So you want to do PI? Forum

[BlueLotus]

PMF is a little bit more prestige/grades whorish than most other government (state/federal) spots, but not overwhelmingly so. Back in the day, they used to administer a weird "LSAT-style" (LR/LG/RC) assessment exam to factor into the hiring -- not sure if they still do that. Veteran's preference basically guarantees you a spot.

Thanks!

Will PMF be tough since I've not worked/volunteered for the gubmint in any capacity? I have worked for LSC-funded legal aid orgs (which receive federal money) but not directly in fedgov.

Will being an AmeriCorps alum help?

[twenty]

Tougher, yes, impossible, certainly not. I'd estimate 1/3 or so PMF finalists are not veterans and have zero government work experience. I'm sure AmeriCorps will help, as well as your LSC work.

I feel like if you want to do government, you have nothing to lose by throwing in an app to PMF. As worldtraveler mentioned, the application process is stupid, but don't let that dissuade you from applying all the same.

[worldtraveler]

Tougher, yes, impossible, certainly not. I'd estimate 1/3 or so PMF finalists are not veterans and have zero government work experience. I'm sure AmeriCorps will help, as well as your LSC work.

I feel like if you want to do government, you have nothing to lose by throwing in an app to PMF. As worldtraveler mentioned, the application process is stupid, but don't let that dissuade you from applying all the same.

There also aren't so many legal opportunities through PMF. This year they even had a warning on the app that said you cannot work as a lawyer through the program. It might still be worth an application but probably not the best opportunity.

[girlmonster]

I have a less serious question to ask simply out of curiosity, because I think it would be interesting to see how it differs depending on the type of PI employer (e.g., gov't v. HRW v. legal aid clinic in Oakland, etc.) and the position:

How acceptable are visible tattoos and piercings?

[BlueLotus]

Is environmental law PI a "unicorn" a la IHR? Seems like a good chunk of the enviro kiddos at my school end up working for big firms representing polluters. Don't see very many openings in this practice area on PSJD, as compared to family law, housing, public benefits, etc.

[twenty]

This year they even had a warning on the app that said you cannot work as a lawyer through the program.

Law school career services offices keep trying to say that as well, though a GS 9 with upward mobility to GS 12 (which often includes a discretionary 13) that you were only able to get with a graduate degree makes 10 years of PAYE payments totally worth it.

Obviously, as you said, there are probably better (actually law-related) job options with the feds, but PMF is by no means a bad way to go.

[worldtraveler]

Is environmental law PI a "unicorn" a la IHR? Seems like a good chunk of the enviro kiddos at my school end up working for big firms representing polluters. Don't see very many openings in this practice area on PSJD, as compared to family law, housing, public benefits, etc.

I know a couple people trying to break into the field and they are having a rough go of it. One eventually found an awesome job and one is on a school funded position and I think he'll end up with a full time job after it. It's definitely harder to get than the other ones you mention but it does exist.

I have a less serious question to ask simply out of curiosity, because I think it would be interesting to see how it differs depending on the type of PI employer (e.g., gov't v. HRW v. legal aid clinic in Oakland, etc.) and the position:

How acceptable are visible tattoos and piercings?

I haven't noticed many "alternative" looking people in human rights work, except in LGBTI advocacy. Some of the problem is in the funding. IHR funding comes from governments and from foundations run by rich people. They may like to throw money at things to change the world according to their personal world view, but they're still a bit stodgy when it comes to personal experience.

[koalacity]

Speaking of unicorn-esque PI areas, do you know anyone working in animal law? I realize it's perhaps the most unicorn of all PI areas because it's such a tiny field with very little funding. If you do have any familiarity with it, do you think HYS (especially YS) are your only options for potentially finding a job in the field, or could Berkeley/CCN give you a shot?

I'm by no means set on animal law, partially because I know the job prospects are abysmal and partially because there are a number of other PI areas that are also extremely interesting to me, but I'd love to hear any information/anecdotes you might have about it.

[worldtraveler]

Speaking of unicorn-esque PI areas, do you know anyone working in animal law? I realize it's perhaps the most unicorn of all PI areas because it's such a tiny field with very little funding. If you do have any familiarity with it, do you think HYS (especially YS) are your only options for potentially finding a job in the field, or could Berkeley/CCN give you a shot?

I'm by no means set on animal law, partially because I know the job prospects are abysmal and partially because there are a number of other PI areas that are also extremely interesting to me, but I'd love to hear any information/anecdotes you might have about it.

I've honestly never seen an animal law job posting and don't know anyone in the field. That is probably not a good sign.

[BlueLotus]

Speaking of unicorn-esque PI areas, do you know anyone working in animal law? I realize it's perhaps the most unicorn of all PI areas because it's such a tiny field with very little funding. If you do have any familiarity with it, do you think HYS (especially YS) are your only options for potentially finding a job in the field, or could Berkeley/CCN give you a shot?

I'm by no means set on animal law, partially because I know the job prospects are abysmal and partially because there are a number of other PI areas that are also extremely interesting to me, but I'd love to hear any information/anecdotes you might have about it.

What aspect of animal law? If you are interested in prosecution, many District Attorney's offices have animal cruelty units.
For instance: http://www.mass.gov/norfolkda/animalcru ... ntion.html

[BlueLotus]

Speaking of unicorn-esque PI areas, do you know anyone working in animal law? I realize it's perhaps the most unicorn of all PI areas because it's such a tiny field with very little funding. If you do have any familiarity with it, do you think HYS (especially YS) are your only options for potentially finding a job in the field, or could Berkeley/CCN give you a shot?

I'm by no means set on animal law, partially because I know the job prospects are abysmal and partially because there are a number of other PI areas that are also extremely interesting to me, but I'd love to hear any information/anecdotes you might have about it.

I've honestly never seen an animal law job posting and don't know anyone in the field. That is probably not a good sign.

yeah, i just looked up "animal" in PSJD and 8 results came up. 3 unpaid internships, 3 fellowship sponsors, and the 2 regular FTLT jerbs require like 5 years of litigation experience.

good to dream, but it ain't pretty out there!

[koalacity]

Speaking of unicorn-esque PI areas, do you know anyone working in animal law? I realize it's perhaps the most unicorn of all PI areas because it's such a tiny field with very little funding. If you do have any familiarity with it, do you think HYS (especially YS) are your only options for potentially finding a job in the field, or could Berkeley/CCN give you a shot?

I'm by no means set on animal law, partially because I know the job prospects are abysmal and partially because there are a number of other PI areas that are also extremely interesting to me, but I'd love to hear any information/anecdotes you might have about it.

I've honestly never seen an animal law job posting and don't know anyone in the field. That is probably not a good sign.

Yeah, I mean, the few I see posted are generally JD-advantage legislative affairs type positions (for organizations like HSUS, ALDF, Best Friends, etc.). I am definitely not optimistic.

[girlmonster]

Thanks, worldtraveler. I know the high-ranking people in the organizations I've worked for all seemed more like the elite than activists (at least in how they interacted with our major donors). I didn't meet many of the actual researchers, though. It would've been pretty funny to me if I walked into the office of whatever organization takes me in after I graduate, all professionally groomed, and everyone else had facial piercings and rainbow hair.

Koalacity, what exactly does animal law entail? I currently work for a local animal welfare organization, and my friend worked for our city's chapter of the Humane Society. Our lawyers and my friend are all corporate lawyers who help out pro bono.

[koalacity]

yeah, i just looked up "animal" in PSJD and 8 results came up. 3 unpaid internships, 3 fellowship sponsors, and the 2 regular FTLT jerbs require like 5 years of litigation experience.

good to dream, but it ain't pretty out there!

Yeah, that's about what I would expect, unfortunately.

Any thoughts on how doing a summer (especially 1L summer) internship at an animal law organization would impact your chances of getting a postgrad job in a different PI field? Would doing a 2L summer position and clinics/externships in whatever other field be enough to show legitimate interest for a FTLT job, or would it be a bad idea to "waste" my 1L summer in a place where whatever connections I would make would be extremely unlikely to help in getting a job down the line?

[koalacity]

Thanks, worldtraveler. I know the high-ranking people in the organizations I've worked for all seemed more like the elite than activists (at least in how they interacted with our major donors). I didn't meet many of the actual researchers, though. It would've been pretty funny to me if I walked into the office of whatever organization takes me in after I graduate, all professionally groomed, and everyone else had facial piercings and rainbow hair.

Koalacity, what exactly does animal law entail? I currently work for a local animal welfare organization, and my friend worked for our city's chapter of the Humane Society. Our lawyers and my friend are all corporate lawyers who help out pro bono.

Sending you a PM!

[worldtraveler]

Thanks, worldtraveler. I know the high-ranking people in the organizations I've worked for all seemed more like the elite than activists (at least in how they interacted with our major donors). I didn't meet many of the actual researchers, though. It would've been pretty funny to me if I walked into the office of whatever organization takes me in after I graduate, all professionally groomed, and everyone else had facial piercings and rainbow hair.

Koalacity, what exactly does animal law entail? I currently work for a local animal welfare organization, and my friend worked for our city's chapter of the Humane Society. Our lawyers and my friend are all corporate lawyers who help out pro bono.

This might vary by the kind of research you do. If you are a field researcher for HRW doing interviews, you have to keep a bit of a low profile. If you sit in an office and write articles and memos on the applicability of a human rights treaty, you can look like whatever you want as long as you aren't meeting with donors.

yeah, i just looked up "animal" in PSJD and 8 results came up. 3 unpaid internships, 3 fellowship sponsors, and the 2 regular FTLT jerbs require like 5 years of litigation experience.

good to dream, but it ain't pretty out there!

Yeah, that's about what I would expect, unfortunately.

Any thoughts on how doing a summer (especially 1L summer) internship at an animal law organization would impact your chances of getting a postgrad job in a different PI field? Would doing a 2L summer position and clinics/externships in whatever other field be enough to show legitimate interest for a FTLT job, or would it be a bad idea to "waste" my 1L summer in a place where whatever connections I would make would be extremely unlikely to help in getting a job down the line?

It shouldn't be a problem. You would likely deal with other kinds of law in that position and you can spin it if you need to.

You can also gun for animal law from day one, and if you go to a school with a post grad fellowship, take that and go to the organization of your choice and then basically write yourself a grant to fund you to stay on.

[JCougar]

I have a less serious question to ask simply out of curiosity, because I think it would be interesting to see how it differs depending on the type of PI employer (e.g., gov't v. HRW v. legal aid clinic in Oakland, etc.) and the position:

How acceptable are visible tattoos and piercings?

I know a number of people with tattoos and piercings in plaintiff-side work (some at very prestigious firms) and legal aid. I don't really think it matters at all for these types of jobs. The attorneys in these fields are very liberal. Government might be a bit more conservative on this. It also depends on the state/office, too. If you want to do plaintiff-side work in California, you could probably do so with well-maintained dreadlocks and gauges in your ears, as long as you wear a nice suit to court/at meetings/in front of clients. In Nebraska, maybe not so much.

I once went to a worker-side law conference and there was an attorney from like Boca Raton there wearing a "Heat" tank-top jersey with no undershirt. I mean, that's a little bit extreme, and I wouldn't recommend that until you have your own established practice, but the whole personal appearance thing is fairly overblown...and relates primarily to Biglaw. I once interviewed for a plaintiff-side firm and the guy who interviewed me was wearing shorts and a golf shirt. He told me specifically not to wear a suit to the interview, so I wore a button-up collared shirt with dress pants and leather-soled shoes. I was embarrassed because I was way over-dressed. I've also seen plaintiff-side attorneys at ABA conferences with full back tattoos wearing open-backed dresses...with very successful careers.

It's not the norm, but it doesn't seem to be an impediment to success, either. I would still try and look as professional as possible when looking for a job, but piercings/tattoos by themselves aren't going to stop you from getting anything in legal aid/PI/plaintiff-type work. I'd try and cover them up for government jobs though. Just for the interview, at least. Once you're in the system, no one is really going to care. There's oddballs all throughout the legal profession.

And people are especially not going to care if you are doing good work.

[cron1834]

I have a less serious question to ask simply out of curiosity, because I think it would be interesting to see how it differs depending on the type of PI employer (e.g., gov't v. HRW v. legal aid clinic in Oakland, etc.) and the position:

How acceptable are visible tattoos and piercings?

I know a number of people with tattoos and piercings in plaintiff-side work (some at very prestigious firms) and legal aid. I don't really think it matters at all for these types of jobs. The attorneys in these fields are very liberal. Government might be a bit more conservative on this. It also depends on the state/office, too. If you want to do plaintiff-side work in California, you could probably do so with well-maintained dreadlocks and gauges in your ears, as long as you wear a nice suit to court/at meetings/in front of clients. In Nebraska, maybe not so much.

I once went to a worker-side law conference and there was an attorney from like Boca Raton there wearing a "Heat" tank-top jersey with no undershirt. I mean, that's a little bit extreme, and I wouldn't recommend that until you have your own established practice, but the whole personal appearance thing is fairly overblown...and relates primarily to Biglaw. I once interviewed for a plaintiff-side firm and the guy who interviewed me was wearing shorts and a golf shirt. He told me specifically not to wear a suit to the interview, so I wore a button-up collared shirt with dress pants and leather-soled shoes. I was embarrassed because I was way over-dressed. I've also seen plaintiff-side attorneys at ABA conferences with full back tattoos wearing open-backed dresses...with very successful careers.

It's not the norm, but it doesn't seem to be an impediment to success, either. I would still try and look as professional as possible when looking for a job, but piercings/tattoos by themselves aren't going to stop you from getting anything in legal aid/PI/plaintiff-type work. I'd try and cover them up for government jobs though. Just for the interview, at least. Once you're in the system, no one is really going to care. There's oddballs all throughout the legal profession.

And people are especially not going to care if you are doing good work.

Awesome.

[BlueLotus]

I have a less serious question to ask simply out of curiosity, because I think it would be interesting to see how it differs depending on the type of PI employer (e.g., gov't v. HRW v. legal aid clinic in Oakland, etc.) and the position:

How acceptable are visible tattoos and piercings?

I know a number of people with tattoos and piercings in plaintiff-side work (some at very prestigious firms) and legal aid. I don't really think it matters at all for these types of jobs. The attorneys in these fields are very liberal. Government might be a bit more conservative on this. It also depends on the state/office, too. If you want to do plaintiff-side work in California, you could probably do so with well-maintained dreadlocks and gauges in your ears, as long as you wear a nice suit to court/at meetings/in front of clients. In Nebraska, maybe not so much.

I once went to a worker-side law conference and there was an attorney from like Boca Raton there wearing a "Heat" tank-top jersey with no undershirt. I mean, that's a little bit extreme, and I wouldn't recommend that until you have your own established practice, but the whole personal appearance thing is fairly overblown...and relates primarily to Biglaw. I once interviewed for a plaintiff-side firm and the guy who interviewed me was wearing shorts and a golf shirt. He told me specifically not to wear a suit to the interview, so I wore a button-up collared shirt with dress pants and leather-soled shoes. I was embarrassed because I was way over-dressed. I've also seen plaintiff-side attorneys at ABA conferences with full back tattoos wearing open-backed dresses...with very successful careers.

It's not the norm, but it doesn't seem to be an impediment to success, either. I would still try and look as professional as possible when looking for a job, but piercings/tattoos by themselves aren't going to stop you from getting anything in legal aid/PI/plaintiff-type work. I'd try and cover them up for government jobs though. Just for the interview, at least. Once you're in the system, no one is really going to care. There's oddballs all throughout the legal profession.

And people are especially not going to care if you are doing good work.

Awesome.

Keep in mind, though, that if you're working with foreign-born clients, it may be best to err on the conservative/formal side, keeping in mind expectations from their home-countries. I've worked in immigration, and I'm not so sure that my clients would have taken me seriously in a Heat tank top jersey.

[cron1834]

I'm not going to do this, I'm just saying it's awesome that the guy exists.

(Also, this wasn't client-facing work)

[BlueLotus]

I'm not going to do this, I'm just saying it's awesome that the guy exists.

(Also, this wasn't client-facing work)

true, true. even so, that is quite a odd sight at a professional conference (and this is coming from someone who's been to sociology conferences full of "shitlibs" )

anyone here know how feasible it is to switch from civil legal aid to PD?

[glasses_case]

Speaking of unicorn-esque PI areas, do you know anyone working in animal law? I realize it's perhaps the most unicorn of all PI areas because it's such a tiny field with very little funding. If you do have any familiarity with it, do you think HYS (especially YS) are your only options for potentially finding a job in the field, or could Berkeley/CCN give you a shot?

I'm by no means set on animal law, partially because I know the job prospects are abysmal and partially because there are a number of other PI areas that are also extremely interesting to me, but I'd love to hear any information/anecdotes you might have about it.

The Animal Legal Defense fund (in Sonoma County, CA) hires a few entry-level fellows every year, but I have no idea where folks go from there.

http://aldf.org/about-us/meet-our-staff ... n-program/

[BlueLotus]

Speaking of unicorn-esque PI areas, do you know anyone working in animal law? I realize it's perhaps the most unicorn of all PI areas because it's such a tiny field with very little funding. If you do have any familiarity with it, do you think HYS (especially YS) are your only options for potentially finding a job in the field, or could Berkeley/CCN give you a shot?

I'm by no means set on animal law, partially because I know the job prospects are abysmal and partially because there are a number of other PI areas that are also extremely interesting to me, but I'd love to hear any information/anecdotes you might have about it.

The Animal Legal Defense fund (in Sonoma County, CA) hires a few entry-level fellows every year, but I have no idea where folks go from there.

http://aldf.org/about-us/meet-our-staff ... n-program/

wow, those fellow profiles are crazy impressive.

[worldtraveler]

Speaking of unicorn-esque PI areas, do you know anyone working in animal law? I realize it's perhaps the most unicorn of all PI areas because it's such a tiny field with very little funding. If you do have any familiarity with it, do you think HYS (especially YS) are your only options for potentially finding a job in the field, or could Berkeley/CCN give you a shot?

I'm by no means set on animal law, partially because I know the job prospects are abysmal and partially because there are a number of other PI areas that are also extremely interesting to me, but I'd love to hear any information/anecdotes you might have about it.

The Animal Legal Defense fund (in Sonoma County, CA) hires a few entry-level fellows every year, but I have no idea where folks go from there.

http://aldf.org/about-us/meet-our-staff ... n-program/

wow, those fellow profiles are crazy impressive.

Most successful PI people are fairly good at embellishing their accomplishments though. It's often less impressive in reality. People don't really lie, but saying you worked on a groundbreaking case can really mean you wrote one background memo. I'm working on a high profile case right now and it looks really awesome on my website bio but in reality I am accomplishing very little.

[koalacity]

Any thoughts on how doing a summer (especially 1L summer) internship at an animal law organization would impact your chances of getting a postgrad job in a different PI field? Would doing a 2L summer position and clinics/externships in whatever other field be enough to show legitimate interest for a FTLT job, or would it be a bad idea to "waste" my 1L summer in a place where whatever connections I would make would be extremely unlikely to help in getting a job down the line?

It shouldn't be a problem. You would likely deal with other kinds of law in that position and you can spin it if you need to.

You can also gun for animal law from day one, and if you go to a school with a post grad fellowship, take that and go to the organization of your choice and then basically write yourself a grant to fund you to stay on.

Thank you!

Another question for you, worldtraveler-would you mind sharing a bit about how you decided to pick Berkeley over whatever other options you had, and what you did/did not like about B as a PI-focused student? How helpful was the career services office? Was the summer funding complicated (it seems like summer funding is more or less guaranteed, but they also seem to reference funding from "other sources" frequently-were there people who did PI summers and didn't manage to get funding)?