Class sizes and medians (c/o 2015) Forum

[AllDangle]

Any Duke info?

[Funkycrime]

Any Duke info?

I want this.

[Other25BeforeYou]

Curious whether or not you lived in Ithaca for those years -- I've lived in Central New York my whole life and Ithaca for the last three years, and Ithaca winters are far milder than Syracuse winters, despite the two cities being only an hour apart.

I lived in Cazenovia (~30 minutes from Syracuse) but have been to Ithaca many times. And you're right, this last winter didn't exist. Unlike any other winter in my lifetime and unlikely to happen again in the near future.

A also agree that Ithaca might be a little warmer...but come on, it's freeeezing

Sweet, I will be in Caz later today, actually. I grew up not too far from Caz, and Ithaca winters don't compare. Winters of 2009 and 2010 the ground would usually be bare in Ithaca and then I would drive to my parents' an hour and a half away and find two feet of snow on the ground. It's freakish.

[052220151]

Paging Crumps and/or rinkrat!! Post the NU medians, I know they told you all at Orientation... pleeeeasseeeee.

[VUSisterRayVU]

Any news on Penn??

[justicefishy]

244 people, they didn't tell us our medians.

[DoctorShawHi]

what's the date that they have to actually reveal medians?

[geary86]

what's the date that they have to actually reveal medians?

ABA now defines "matriculant" as a student attending classes as of October 5th.
So my guess is after this date, all the schools would have to report their medians...

[lovelaw27]

Wayne State's incoming class size is 148. Last year it was 181.

[top30man]

Wayne State's incoming class size is 148. Last year it was 181.

Any medians news?

[lovelaw27]

Wayne State's incoming class size is 148. Last year it was 181.

Any medians news?

The medians for wayne are 156, 3.38. Last year's were 157, 3.39.

Michigan State's is going to have an incoming class of 298; This is down from 307 from last year.

Michigan's incoming class is going to be 345; This is down from 359 from last year.

I don't have medians for MSU or UM.

I would just post the link, but people would need a subscription to view the article so I will just post the whole article if anyone wants to read it.

"
Some Michigan law schools will begin the 2012-13 academic year with a smaller class of incoming students.

Academic experts say a shrinking job market for entry-level attorneys is the biggest driver, but trends vary by school.

The University of Michigan Law School begins its fall semester this week with a class of 345 first-year students drawn from a pool of just over 5,000 applicants, compared with 359 enrolled from 5,422 applicants last fall, and 376 first-years from an applicant pool of 6,312 in 2010.

Wayne State University Law School began its fall semester in late August with 148 first-year students enrolled from 833 applicants, compared with 181 out of 1,123 applicants last year and 197 from 1,363 in 2010.

Dean Robert Ackerman at Wayne State said falling enrollment and applicant interest have plagued law schools nationwide and particularly in Michigan, where most of the school's applicant pool originates. He sees the trend as a mix of the recovery in Michigan's economy and the contracting market for law jobs.

According to a recent report from the National Association for Law Placement, the overall employment rate for class of 2011 law school graduates is 85.6 percent, the lowest it has been since 1994. The association measures employment as of nine months after completing law school.




"Two phenomena here are converging. One is the employment situation, and the harsh reporting on the national stage about legal education. That, I think, is tied to a structural change (in the profession), and not a cyclical trend," Ackerman said.

The school also has been "very deliberate," he said, about maintaining class quality and academic achievement rates at the expense of class size. The median Law School Aptitude Test for the fall 2012 class was 156, and median GPA was 3.38, virtually unchanged since 2010.

Still, the two-year decline of nearly 50 students paying $27,000 per year each in tuition (although up to 40 percent receive some degree of financial aid) will have an impact on revenue over the three years of their enrollment, Ackerman said.

Some 67,957 people submitted more than 460,000 applications to law schools nationwide for the fall 2012 semester, compared with 78,800 applicants last year and 87,500 applicants for fall 2010 admission, according to data from the Law School Admissions Council.

LSAC director of communications Wendy Margolis said the primary reason is believed to be a weakening private-sector job market for recent law school graduates.

"The tenor of the recent articles about this (trend) is really frustrating," said Sarah Zearfoss, senior assistant dean for admissions, financial aid and career planning at UM's law school.

"I feel our students are still very enthusiastic and happy to be here, but they have made the decision in the midst of criticism -- as if friends and academic advisers wonder if they are crazy by choosing to be lawyers."

Michigan State University College of Law also admitted a slightly smaller class of 298 first-years starting Aug. 20, compared with 307 last fall. But the school bucked the national trend by climbing to a record 3,823 applicants, from 3,732 last year.

Charles Roboski, assistant dean for admissions and financial aid at MSU law, said the school has seen a recent bump in both its ranking on the annual Best Law Schools ranking by U.S. News & World Report, and a possibly related surge in out-of-state enrollment.

The school rose this year to No. 82 from No. 95 last year in the U.S. News ranking, and in-state residents have declined from around 63 percent in the early 2000s to less than 50 percent this year. Price may also be a factor, Roboski said, as top-tier schools' tuition continues to climb."

[mrjohnsterman]

Wash U:
166 (-2)
3.68 (+.02)
http://law.wustl.edu/admissions/pages.aspx?id=72

[2014]

Wash U:
166 (-2)
3.68 (+.02)
http://law.wustl.edu/admissions/pages.aspx?id=72

Good god ouch...

[bernaldiaz]

Anyone think Yale or Harvard will fall down to 172?

[spicyyoda17]

Anyone think Yale or Harvard will fall down to 172?

Mind says no, heart says yes.

But my heart also said to buy Facebook stock, so I don't think it can be trusted.

[lovejopd]

Wayne State's incoming class size is 148. Last year it was 181.

Any medians news?

The medians for wayne are 156, 3.38. Last year's were 157, 3.39.

Michigan State's is going to have an incoming class of 298; This is down from 307 from last year.

Michigan's incoming class is going to be 345; This is down from 359 from last year.

I don't have medians for MSU or UM.

I would just post the link, but people would need a subscription to view the article so I will just post the whole article if anyone wants to read it.

"
Some Michigan law schools will begin the 2012-13 academic year with a smaller class of incoming students.

Academic experts say a shrinking job market for entry-level attorneys is the biggest driver, but trends vary by school.

The University of Michigan Law School begins its fall semester this week with a class of 345 first-year students drawn from a pool of just over 5,000 applicants, compared with 359 enrolled from 5,422 applicants last fall, and 376 first-years from an applicant pool of 6,312 in 2010.

Wayne State University Law School began its fall semester in late August with 148 first-year students enrolled from 833 applicants, compared with 181 out of 1,123 applicants last year and 197 from 1,363 in 2010.

Dean Robert Ackerman at Wayne State said falling enrollment and applicant interest have plagued law schools nationwide and particularly in Michigan, where most of the school's applicant pool originates. He sees the trend as a mix of the recovery in Michigan's economy and the contracting market for law jobs.

According to a recent report from the National Association for Law Placement, the overall employment rate for class of 2011 law school graduates is 85.6 percent, the lowest it has been since 1994. The association measures employment as of nine months after completing law school.




"Two phenomena here are converging. One is the employment situation, and the harsh reporting on the national stage about legal education. That, I think, is tied to a structural change (in the profession), and not a cyclical trend," Ackerman said.

The school also has been "very deliberate," he said, about maintaining class quality and academic achievement rates at the expense of class size. The median Law School Aptitude Test for the fall 2012 class was 156, and median GPA was 3.38, virtually unchanged since 2010.

Still, the two-year decline of nearly 50 students paying $27,000 per year each in tuition (although up to 40 percent receive some degree of financial aid) will have an impact on revenue over the three years of their enrollment, Ackerman said.

Some 67,957 people submitted more than 460,000 applications to law schools nationwide for the fall 2012 semester, compared with 78,800 applicants last year and 87,500 applicants for fall 2010 admission, according to data from the Law School Admissions Council.

LSAC director of communications Wendy Margolis said the primary reason is believed to be a weakening private-sector job market for recent law school graduates.

"The tenor of the recent articles about this (trend) is really frustrating," said Sarah Zearfoss, senior assistant dean for admissions, financial aid and career planning at UM's law school.

"I feel our students are still very enthusiastic and happy to be here, but they have made the decision in the midst of criticism -- as if friends and academic advisers wonder if they are crazy by choosing to be lawyers."

Michigan State University College of Law also admitted a slightly smaller class of 298 first-years starting Aug. 20, compared with 307 last fall. But the school bucked the national trend by climbing to a record 3,823 applicants, from 3,732 last year.

Charles Roboski, assistant dean for admissions and financial aid at MSU law, said the school has seen a recent bump in both its ranking on the annual Best Law Schools ranking by U.S. News & World Report, and a possibly related surge in out-of-state enrollment.

The school rose this year to No. 82 from No. 95 last year in the U.S. News ranking, and in-state residents have declined from around 63 percent in the early 2000s to less than 50 percent this year. Price may also be a factor, Roboski said, as top-tier schools' tuition continues to climb."

LOL

[TheThriller]

I always thought it was the Law School Attitude Test

[VUSisterRayVU]

Anyone think Yale or Harvard will fall down to 172?

Most definitely not.

[Real Madrid]

I don't think Y or H will fall, but I could see Columbia and especially NYU dropping a point with their huge classes. I think it's much more likely that we see their GPA medians drop, though.

[VUSisterRayVU]

I don't think Y or H will fall, but I could see Columbia and especially NYU dropping a point with their huge classes. I think it's much more likely that we see their GPA medians drop, though.

NYU's split dropped by one on both sides, I think.

[rayiner]

"The tenor of the recent articles about this (trend) is really frustrating," said Sarah Zearfoss, senior assistant dean for admissions, financial aid and career planning at UM's law school.

And Zearfoss continues to be clueless. She and Leiter should start a club.

[Ruxin1]

"The tenor of the recent articles about this (trend) is really frustrating," said Sarah Zearfoss, senior assistant dean for admissions, financial aid and career planning at UM's law school.

And Zearfoss continues to be clueless. She and Leiter should start a club.

What's Leiter's deal?

[iMisto]

"The tenor of the recent articles about this (trend) is really frustrating," said Sarah Zearfoss, senior assistant dean for admissions, financial aid and career planning at UM's law school.

And Zearfoss continues to be clueless. She and Leiter should start a club.

I've been doing a ton of research lately, yet I cannot understand why people keep drinking the Michigan kool-aid? I rather freeze in Ithaca for three years than enjoy the collegiality and unemployment of not being near a major market.

Is it really that bad??

[HarlandBassett]

"The tenor of the recent articles about this (trend) is really frustrating," said Sarah Zearfoss, senior assistant dean for admissions, financial aid and career planning at UM's law school.

And Zearfoss continues to be clueless. She and Leiter should start a club.

I've been doing a ton of research lately, yet I cannot understand why people keep drinking the Michigan kool-aid? I rather freeze in Ithaca for three years than enjoy the collegiality and unemployment of not being near a major market.

b/c they wanna be sheep farmers

http://abovethelaw.com/2012/04/now-that ... ep-farmer/

[moonman157]

I don't think Y or H will fall, but I could see Columbia and especially NYU dropping a point with their huge classes. I think it's much more likely that we see their GPA medians drop, though.

Please let Columbia's median drop