the same.

[Anonymous User]

Are employers suddenly going to change their views on these schools overnight after looking at the new rankings? Of course not. But employer perception of these schools can and does change over time, and I think it would be hard to argue that the rankings don't play some role in that, at least when they begin to rank a school consistently higher or lower over several years. See e.g. Michigan Law.

[Anonymous User]

Most likely people will think there's something wrong with the rankings because Chicago is higher ranked

[Anonymous User]

Didn't go to Chicago but my outsider opinion is that Chicago's rise can be attributed to the rise of fed soc/conservative judiciary and Will Baude's rise as the most prominent con law scholar of his age. If that reversed, harvard would once again overtake. Like if Will Baude took a job elsewhere today I wouldn't be surprised if Chicago dropped back down to Columbia level. But if Chicago attracts more professors who feed into clerkships, it will stay on Harvard's level or surpass it. Harvard is in a stable spot, Chicago's place as harvard's peer is relatively precarious.

HLS has been Cravathesque coasting on accumulated prestige for a while now. There's really nothing concrete in the last decade or two that you can point to it being a rung above CLS, NYU, Penn, UVA etc. I don't see any reason to assume it'll go back up to steady top 3.

Agree that Chicago is helped by fedsoc clerkships but important to recognize that Chicago is only "conservative" relative to other law schools. The avg kid at Chicago is not a Young Republican, she's probably a Biden voter who is pro choice. The difference is that Chicago is willing to engage and actively place with conservative judges. Meanwhile the other historical clerkship schools are busy throwing tantrums.

HLS is top 3 in the only place where it matters: perception by people in the legal profession. Also fun fact, people routinely got appellate clerkships at median. Show me the CLS and NYU students who can say the same.

Perception by those outside the legal profession matters for lawyers too. This matters more for law than most other professions. Of course, Harvard benefits from this tremendously because the Harvard brand is held in even higher regard by those outside the law.

[Anonymous User]

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

If I had to guess, more probably choose Harvard over Chicago then the reverse, but it is simply not true to insinuate that there are not a sizable amount of people choosing Chicago over Harvard with equal costs of attendance. A lot of right-leaning fed soc people absolutely prefer Chicago over Harvard and pick accordingly. In a way, it is similar to Chicago's undergrad where there are a lot of really smart students who have their pick of other schools but are absolutely drawn to Chicago for reasons like the life of the mind, free speech, fed soc, etc... I view NYU and CLS similarly. More people given the choice probably pick CLS over NYU, but NYU's culture attracts a certain type of person that absolutely prefers NYU over CLS for reasons unique to NYU and its culture. I think NYU and CLS are peer schools and I also think Harvard and Chicago are peer schools.

Really? You think a sizeable number would choose Chicago over Harvard for the same cost of attendance? NYU and Columbia have always been peers, but Harvard and Chicago? Wow. Maybe times have really changed.

Anon you're immediately replying to. Yes, and I understand this was not always the case. I readily admit 10 years ago HLS was clearly above UChicago, but I think that is no longer the case. Just like Cravath was clearly above DPW and S&C but now I know tons of people who choose DPW or S&C over Cravath and no one things they're crazy.

Ok. Cravath was never clearly above DPW or S&C for as long as I remember. Well, from hiring standpoint, I don't care about the changes in the latest rankings unless they stay that way for some years. It's still YHS and the rest of t14 in the minds of most midlevels, seniors, and partners.

The Harvard being a fake top 3 school talk has been around for a long time. No one thinks HLS is on par with YLS and SLS except HLS students themselves.

[Anonymous User]

Are employers suddenly going to change their views on these schools overnight after looking at the new rankings? Of course not. But employer perception of these schools can and does change over time, and I think it would be hard to argue that the rankings don't play some role in that, at least when they begin to rank a school consistently higher or lower over several years. See e.g. Michigan Law.

I seriously doubt anyone in the position of making real hiring decisions (not fake decisions made by associates) would ever trust the judgement of a defunct magazine over a decade or more of first hand experience in working with a variety of graduates.

A law student might make hiring decisions based on whatever random formula USNWR is using to attempt to approximate lay and inside prestige, but you’d have to be a silly person if you couldn’t make these type of determinations on your own after a decade plus in the practice.

[Anonymous User]

If Chicago continues to crush everyone else in clerkships then yes, within a few years it'll be the school of choice for the elite. Forget HLS, why pick Y/S and potentially limit yourself to only half of the judiciary?

Conservatives interested in elite litigation outcomes should take Chicago over every school besides YLS. Fed-Soc at YLS basically guarantees you a semi-feeder and grades hardly exist there. Conservative judges are not going to stop hiring from YLS.

YLS is not feeding a third of the class anymore. Chicago has been the leader for the last two years of available data. I'm sure some conservative judges are still taking Yalies but it's clearly on the downswing.

YLS FedSoc Class of 2021 has 8 SCOTUS clerks per David Lat (more than 50% of the FedSoc students that year). Every FedSoc student who wanted to clerk wound up with a feeder or semi-feeder. No other school comes close to that.

[Anonymous User]

After reading this thread, I conclude the internet was a mistake.

[SGTslaughter]

And this from Don King:

"This fight is so big it will be like Hanni-ball crossing the Alps in the Dad o Winter"

This is the content we all tune in for

If we're talking Don King on a law board, we also have to note that Don King getting his house bombed during his time as a gangster played a critical role in the factual background of Mapp v. Ohio, the Supreme Court case that applied the exclusionary rule to the states.

Someone tried to kill Don King by bombing his home. Police were investigating the attempt at King's life when they searched Dollree Mapp's house looking for evidence. Mapp had nothing to do with it, but she pitched a fit about them not having a warrant. They pretended to have one and searched her home anyway, finding some obscene materials. They basically threw the book at her over this and she was sent to jail for a very long sentence considering the crime. Despite not having a warrant, any evidence collected could be used against her because that's how things worked back then. The case was appealed to the Supreme Court, they thought it was bullshit, and the rest is history.

Oh yeah BTW, fuck Don King.

SGT, I'm glad you added that about Don King since it may have saved me from a banning, may have. Embarrassed by my conduct even though I wasn't the guy who started the boxing references.

Don't be embarrassed, Don King posting is about 2938289394030394993x more interesting than the 828384928499393982929th jerkoff session on TLS about what school/firm is marginally more prestigious than some other totally fungible school/firm

[Anonymous User]

If Chicago continues to crush everyone else in clerkships then yes, within a few years it'll be the school of choice for the elite. Forget HLS, why pick Y/S and potentially limit yourself to only half of the judiciary?

Conservatives interested in elite litigation outcomes should take Chicago over every school besides YLS. Fed-Soc at YLS basically guarantees you a semi-feeder and grades hardly exist there. Conservative judges are not going to stop hiring from YLS.

YLS is not feeding a third of the class anymore. Chicago has been the leader for the last two years of available data. I'm sure some conservative judges are still taking Yalies but it's clearly on the downswing.

YLS FedSoc Class of 2021 has 8 SCOTUS clerks per David Lat (more than 50% of the FedSoc students that year). Every FedSoc student who wanted to clerk wound up with a feeder or semi-feeder. No other school comes close to that.

At YLS, and this is nonsense. Everyone gets an appellate clerkship, but by no means does everyone get a feeder or semi-feeder.

[Anonymous User]

Are employers suddenly going to change their views on these schools overnight after looking at the new rankings? Of course not. But employer perception of these schools can and does change over time, and I think it would be hard to argue that the rankings don't play some role in that, at least when they begin to rank a school consistently higher or lower over several years. See e.g. Michigan Law.

The employers that count (at that level) already decided. The rankings are just catching up.

[Anonymous User]

Are employers suddenly going to change their views on these schools overnight after looking at the new rankings? Of course not. But employer perception of these schools can and does change over time, and I think it would be hard to argue that the rankings don't play some role in that, at least when they begin to rank a school consistently higher or lower over several years. See e.g. Michigan Law.

The employers that count (at that level) already decided. The rankings are just catching up.

Total fake news

[Anonymous User]

If Chicago continues to crush everyone else in clerkships then yes, within a few years it'll be the school of choice for the elite. Forget HLS, why pick Y/S and potentially limit yourself to only half of the judiciary?

Conservatives interested in elite litigation outcomes should take Chicago over every school besides YLS. Fed-Soc at YLS basically guarantees you a semi-feeder and grades hardly exist there. Conservative judges are not going to stop hiring from YLS.

YLS is not feeding a third of the class anymore. Chicago has been the leader for the last two years of available data. I'm sure some conservative judges are still taking Yalies but it's clearly on the downswing.

YLS FedSoc Class of 2021 has 8 SCOTUS clerks per David Lat (more than 50% of the FedSoc students that year). Every FedSoc student who wanted to clerk wound up with a feeder or semi-feeder. No other school comes close to that.

At YLS, and this is nonsense. Everyone gets an appellate clerkship, but by no means does everyone get a feeder or semi-feeder.

What’s even considered a semi-feeder or feeder anymore? Is 2+ feeds a semi-feeder? Are you really a feeder if you only have one or two solo feeds? Just curious because I hear semi-feeder tossed around all the time anymore.

[Anonymous User]

If Chicago continues to crush everyone else in clerkships then yes, within a few years it'll be the school of choice for the elite. Forget HLS, why pick Y/S and potentially limit yourself to only half of the judiciary?

Conservatives interested in elite litigation outcomes should take Chicago over every school besides YLS. Fed-Soc at YLS basically guarantees you a semi-feeder and grades hardly exist there. Conservative judges are not going to stop hiring from YLS.

YLS is not feeding a third of the class anymore. Chicago has been the leader for the last two years of available data. I'm sure some conservative judges are still taking Yalies but it's clearly on the downswing.

YLS FedSoc Class of 2021 has 8 SCOTUS clerks per David Lat (more than 50% of the FedSoc students that year). Every FedSoc student who wanted to clerk wound up with a feeder or semi-feeder. No other school comes close to that.

At YLS, and this is nonsense. Everyone gets an appellate clerkship, but by no means does everyone get a feeder or semi-feeder.

What’s even considered a semi-feeder or feeder anymore? Is 2+ feeds a semi-feeder? Are you really a feeder if you only have one or two solo feeds? Just curious because I hear semi-feeder tossed around all the time anymore.

It's a flexible term, but me personally I would consider 2+ in like 5 years a semi-feeder. That of course cuts down on the semi-feeders. For some people semi-feeder means just having fed one person period, which imo speaks more to that one person then the judge. And then feeder for me is going to be basically always at least one a year and occasioanlly two or more.

[Anonymous User]

If Chicago continues to crush everyone else in clerkships then yes, within a few years it'll be the school of choice for the elite. Forget HLS, why pick Y/S and potentially limit yourself to only half of the judiciary?

Conservatives interested in elite litigation outcomes should take Chicago over every school besides YLS. Fed-Soc at YLS basically guarantees you a semi-feeder and grades hardly exist there. Conservative judges are not going to stop hiring from YLS.

YLS is not feeding a third of the class anymore. Chicago has been the leader for the last two years of available data. I'm sure some conservative judges are still taking Yalies but it's clearly on the downswing.

YLS FedSoc Class of 2021 has 8 SCOTUS clerks per David Lat (more than 50% of the FedSoc students that year). Every FedSoc student who wanted to clerk wound up with a feeder or semi-feeder. No other school comes close to that.

At YLS, and this is nonsense. Everyone gets an appellate clerkship, but by no means does everyone get a feeder or semi-feeder.

What part is nonsense? There are only 10 to 15 YLS FedSoc students every year. EIGHT of them from a single class are clerking for SCOTUS. Re the few that are not clerking for SCOTUS, their clerkships are with Jerry Smith, Stras, Rao, Walker--all of whom I'd consider at least semi-feeders. There is no group at any law school with a success rate anywhere close to Yale FedSoc.

[Anonymous User]

If Chicago continues to crush everyone else in clerkships then yes, within a few years it'll be the school of choice for the elite. Forget HLS, why pick Y/S and potentially limit yourself to only half of the judiciary?

Conservatives interested in elite litigation outcomes should take Chicago over every school besides YLS. Fed-Soc at YLS basically guarantees you a semi-feeder and grades hardly exist there. Conservative judges are not going to stop hiring from YLS.

YLS is not feeding a third of the class anymore. Chicago has been the leader for the last two years of available data. I'm sure some conservative judges are still taking Yalies but it's clearly on the downswing.

YLS FedSoc Class of 2021 has 8 SCOTUS clerks per David Lat (more than 50% of the FedSoc students that year). Every FedSoc student who wanted to clerk wound up with a feeder or semi-feeder. No other school comes close to that.

At YLS, and this is nonsense. Everyone gets an appellate clerkship, but by no means does everyone get a feeder or semi-feeder.

What part is nonsense? There are only 10 to 15 YLS FedSoc students every year. EIGHT of them from a single class are clerking for SCOTUS. Re the few that are not clerking for SCOTUS, their clerkships are with Jerry Smith, Stras, Rao, Walker--all of whom I'd consider at least semi-feeders. There is no group at any law school with a success rate anywhere close to Yale FedSoc.

There are more than 15 on the current board lol. And more in Fed Soc that aren't on the board. I repeat, not everyone who wanted to clerk wound up with a feeder or semi-feeder

[Anonymous User]

Are employers suddenly going to change their views on these schools overnight after looking at the new rankings? Of course not. But employer perception of these schools can and does change over time, and I think it would be hard to argue that the rankings don't play some role in that, at least when they begin to rank a school consistently higher or lower over several years. See e.g. Michigan Law.

The Michigan Law falling off thing is the literal perfect example of a TLS truism that doesn't exist at all in real life. Literally no one has ever thought that other than autists on TLS debating about the significance of a 3% difference in biglaw outcomes. The only T14 that arguably has a waning reputation is GULC.

[Sackboy]

Are employers suddenly going to change their views on these schools overnight after looking at the new rankings? Of course not. But employer perception of these schools can and does change over time, and I think it would be hard to argue that the rankings don't play some role in that, at least when they begin to rank a school consistently higher or lower over several years. See e.g. Michigan Law.

The Michigan Law falling off thing is the literal perfect example of a TLS truism that doesn't exist at all in real life. Literally no one has ever thought that other than autists on TLS debating about the significance of a 3% difference in biglaw outcomes. The only T14 that arguably has a waning reputation is GULC.

I think the poster is referring to when Michigan was a top 3 school, which was certainly a thing at one point in time, instead of just another "lower T14." Nobody right now thinks Michigan is terribly much better or worse than Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or UVA. As for GULC, you have no disagreement from me there. No clue how GULC rights their ship with their 9 million 1L class sizes and relative poverty in terms of university resources.

[Anonymous User]

If Chicago continues to crush everyone else in clerkships then yes, within a few years it'll be the school of choice for the elite. Forget HLS, why pick Y/S and potentially limit yourself to only half of the judiciary?

Conservatives interested in elite litigation outcomes should take Chicago over every school besides YLS. Fed-Soc at YLS basically guarantees you a semi-feeder and grades hardly exist there. Conservative judges are not going to stop hiring from YLS.

YLS is not feeding a third of the class anymore. Chicago has been the leader for the last two years of available data. I'm sure some conservative judges are still taking Yalies but it's clearly on the downswing.

YLS FedSoc Class of 2021 has 8 SCOTUS clerks per David Lat (more than 50% of the FedSoc students that year). Every FedSoc student who wanted to clerk wound up with a feeder or semi-feeder. No other school comes close to that.

At YLS, and this is nonsense. Everyone gets an appellate clerkship, but by no means does everyone get a feeder or semi-feeder.

What part is nonsense? There are only 10 to 15 YLS FedSoc students every year. EIGHT of them from a single class are clerking for SCOTUS. Re the few that are not clerking for SCOTUS, their clerkships are with Jerry Smith, Stras, Rao, Walker--all of whom I'd consider at least semi-feeders. There is no group at any law school with a success rate anywhere close to Yale FedSoc.

There are more than 15 on the current board lol. And more in Fed Soc that aren't on the board. I repeat, not everyone who wanted to clerk wound up with a feeder or semi-feeder

The board is a mix of 2Ls and 3Ls. There are only 10 to 15 active FedSoc members in each Yale class.

Regarding their clerkships, I can't speak to the classes of 2023 and 2024, which still can be hired for additional clerkships. The YLS FedSoc class of 2021 has 8 SCOTUS clerks with the remaining clerking for the feeders and semi-feeders described above. SCOTUS hiring for the class of 2022 hasn't begun in earnest yet, but their clerkships are with Thapar, Grant, Rao, Walker, Pryor, Newsom, Park, Menashi, Lagoa, Oldham, and O'Scannlain--almost all of whom have fed.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

If I had to guess, more probably choose Harvard over Chicago then the reverse, but it is simply not true to insinuate that there are not a sizable amount of people choosing Chicago over Harvard with equal costs of attendance. A lot of right-leaning fed soc people absolutely prefer Chicago over Harvard and pick accordingly. In a way, it is similar to Chicago's undergrad where there are a lot of really smart students who have their pick of other schools but are absolutely drawn to Chicago for reasons like the life of the mind, free speech, fed soc, etc... I view NYU and CLS similarly. More people given the choice probably pick CLS over NYU, but NYU's culture attracts a certain type of person that absolutely prefers NYU over CLS for reasons unique to NYU and its culture. I think NYU and CLS are peer schools and I also think Harvard and Chicago are peer schools.

Really? You think a sizeable number would choose Chicago over Harvard for the same cost of attendance? NYU and Columbia have always been peers, but Harvard and Chicago? Wow. Maybe times have really changed.

Anon you're immediately replying to. Yes, and I understand this was not always the case. I readily admit 10 years ago HLS was clearly above UChicago, but I think that is no longer the case. Just like Cravath was clearly above DPW and S&C but now I know tons of people who choose DPW or S&C over Cravath and no one things they're crazy.

Ok. Cravath was never clearly above DPW or S&C for as long as I remember. Well, from hiring standpoint, I don't care about the changes in the latest rankings unless they stay that way for some years. It's still YHS and the rest of t14 in the minds of most midlevels, seniors, and partners.

The Harvard being a fake top 3 school talk has been around for a long time. No one thinks HLS is on par with YLS and SLS except HLS students themselves.

And also industry professionals. And academic professionals... HLS had a higher peer reputation score and industry reputation score in the last several USNWR reports than Yale (and some years Stanford). (obviously, like vault rankings, these are not perfect metrics but its what we have). Yale has always been #1 in rankings not because it ranks better in peer reputation or industry reputation, but because it's expenditures per students are huge because of its small class size. Thats literally the only reason it has been number 1 for years over H.

But in any case it will make no difference to almost everyone whether you go to H or chicago..

[Anonymous User]

Yale has always been #1 in rankings not because it ranks better in peer reputation or industry reputation, but because it's expenditures per students are huge because of its small class size. Thats literally the only reason it has been number 1 for years over H.

But in any case it will make no difference to almost everyone whether you go to H or chicago..

and yet expenditures per student was removed from the equation in this new US news ranking but HLS went down relative to Yale

[Anonymous User]

Yale has always been #1 in rankings not because it ranks better in peer reputation or industry reputation, but because it's expenditures per students are huge because of its small class size. Thats literally the only reason it has been number 1 for years over H.

But in any case it will make no difference to almost everyone whether you go to H or chicago..

and yet expenditures per student was removed from the equation in this new US news ranking but HLS went down relative to Yale

Owned. LOLLLLL I find it so funny how persistent and creative the HLS students are in their desperate attempts to get in the conversation with Yale but all they get now is Chicago.

[Anonymous User]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:

New York:
Yale
Harvard/Stanford
Chicago/Columbia, followed very closely but not entirely interchangeably by NYU, UPenn
Rest of T14

DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

In none of these jurisdictions would Chicago be perceived as more desirable than HLS, but in DC, I think Chicago has edged out the rest of the T14. Maybe in the Chicago market itself UChicago is punching above HLS, I honestly have no idea.

*To the extent the commercial magazine rankings are inconsistent with this, IME, they are not representative of the actual perception of law schools.

[jamestaylorrecordsas]

And this from Don King:

"This fight is so big it will be like Hanni-ball crossing the Alps in the Dad o Winter"

This is the content we all tune in for

If we're talking Don King on a law board, we also have to note that Don King getting his house bombed during his time as a gangster played a critical role in the factual background of Mapp v. Ohio, the Supreme Court case that applied the exclusionary rule to the states.

Someone tried to kill Don King by bombing his home. Police were investigating the attempt at King's life when they searched Dollree Mapp's house looking for evidence. Mapp had nothing to do with it, but she pitched a fit about them not having a warrant. They pretended to have one and searched her home anyway, finding some obscene materials. They basically threw the book at her over this and she was sent to jail for a very long sentence considering the crime. Despite not having a warrant, any evidence collected could be used against her because that's how things worked back then. The case was appealed to the Supreme Court, they thought it was bullshit, and the rest is history.

Oh yeah BTW, fuck Don King.

SGT, I'm glad you added that about Don King since it may have saved me from a banning, may have. Embarrassed by my conduct even though I wasn't the guy who started the boxing references.

Don't be embarrassed, Don King posting is about 2938289394030394993x more interesting than the 828384928499393982929th jerkoff session on TLS about what school/firm is marginally more prestigious than some other totally fungible school/firm

completely agree yet nothing we can say will change it

only getting older will change their opinions

still can't get over Don King using the word "Jewishprudence"

[Anonymous User]

I'll bite. The distinctions between the top schools are miniscule, but playing along if I had to make a list and speaking with direct experience in three major markets across firms, judges, and government, this is my experience in how elite law schools are perceived:

New York:
Yale
Harvard/Stanford
Chicago/Columbia, followed very closely but not entirely interchangeably by NYU, UPenn
Rest of T14

DC
Yale/Harvard
Stanford/Chicago
UVA/Columbia
Rest of T14

California
YSH
CCN + Berkeley
Rest of T14

In none of these jurisdictions would Chicago be perceived as more desirable than HLS, but in DC, I think Chicago has edged out the rest of the T14. Maybe in the Chicago market itself UChicago is punching above HLS, I honestly have no idea.

*To the extent the commercial magazine rankings are inconsistent with this, IME, they are not representative of the actual perception of law schools.

Kind of impossible to have the knowledge to rank in this manner, but hey, that’s what speculative threads are for:

No way Yale is viewed by NYC firms as the top. Too many firm lawyers express disappointment with Yale graduates, especially on the corporate side.

2022/21 DC employment stats raw numbers:

Stanford: 21
Chicago: not enough to list on ABA reports (somewhere under 25)
Yale: 46
UVA: 64
Harvard: 97
Georgetown: 273

Georgetown has an unfair advantage because so many graduates populate the DC firms and agencies and these people self replicate but the same phenomena happens with Yale SCOTUS appointees selecting Yale clerks and that’s just the way it is.