2014 Rankings Released Forum

[Sheffield]

Just do a small experiment. When you are doing your summer at a firm, go around asking the people around you if they know where ASU is ranked. You'll be surprised. Not to say that the people you talk to are the ones making the hiring decisions, but 'impressions' of schools just stay with people for life and USNews rankings do little to change them. Heck, let me see how much you keep up with USNews rankings a few years after being at a firm.

+1 because there is nothing you wrote I disagree with.

Actually, last week we (several SAs) had lunch with our SA firm (they like to keep us SAs updated, plus there is the human touch aspect) and for a brief millisecond the topic of the new law school ranking came up. Nobody knew they were due out and it was obvious that they (three associates) could have cared less.

To me, the bigger point is that I am this firm [primarily] because the USNWR ranking provided me the opportunity of interviewing with two dozen on-campus recruiters. On the other hand I have a couple acquaintances from other area law schools who are lucky to meet with one or two recruiters all year. They are smart, friendly, have good grades and attend well-respected schools. Their limitation revolves around their USNWR status (which actually isn’t all that bad…. a seven point jump would place one into tier 1, whether that is a game changer, I do not know).

What I do know is that I do not want send out emails, stamp envelopes, network and look up alumni (I did that before OCI, giant fail and a waste of time). For some it must work fine, I know my firm is in the midst of some jillion dollar case and the president of the competing firm is from Cooley. . . round and round it goes.

[jenesaislaw]

Just do a small experiment. When you are doing your summer at a firm, go around asking the people around you if they know where ASU is ranked. You'll be surprised. Not to say that the people you talk to are the ones making the hiring decisions, but 'impressions' of schools just stay with people for life and USNews rankings do little to change them. Heck, let me see how much you keep up with USNews rankings a few years after being at a firm.

+1 because there is nothing you wrote I disagree with.

Actually, last week we (several SAs) had lunch with our SA firm (they like to keep us SAs updated, plus there is the human touch aspect) and for a brief millisecond the topic of the new law school ranking came up. Nobody knew they were due out and it was obvious that they (three associates) could have cared less.

To me, the bigger point is that I am this firm [primarily] because the USNWR ranking provided me the opportunity of interviewing with two dozen on-campus recruiters. On the other hand I have a couple acquaintances from other area law schools who are lucky to meet with one or two recruiters all year. They are smart, friendly, have good grades and attend well-respected schools. Their limitation revolves around their USNWR status (which actually isn’t all that bad…. a seven point jump would place one into tier 1, whether that is a game changer, I do not know).

What I do know is that I do not want send out emails, stamp envelopes, network and look up alumni (I did that before OCI, giant fail and a waste of time). For some it must work fine, I know my firm is in the midst of some jillion dollar case and the president of the competing firm is from Cooley. . . round and round it goes.

*insert the cousin of post hoc ergo propter hoc*

[ms9]

Actually, last week we (several SAs) had lunch with our SA firm (they like to keep us SAs updated, plus there is the human touch aspect) and for a brief millisecond the topic of the new law school ranking came up. Nobody knew they were due out and it was obvious that they (three associates) could have cared less.

I think you mean "could not have cared less", yes? Sorry, this is just an odd but huge pet peeve of mine, especially when I can not reverse engineer the rest of the dialogue to be certain what the original intent is. You'd think I'd be able to, but me not so smart!

[Yukos]

Actually, last week we (several SAs) had lunch with our SA firm (they like to keep us SAs updated, plus there is the human touch aspect) and for a brief millisecond the topic of the new law school ranking came up. Nobody knew they were due out and it was obvious that they (three associates) could have cared less.

I think you mean "could not have cared less", yes? Sorry, this is just an odd but huge pet peeve of mine, especially when I can not reverse engineer the rest of the dialogue to be certain what the original intent is. You'd think I'd be able to, but me not so smart!

No, Sheffield is trolling, don't worry about not being able parse his writing.

My favorite part is how his firm likes to take SAs to lunch to keep the "human touch."

[Sheffield]

My favorite part is how his firm likes to take SAs to lunch to keep the "human touch."

I am delighted to read that you had a favorite part.

[ms9]

To me, the bigger point is that I am this firm [primarily] because the USNWR ranking provided me the opportunity of interviewing with two dozen on-campus recruiters. On the other hand I have a couple acquaintances from other area law schools who are lucky to meet with one or two recruiters all year. They are smart, friendly, have good grades and attend well-respected schools. Their limitation revolves around their USNWR status (which actually isn’t all that bad…. a seven point jump would place one into tier 1, whether that is a game changer, I do not know).

What I do know is that I do not want send out emails, stamp envelopes, network and look up alumni (I did that before OCI, giant fail and a waste of time). For some it must work fine, I know my firm is in the midst of some jillion dollar case and the president of the competing firm is from Cooley. . . round and round it goes.

I certainly agree that there is a high level of correlation between USNWR rankings and OCI footprint. if you want to bet on OCI (not really a good bet even at T14) or just loathe the idea of networking, cold calling, etc to the point you are willing to take that bet, I would fine-point which schools have the largest OCIs. I believe NALPDirectory has the information.

[jenesaislaw]

I certainly agree that there is a high level of correlation between USNWR rankings and OCI footprint

It's correlative at the top, but not so much past that, so I wouldn't call it a high level of correlation. It's tracks biglaw placement, not shockingly.

[2012Lsatscore]

To me, the bigger point is that I am this firm [primarily] because the USNWR ranking provided me the opportunity of interviewing with two dozen on-campus recruiters. On the other hand I have a couple acquaintances from other area law schools who are lucky to meet with one or two recruiters all year. They are smart, friendly, have good grades and attend well-respected schools. Their limitation revolves around their USNWR status (which actually isn’t all that bad…. a seven point jump would place one into tier 1, whether that is a game changer, I do not know).

What I do know is that I do not want send out emails, stamp envelopes, network and look up alumni (I did that before OCI, giant fail and a waste of time). For some it must work fine, I know my firm is in the midst of some jillion dollar case and the president of the competing firm is from Cooley. . . round and round it goes.

I certainly agree that there is a high level of correlation between USNWR rankings and OCI footprint. if you want to bet on OCI (not really a good bet even at T14) or just loathe the idea of networking, cold calling, etc to the point you are willing to take that bet, I would fine-point which schools have the largest OCIs. I believe NALPDirectory has the information.

Link please?

[ms9]

To me, the bigger point is that I am this firm [primarily] because the USNWR ranking provided me the opportunity of interviewing with two dozen on-campus recruiters. On the other hand I have a couple acquaintances from other area law schools who are lucky to meet with one or two recruiters all year. They are smart, friendly, have good grades and attend well-respected schools. Their limitation revolves around their USNWR status (which actually isn’t all that bad…. a seven point jump would place one into tier 1, whether that is a game changer, I do not know).

What I do know is that I do not want send out emails, stamp envelopes, network and look up alumni (I did that before OCI, giant fail and a waste of time). For some it must work fine, I know my firm is in the midst of some jillion dollar case and the president of the competing firm is from Cooley. . . round and round it goes.

I certainly agree that there is a high level of correlation between USNWR rankings and OCI footprint. if you want to bet on OCI (not really a good bet even at T14) or just loathe the idea of networking, cold calling, etc to the point you are willing to take that bet, I would fine-point which schools have the largest OCIs. I believe NALPDirectory has the information.

Link please?

add .com and there you go. DATA!

and yes, the OCI to Rankings correlation breaks down as you go down through the rankings. Actually, there just isn't much OCI'ing going on at all after a certain cutoff that is likely near the top 25- 30ish.

[Sheffield]

I certainly agree that there is a high level of correlation between USNWR rankings and OCI footprint. . . .I believe NALPDirectory has the information.

OK. I checked out several firms through NALP. Pretty much, no surprises, the higher ranked schools receive plenty of OCI attention. In major cities where there are multiple schools, the upper ranked schools are selected. Although infrequent, a BL firm might pass up one of the elite schools for a lessor ranked school.

Side question…. (this has to be incorrect) I read somewhere on TLS that firms pay schools for the privilege of interviewing students. That cannot be right, can it? Wouldn’t schools strive to persuade firms to come on campus to interview/hire students (given their six-figure tuition debt).... at no cost to the firm?

[ms9]

I certainly agree that there is a high level of correlation between USNWR rankings and OCI footprint. . . .I believe NALPDirectory has the information.

OK. I checked out several firms through NALP. Pretty much, no surprises, the higher ranked schools receive plenty of OCI attention. In major cities where there are multiple schools, the upper ranked schools are selected. Although infrequent, a BL firm might pass up one of the elite schools for a lessor ranked school.

Side question…. (this has to be incorrect) I read somewhere on TLS that firms pay schools for the privilege of interviewing students. That cannot be right, can it? Wouldn’t schools strive to persuade firms to come on campus to interview/hire students (given their six-figure tuition debt).... at no cost to the firm?

Yes, many BigLaw firms pay a fee to a number of law schools as part of the OCI process. Keep in mind though this includes physical interview space and lunch and/or breakfast/dinner. I don;t think schools are making much or any money of of this--and I think most schools (at least I did) would waive this fee for govt./first time firms/and other circumstances.

Tangentially, I am aware of one law school where a firm canceled an OCI visit due to the depths of the recession and the Dean of CSO banned that firm for 5 years. Highly predictably, his boss (i.e. Dean of Law School) made him apologize to the firm and lift the ban.

[Sheffield]

Saw your profile, you obviously have the chops to offer insightful opinions.

One of the typical predicaments students run into regards bad timing. Student (under stress) accepts an offer then comes a better ($) offer at a prestigious firm, student reneges on original offer, understandably the firm is resentful but what about the school? Assuming the firm contacts the school and says #!!$%$ about their student reneging, is this a bonafide problem or urban legend? Belief is, it makes the school look bad, thus it makes the student look bad, thus there are consequences. Y/N ?

Regarding this thread. Other than student/school pride I do not conceive a school jumping from #10 to #8 will make a difference on what firms show up on campus. There undoubtedly is a trigger point where it does make a difference, do not know where that line is…. I imagine if I were in the LS application stage, I would research.

I realize that some might take issue with this... but for me the release of the new rankings is simply a form of entertainment (with the possibility of enhanced school pride, or slight disappointment) , for others (hoping to interview with recruiters) the release is significant.... IMHO.

[DaleCooper]

I realize that some might take issue with this... but for me the release of the new rankings is simply a form of entertainment (with the possibility of enhanced school pride, or slight disappointment) , for others (hoping to interview with recruiters) the release is significant.... IMHO.

My guess is that the real benefit of an improved US News ranking is that you get better applicants... but that happens over the span of a decade or two, not in the span of a year. It's pretty clear that NYU is sitting where it is today, employment-wise, because of some strategic decisions made back in the 90s that may or may not have been intended to game the US News rankings and take it from MVBDNCG-level to CC-level.* But seeing as how those decisions (poaching big-name faculty, increasing scholarships, building new facilities, expanding career services, etc.) have created legitimate improvements in both the class profile and the quality of education, and those improvements have attracted more firms to OCI, why complain?

(That said, I think ASU's ranking is a one-year fluke... anyone who went there because of their new ranking is an idiot.)

*I don't feel like dealing with Penn trolls or anti-Penn trolls, so just pretend there's a "P" somewhere in that sentence. I don't care where you put it.

[005618502]

I remember last year US news posted something with the T10 schools (in no specific order) in advance of the release date. I wonder if they will do this again...it was boring last year (if I remember correctly) because it was the same schools as the year before in the T10 lol

[ms9]

I realize that some might take issue with this... but for me the release of the new rankings is simply a form of entertainment (with the possibility of enhanced school pride, or slight disappointment) , for others (hoping to interview with recruiters) the release is significant.... IMHO.

My guess is that the real benefit of an improved US News ranking is that you get better applicants... but that happens over the span of a decade or two, not in the span of a year. It's pretty clear that NYU is sitting where it is today, employment-wise, because of some strategic decisions made back in the 90s that may or may not have been intended to game the US News rankings and take it from MVBDNCG-level to CC-level.* But seeing as how those decisions (poaching big-name faculty, increasing scholarships, building new facilities, expanding career services, etc.) have created legitimate improvements in both the class profile and the quality of education, and those improvements have attracted more firms to OCI, why complain?

Ding ding ding, that is precisely and empirically true. It may also help slightly with alumni giving and over a very long time employment (that is debatable because generally the "BigLaw Schools" have much less variability over time in the rankings).

I certainly agree that, as a law school administrator or dean, over time you should focus internally on building a better school brick by brick while being externally aware of what the competition is doing towards that end.

My only amendment is that I actually think one year changes in rankings can significantly (sadly) alter application and admissions decision -making. Rankings also have an odd but real effect on behavior for faculty, students and administrators.

[pacifica]

Sorry, I haven't read all the pages for the debates, but from the ones I've read, it's really interesting that we all seem to have quite high standards on what the rankings should provide us with. I just wanted to chip in and say we should all be grateful that law school rankings are as encompassing as they are already. They're not close to ideal obviously, especially for the non-T14 schools, but I think we have it way better off compared to most other ranking systems.

One analogy I always like to draw is to med schools. It's similar to law in that most people are doing it as a professional apprenticeship, to ultimately get a job requiring that degree and practice as a professional, but a small subset want to continue down the academia track. USNWR breaks med schools down into two "main" categories: primary care and research, and the two lists are NO WHERE close in how they rate the schools (http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... h-rankings versus http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... e-rankings). I feel like if I wanted to become a doctor who wants to practice in the clinic, I'd be in a bind choosing between Harvard versus U of Washington, especially because that comparison sounds very counter-intuitive. At least law school rankings don't put us in such extreme binds.

Similarly, many "best universities in the world" rankings, including USNRWR's, are sketchy as hell. Not to sound like I'm speaking out of sour grapes or anything, but for example, my alma mater of Dartmouth got an "academic reputation" score of 41/100, whereas U of Minnesota and Penn State got scores of 83 and 77 respectively. They're not bad schools by any means, but I'm not sure any reasonable American would agree with this assessment. But if I'm on the international job market, looks like I'm shit out of luck if I had a Dartmouth BA alone...

So in summary, I just want to say I'm grateful that the USNWR rankings for law school is in most ways intuitive with what I know from a school's common-sense reputation, it encompassing many important aspects of a professional training's contexts, and with few exceptions, stays similar year to year. I know it's a stupid scenario, but if I were allowed to only have two pieces of information about a law school before committing, I'd probably pick NJ250 % and USNWR ranking and be generally happy with my choice.

[XCanadian91]

1. Yale
2. Stanford
3. Harvard
4. Columbia
5. Chicago
6. NYU
7. Penn
7. UVA
9. Berkeley
10. Michigan
10. Duke
10. NU
13. Cornell
14. GULC

+1

[DaleCooper]

Oh, we're doing that again. Okay.

My prediction: GULC stays at #13. TLS cares way more about NLJ250+A3 than real life people do. TLS also cares way less about annual snowfall and no jobs for spouses and no nearby family and friends and limited strategic romance options than real life people do.

The best school in D.C. is always going to bring in a certain degree of quality. Last time I looked GULC was top 10 in student numbers, and they'll always be able to get really good professors by virtue of where they are... they just have a bit of a class size/placement problem. And based on my experience at the early ASW last year, GULC is 1.) quite aware of their TLS rep, 2.) quite aware of US News, and 3.) pissed off enough about it that they're not going to fall to #15 just because some aspies on a discussion forum think they're a "TTT diploma mill lulz". I don't know anyone at Georgetown, but I'd be surprised if they aren't pushing their students to stop putting all their eggs in the D.C. basket. And once US News gets rid of expenditures per student (this year or next?), Georgetown's going to get another boost on Cornell.

I do agree that this might be the year Duke ties for #10. They were only one point below Michigan in raw score last year, and the long-term trends are all in Duke's favor.

[Crowing]

Oh, we're doing that again. Okay.

My prediction: GULC stays at #13. TLS cares way more about NLJ250+A3 than real life people do. TLS also cares way less about annual snowfall and no jobs for spouses and no nearby family and friends and limited strategic romance options than real life people do.

The best school in D.C. is always going to bring in a certain degree of quality. Last time I looked GULC was top 10 in student numbers, and they'll always be able to get really good professors by virtue of where they are... they just have a bit of a class size/placement problem. And based on my experience at the early ASW last year, GULC is 1.) quite aware of their TLS rep, 2.) quite aware of US News, and 3.) pissed off enough about it that they're not going to fall to #15 just because some aspies on a discussion forum think they're a "TTT diploma mill lulz". I don't know anyone at Georgetown, but I'd be surprised if they aren't pushing their students to stop putting all their eggs in the D.C. basket. And once US News gets rid of expenditures per student (this year or next?), Georgetown's going to get another boost on Cornell.

I do agree that this might be the year Duke ties for #10. They were only one point below Michigan in raw score last year, and the long-term trends are all in Duke's favor.

Supposedly USNWR is considering putting more weight on employment statistics this year and possibly excluding school-funded jobs. If these things happen, GULC will get hit hard.

Anyway there's a separate thread for predictions in the admissions forum.

[nickb285]

.

[Yukos]

Oh, we're doing that again. Okay.

My prediction: GULC stays at #13. TLS cares way more about NLJ250+A3 than real life people do. TLS also cares way less about annual snowfall and no jobs for spouses and no nearby family and friends and limited strategic romance options than real life people do.

The best school in D.C. is always going to bring in a certain degree of quality. Last time I looked GULC was top 10 in student numbers, and they'll always be able to get really good professors by virtue of where they are... they just have a bit of a class size/placement problem. And based on my experience at the early ASW last year, GULC is 1.) quite aware of their TLS rep, 2.) quite aware of US News, and 3.) pissed off enough about it that they're not going to fall to #15 just because some aspies on a discussion forum think they're a "TTT diploma mill lulz". I don't know anyone at Georgetown, but I'd be surprised if they aren't pushing their students to stop putting all their eggs in the D.C. basket. And once US News gets rid of expenditures per student (this year or next?), Georgetown's going to get another boost on Cornell.

I do agree that this might be the year Duke ties for #10. They were only one point below Michigan in raw score last year, and the long-term trends are all in Duke's favor.

First, no law school "lets" itself fall (except maybe American), they simply get passed by the competition. And no one is arguing that GULC will fall to 14 or possibly 15 because "TLS aspies" call it GeorgeTTTown. We're predicting it's going to lose ground because employment outcomes are going to be a bigger part of the rankings from now on, and as you mention GULC has a major "class size/placement problem" (also lol at you acting like this isn't a big deal, employment placing is pretty much the only thing that matters about a law school).

Georgetown IS a great school and its faculty is insanely good but it's also incredibly risky. I have a good friend who is near the top of the class at GULC and has a good job lined up and even he says he wouldn't do it again knowing what he knows now.

[Bildungsroman]

Oh, we're doing that again. Okay.

My prediction: GULC stays at #13. TLS cares way more about NLJ250+A3 than real life people do. TLS also cares way less about annual snowfall and no jobs for spouses and no nearby family and friends and limited strategic romance options than real life people do.

The best school in D.C. is always going to bring in a certain degree of quality. Last time I looked GULC was top 10 in student numbers, and they'll always be able to get really good professors by virtue of where they are... they just have a bit of a class size/placement problem. And based on my experience at the early ASW last year, GULC is 1.) quite aware of their TLS rep, 2.) quite aware of US News, and 3.) pissed off enough about it that they're not going to fall to #15 just because some aspies on a discussion forum think they're a "TTT diploma mill lulz". I don't know anyone at Georgetown, but I'd be surprised if they aren't pushing their students to stop putting all their eggs in the D.C. basket. And once US News gets rid of expenditures per student (this year or next?), Georgetown's going to get another boost on Cornell.

I do agree that this might be the year Duke ties for #10. They were only one point below Michigan in raw score last year, and the long-term trends are all in Duke's favor.

Fortunately a law school can will itself to be better just by getting pissed off enough.

[20141023]

.

[GoldHattedGatsby]

Fortunately a law school can will itself to be better just by getting pissed off enough.

I read this in Archer's voice; it was fantastic.

[ManOfTheMinute]

Fortunately a law school can will itself to be better just by getting pissed off enough.

I read this in Archer's voice; it was fantastic.

Truth. Sorry about the whole no-oscar thing btw