The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers Forum

[El Pollito]

The #1 complaint I hear from my peers is about their inability to successfully date. I don't care if your dad and all 20 of your cousins are in biglaw. It's not compatible with a bustling social life.

Yeah, I used to wonder why so many people at work were fucking each other and now I understand.

[KatyMarie]

Welp.

[*]Big Law + debt = Miserable Tedious Job + Long, stressful hours + Job Insecurity + No Money + No Friends
[*]Big Law no debt = Miserable Tedious Job + Long, stressful hours + Job Insecurity + Some Money + No Friends
[*]Small Law = Miserable Tedious Job + Long, stressful hours + No Money + [Unclear on Friends/Job Insecurity situation here]
[*]Nothing in the middle exists.

Do any practicing lawyers have anything good to say about their jobs? I promise I won't run out go enroll in St. John's for sticker price if you give me an example of something you find enjoyable/rewarding about your career that you haven't found elsewhere.

Belatedly, and maybe inappropriately since this thread is almost all about biglaw, but I'm a government lawyer and I like my job a lot: reasonable hours, reasonable pay, reasonably interesting work. Probably the biggest difference, though, is that I run my own cases from start to finish [admittedly with lots and lots of help at this point], and the hierarchy is different. I'd say it's flatter - I have a supervisor, and then there's a division head above her, but obviously there aren't any partners (or aiming for partnership) and everyone in the office, unless they have a supervisory position, has the same title.

No, thanks for commenting on this with a different perspective! That all sounds really cool and it's helpful for me (and I suspect other 0Ls) to have an idea of what the good (as well as the bad of course) can look like along different career paths. It's easy to get focused on Big Law as a goal and to forget that there's other desirable outcomes as well.

[El Pollito]

didnt realize being a 0l precluded me from knowing people and having family members who work/have worked in big law

The attorneys at my firm at least pretend to have some personal relationships outside of work that they care about and actively cultivate...but they could all just be really good actors and they're actually dying inside.

My friends and I are pretty good about Sunday Fundays, but we're all in biglaw so things get cancelled pretty regularly.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I wish I'd worked harder and gotten even less debt.

So much this. I'd probably have ended up at the same school for personal reasons, and I got the job I wanted out of that school, and I don't even care too much about debt because I don't have kids so fuck it, but it would have been awesome to have this outcome with no or less debt.

[spleenworship]

I wish I'd worked harder and gotten even less debt.

So much this. I'd probably have ended up at the same school for personal reasons, and I got the job I wanted out of that school, and I don't even care too much about debt because I don't have kids so fuck it, but it would have been awesome to have this outcome with no or less debt.

Seriously. One retake and Id be below six figures probably.

[BigBlackTruck]

.

[buffalo_]

I wish I'd worked harder and gotten even less debt.

So much this. I'd probably have ended up at the same school for personal reasons, and I got the job I wanted out of that school, and I don't even care too much about debt because I don't have kids so fuck it, but it would have been awesome to have this outcome with no or less debt.

If you are govt, are you on PSLF? Debt free in 10 years no?

[Hipster but Athletic]

So what's the TLS opinion about the following dilemma (non-NYC):
75k starting @ 20 person firm working pretty regular hours or 135 at a prestigious grindhouse?

[rad lulz]

So what's the TLS opinion about the following dilemma (non-NYC):
75k starting @ 20 person firm working pretty regular hours or 135 at a prestigious grindhouse?

What does the 20 person firm do

[Hipster but Athletic]

does it matter that much so long as it's not like DUI?
let's say l&e lit

[09042014]

So what's the TLS opinion about the following dilemma (non-NYC):
75k starting @ 20 person firm working pretty regular hours or 135 at a prestigious grindhouse?

Debtload?

How do you know it's "pretty regular hours"

[Hipster but Athletic]

So what's the TLS opinion about the following dilemma (non-NYC):
75k starting @ 20 person firm working pretty regular hours or 135 at a prestigious grindhouse?

Debtload?

How do you know it's "pretty regular hours"

a)150k?
b)bc it's a hypo? (don't fuck with hypos, gunner)

[A. Nony Mouse]

I wish I'd worked harder and gotten even less debt.

So much this. I'd probably have ended up at the same school for personal reasons, and I got the job I wanted out of that school, and I don't even care too much about debt because I don't have kids so fuck it, but it would have been awesome to have this outcome with no or less debt.

If you are govt, are you on PSLF? Debt free in 10 years no?

That's the plan, but a lot of shit can go down in 10 years.

[spleenworship]

So what's the TLS opinion about the following dilemma (non-NYC):
75k starting @ 20 person firm working pretty regular hours or 135 at a prestigious grindhouse?

Debtload?

How do you know it's "pretty regular hours"

a)150k?
b)bc it's a hypo? (don't fuck with hypos, gunner)

I'd take the $75k but I'm also pretty lazy and like having a life outside of work. YMMV.

[Crowing]

Do you guys think biglaw is so bad that it's not worth going into even as a short-term launching pad into other areas? If you had no debt, what would you have done? My impression has been that in-house and government positions are not generally open to recent grads--what other starting paths would you advocate to get there?

I guess I've long been of the opinion that it's mostly the debt that really crushes people moreso than the job itself. Before LS, I worked 50-60+ hour weeks at a physically-demanding job. The work was busier around holidays. The schedule was unpredictable and I routinely got called into work at 4am the next morning after 10pm the night before. I was expected to always be on call and didn't even get provided a phone by the company. My company neither promoted based on competence nor seniority but based on incompetence (sounds ludicrous but literally was a running gag within the company). Oh and I made like $30k. I mean that whole experience sucked, but I never felt like it was really ruining my life, probably because I wasn't indebted. People without degrees got it hard, man.

[IAFG]

Do you guys think biglaw is so bad that it's not worth going into even as a short-term launching pad into other areas? If you had no debt, what would you have done? My impression has been that in-house and government positions are not generally open to recent grads--what other starting paths would you advocate to get there?

I guess I've long been of the opinion that it's mostly the debt that really crushes people moreso than the job itself. Before LS, I worked 50-60+ hour weeks at a physically-demanding job. The work was busier around holidays. The schedule was unpredictable and I routinely got called into work at 4am the next morning after 10pm the night before. I was expected to always be on call and didn't even get provided a phone by the company. My company neither promoted based on competence nor seniority but based on incompetence (sounds ludicrous but literally was a running gag within the company). Oh and I made like $30k. I mean that whole experience sucked, but I never felt like it was really ruining my life, probably because I wasn't indebted. People without degrees got it hard, man.

That job was shit, how many years did you hang on?

[rayiner]

Is HYS sticker still credited? Say for a splitter that doesn't have any T14 full rides or even big money anywhere really? Btw sticker at H is 315k now, at repayment, assuming COL and tuition increases etc.

Here's the thing. When I was a 0L, in 2008-09, HYS at sticker was TCR. But three things have happened since then:

1) We have much better idea about placement in the lower T14. There were legitimately lots of people who believed that lower T14 would be top 1/3 to get big law, and CCN would be top half to get it. But now we have data showing that the lower T14 is a lot more secure than that. I think, if anything, people overestimate the grades required to get big law from a T14.

2) PAY-E and temporary school jobs mean that you'll still be able to eat if you strike out.

3) Sticker costs have continued to go up while salaries have not. I paid sticker at NU, and came out with under $240k. If I had been at all responsible with my money between 1L summer and 2L summer, I could've kept it under $220k. But sticker at most schools now is pushing $300k or more. That's literally an extra $700/month for 10 years on a big law salary that isn't any bigger since 2007.

If I didn't have big money in the T14, I guess I'd do Harvard at sticker, but since when do splitters get into Harvard?

[Pneumonia]

I guess splitters getting into Harvard is the 4th thing to have happened since 08/09. Several 3.5x's have swung it this cycle.

[Mal Reynolds]

Ray what are you gonna do post clerkship.

[Theopliske8711]

For some of you in biglaw now: what are you guys considering for the end game?

[Rahviveh]

For some of you in biglaw now: what are you guys considering for the end game?

I'd like to hear about this from the litigation side, since I've heard that in-house jobs are not as easy to get if you're a litigator. AUSA sounds nice but these seem super competitive. What other exit options are there for litigation?

[IAFG]

For some of you in biglaw now: what are you guys considering for the end game?

I'd like to hear about this from the litigation side, since I've heard that in-house jobs are not as easy to get if you're a litigator. AUSA sounds nice but these seem super competitive. What other exit options are there for litigation?

State AG, p side, smaller firms, other state and local govt

[HRomanus]

For some of you in biglaw now: what are you guys considering for the end game?

I'd like to hear about this from the litigation side, since I've heard that in-house jobs are not as easy to get if you're a litigator. AUSA sounds nice but these seem super competitive. What other exit options are there for litigation?

State AG, p side, smaller firms, other state and local govt

Are exit options more secure in litigational or transactional?

[IAFG]

For some of you in biglaw now: what are you guys considering for the end game?

I'd like to hear about this from the litigation side, since I've heard that in-house jobs are not as easy to get if you're a litigator. AUSA sounds nice but these seem super competitive. What other exit options are there for litigation?

State AG, p side, smaller firms, other state and local govt

Are exit options more secure in litigational or transactional?

What do you mean, secure? There is a huge variety of things people leave firms to do, from every practice area.

[HRomanus]

Are exit options more secure in litigational or transactional?

What do you mean, secure? There is a huge variety of things people leave firms to do, from every practice area.

As far as availability, income, QOL, etc.