New US News Rankings 2023-2024 Forum

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

set aside empirical disputes about what you're saying, students can make suboptimal choices. I mean some people choose Harvard over YLS. People choose georgetown over michigan at cost because of "lay prestige". All of the arguments pro HLS people made about lay prestige are absolutely true - and this higher lay prestige is boosting Harvard's yield beyond what is warranted. in sum, cross-admit yield is one metric, but the best metric we have is outcomes.

I have been in biglaw for nearly 6 years and confirm that job prospects at top tier schools (say YHSCCN) are all very similar at least with respect to biglaw. Back when I was doing OCI, someone I know struck out from Stanford, a clsssmate of mine from Harvard struck out, and someone I know struck out from Chicago. Few more struck from each of Columbia and NYU. Didn't know anyone at Penn then. I had heard of many more OCI strikeouts at other T14 schools.

Impossible to really say which is better in terms of job prospects alone. If I have to parse these out, I'd resort to selectivity and YHS would then stand out, especially obviously Y.

Even aside from all that crap about lay prestige, let me just tell you. Yale, Harvard, and Stanford (or HYS or YHS whatever) used to be regarded as the best three law schools in this country for such a long time. Schools like Chicago, Columbia, and NYU had to offer scholarships to stay competitive, and schools like Penn, Michigan, and Virginia would yield-protect and reject applicants that they knew would either go to YHS or CCN on a scholarship. Interesting if all that's really no longer the case.

[Anonymous User]

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

If I had to guess, more probably choose Harvard over Chicago then the reverse, but it is simply not true to insinuate that there are not a sizable amount of people choosing Chicago over Harvard with equal costs of attendance. A lot of right-leaning fed soc people absolutely prefer Chicago over Harvard and pick accordingly. In a way, it is similar to Chicago's undergrad where there are a lot of really smart students who have their pick of other schools but are absolutely drawn to Chicago for reasons like the life of the mind, free speech, fed soc, etc... I view NYU and CLS similarly. More people given the choice probably pick CLS over NYU, but NYU's culture attracts a certain type of person that absolutely prefers NYU over CLS for reasons unique to NYU and its culture. I think NYU and CLS are peer schools and I also think Harvard and Chicago are peer schools.

Really? You think a sizeable number would choose Chicago over Harvard for the same cost of attendance? NYU and Columbia have always been peers, but Harvard and Chicago? Wow. Maybe times have really changed.

Anon you're immediately replying to. Yes, and I understand this was not always the case. I readily admit 10 years ago HLS was clearly above UChicago, but I think that is no longer the case. Just like Cravath was clearly above DPW and S&C but now I know tons of people who choose DPW or S&C over Cravath and no one things they're crazy.

[Sackboy]

Ya'll need to touch grass.

[Anonymous User]

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

If I had to guess, more probably choose Harvard over Chicago then the reverse, but it is simply not true to insinuate that there are not a sizable amount of people choosing Chicago over Harvard with equal costs of attendance. A lot of right-leaning fed soc people absolutely prefer Chicago over Harvard and pick accordingly. In a way, it is similar to Chicago's undergrad where there are a lot of really smart students who have their pick of other schools but are absolutely drawn to Chicago for reasons like the life of the mind, free speech, fed soc, etc... I view NYU and CLS similarly. More people given the choice probably pick CLS over NYU, but NYU's culture attracts a certain type of person that absolutely prefers NYU over CLS for reasons unique to NYU and its culture. I think NYU and CLS are peer schools and I also think Harvard and Chicago are peer schools.

Really? You think a sizeable number would choose Chicago over Harvard for the same cost of attendance? NYU and Columbia have always been peers, but Harvard and Chicago? Wow. Maybe times have really changed.

Anon you're immediately replying to. Yes, and I understand this was not always the case. I readily admit 10 years ago HLS was clearly above UChicago, but I think that is no longer the case. Just like Cravath was clearly above DPW and S&C but now I know tons of people who choose DPW or S&C over Cravath and no one things they're crazy.

Ok. Cravath was never clearly above DPW or S&C for as long as I remember. Well, from hiring standpoint, I don't care about the changes in the latest rankings unless they stay that way for some years. It's still YHS and the rest of t14 in the minds of most midlevels, seniors, and partners.

[Anonymous User]

Never forget HLS was literally the third choice for law school after SLS (where she went in the book) and Chicago. SC>YH, robber baron school supremacy confirmed.

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

If I had to guess, more probably choose Harvard over Chicago then the reverse, but it is simply not true to insinuate that there are not a sizable amount of people choosing Chicago over Harvard with equal costs of attendance. A lot of right-leaning fed soc people absolutely prefer Chicago over Harvard and pick accordingly. In a way, it is similar to Chicago's undergrad where there are a lot of really smart students who have their pick of other schools but are absolutely drawn to Chicago for reasons like the life of the mind, free speech, fed soc, etc... I view NYU and CLS similarly. More people given the choice probably pick CLS over NYU, but NYU's culture attracts a certain type of person that absolutely prefers NYU over CLS for reasons unique to NYU and its culture. I think NYU and CLS are peer schools and I also think Harvard and Chicago are peer schools.

A lot of people who actually want to learn law prefer Chicago.

[Anonymous User]

Ok. Cravath was never clearly above DPW or S&C for as long as I remember. Well, from hiring standpoint, I don't care about the changes in the latest rankings unless they stay that way for some years. It's still YHS and the rest of t14 in the minds of most midlevels, seniors, and partners.

fair enough, I think it's fair to say folks in this thread are likely ahead of the curve and are adjusting more quickly to recent stats. Practitioners especially are not keeping on top of this, the judiciary might be faster to adjust (particularly with clerk input into hiring). What was stated in this thread might be more predictive of what's going to be more solidified 5 years from now if the stats stay the same. Who knows, maybe chicago will go way down in clerkships as the juidiciary becomes a bit more liberal. But think if the stats stay the same for the next 5 years, it will be pretty undeniable that Chicago and HLS are peers, below SLS and YLS

[Anonymous User]

If I had to guess, more probably choose Harvard over Chicago then the reverse, but it is simply not true to insinuate that there are not a sizable amount of people choosing Chicago over Harvard with equal costs of attendance. A lot of right-leaning fed soc people absolutely prefer Chicago over Harvard and pick accordingly. In a way, it is similar to Chicago's undergrad where there are a lot of really smart students who have their pick of other schools but are absolutely drawn to Chicago for reasons like the life of the mind, free speech, fed soc, etc... I view NYU and CLS similarly. More people given the choice probably pick CLS over NYU, but NYU's culture attracts a certain type of person that absolutely prefers NYU over CLS for reasons unique to NYU and its culture. I think NYU and CLS are peer schools and I also think Harvard and Chicago are peer schools.

A lot of people who actually want to learn law prefer Chicago.

Yes, this. I grant that I choose Chicago $$$ over H. But in comparing my experience with friends at H and in talking with my professors at Chi who attended H and are familiar with the faculty output there, the "actually learn law" part is real. Look at the faculty output, particularly younger faculty, between the two schools. Look at the course offerings. When I clerked, we saw lots of soft, seminar heavy transcripts from H and discounted them.

[Anonymous User]

Ya'll need to touch grass.

Now that USNWR has fallen it’s up to TLS to determine the true ranking of schools.

[Anonymous User]

Never forget HLS was literally the third choice for law school after SLS (where she went in the book) and Chicago. SC>YH, robber baron school supremacy confirmed.

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

If I had to guess, more probably choose Harvard over Chicago then the reverse, but it is simply not true to insinuate that there are not a sizable amount of people choosing Chicago over Harvard with equal costs of attendance. A lot of right-leaning fed soc people absolutely prefer Chicago over Harvard and pick accordingly. In a way, it is similar to Chicago's undergrad where there are a lot of really smart students who have their pick of other schools but are absolutely drawn to Chicago for reasons like the life of the mind, free speech, fed soc, etc... I view NYU and CLS similarly. More people given the choice probably pick CLS over NYU, but NYU's culture attracts a certain type of person that absolutely prefers NYU over CLS for reasons unique to NYU and its culture. I think NYU and CLS are peer schools and I also think Harvard and Chicago are peer schools.

Lol, what? I went to UChicago undergrad and almost everyone I knew (like, at least 90%) of people went there because it was the only "elite" school they got into. I didn't know anyone who chose it over Stanford or non-Cornell Ivies.

[Anonymous User]

If Chicago continues to crush everyone else in clerkships then yes, within a few years it'll be the school of choice for the elite. Forget HLS, why pick Y/S and potentially limit yourself to only half of the judiciary?

[Anonymous User]

If Chicago continues to crush everyone else in clerkships then yes, within a few years it'll be the school of choice for the elite. Forget HLS, why pick Y/S and potentially limit yourself to only half of the judiciary?

Conservatives interested in elite litigation outcomes should take Chicago over every school besides YLS. Fed-Soc at YLS basically guarantees you a semi-feeder and grades hardly exist there. Conservative judges are not going to stop hiring from YLS.

[Anonymous User]

Times are a’changin’:

1) Now that USNWR has lost its stranglehold on law school rankings we must resort to popular perceptions of prestige - Harvard is the champ.

2) Now that Wachtell has lost its stranglehold on Profits Per Partner and fallen below Kirkland - Kirkland is the most prestigious.

You heard it here first.

[Anonymous User]

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

If I had to guess, more probably choose Harvard over Chicago then the reverse, but it is simply not true to insinuate that there are not a sizable amount of people choosing Chicago over Harvard with equal costs of attendance. A lot of right-leaning fed soc people absolutely prefer Chicago over Harvard and pick accordingly. In a way, it is similar to Chicago's undergrad where there are a lot of really smart students who have their pick of other schools but are absolutely drawn to Chicago for reasons like the life of the mind, free speech, fed soc, etc... I view NYU and CLS similarly. More people given the choice probably pick CLS over NYU, but NYU's culture attracts a certain type of person that absolutely prefers NYU over CLS for reasons unique to NYU and its culture. I think NYU and CLS are peer schools and I also think Harvard and Chicago are peer schools.

Lol, what? I went to UChicago undergrad and almost everyone I knew (like, at least 90%) of people went there because it was the only "elite" school they got into. I didn't know anyone who chose it over Stanford or non-Cornell Ivies.

If we're going to play the anecdote game I went to Chicago undergrad in the mid-2010s and basically everyone I knew got into equivalent schools. Did not know anyone who chose it over Yale, Harvard, or Stanford though. Did know someone who chose it over Princeton, but, personally, I think he was dumb to do that.

[Anonymous User]

If Chicago continues to crush everyone else in clerkships then yes, within a few years it'll be the school of choice for the elite. Forget HLS, why pick Y/S and potentially limit yourself to only half of the judiciary?

Conservatives interested in elite litigation outcomes should take Chicago over every school besides YLS. Fed-Soc at YLS basically guarantees you a semi-feeder and grades hardly exist there. Conservative judges are not going to stop hiring from YLS.

YLS is not feeding a third of the class anymore. Chicago has been the leader for the last two years of available data. I'm sure some conservative judges are still taking Yalies but it's clearly on the downswing.

[CondescendingLiberal]

The fact that people on here actually think Harvard is on par with Chicago and not YS shows how out of touch y'all are. Cravath is of course more prestigious than DPW, SullCrom, STB, Skadden btw. In terms of prestige, it's similar to Wachtell. In terms of actual firm quality and breadth of strong practice groups, Cravath is better.

[Anonymous User]

The fact that people on here actually think Harvard is on par with Chicago and not YS shows how out of touch y'all are. Cravath is of course more prestigious than DPW, SullCrom, STB, Skadden btw. In terms of prestige, it's similar to Wachtell. In terms of actual firm quality and breadth of strong practice groups, Cravath is better.

I agree that Harvard is not on par with Chicago

[ProbablyWaitListed]

I think this is maybe one of the greatest and most ridiculous threads I have seen in forum history. We're rapidly approaching bodybuilding.com "how many days are there in a week territory" territory but with more PRESTIGE

[urbancowboy]

Ya'll need to touch grass.

Now that USNWR has fallen it’s up to TLS to determine the true ranking of schools.

TLS be like

1. Yale
2. Stanford
Everything else: TTT

Same for Vault except

1. Wachtell
Everything else: TTT

[Anonymous User]

Didn't go to Chicago but my outsider opinion is that Chicago's rise can be attributed to the rise of fed soc/conservative judiciary and Will Baude's rise as the most prominent con law scholar of his age. If that reversed, harvard would once again overtake. Like if Will Baude took a job elsewhere today I wouldn't be surprised if Chicago dropped back down to Columbia level. But if Chicago attracts more professors who feed into clerkships, it will stay on Harvard's level or surpass it. Harvard is in a stable spot, Chicago's place as harvard's peer is relatively precarious.

[Anonymous User]

Look at the faculty output, particularly younger faculty, between the two schools. Look at the course offerings. When I clerked, we saw lots of soft, seminar heavy transcripts from H and discounted them.

I think chicago is on par with H, but there's a reason stephen sachs went to Harvard not Chicago.

[Anonymous User]

We have spent days and nearly 300 posts discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Go with christ

[Anonymous User]

Didn't go to Chicago but my outsider opinion is that Chicago's rise can be attributed to the rise of fed soc/conservative judiciary and Will Baude's rise as the most prominent con law scholar of his age. If that reversed, harvard would once again overtake. Like if Will Baude took a job elsewhere today I wouldn't be surprised if Chicago dropped back down to Columbia level. But if Chicago attracts more professors who feed into clerkships, it will stay on Harvard's level or surpass it. Harvard is in a stable spot, Chicago's place as harvard's peer is relatively precarious.

HLS has been Cravathesque coasting on accumulated prestige for a while now. There's really nothing concrete in the last decade or two that you can point to it being a rung above CLS, NYU, Penn, UVA etc. I don't see any reason to assume it'll go back up to steady top 3.

Agree that Chicago is helped by fedsoc clerkships but important to recognize that Chicago is only "conservative" relative to other law schools. The avg kid at Chicago is not a Young Republican, she's probably a Biden voter who is pro choice. The difference is that Chicago is willing to engage and actively place with conservative judges. Meanwhile the other historical clerkship schools are busy throwing tantrums.

[Anonymous User]

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

If I had to guess, more probably choose Harvard over Chicago then the reverse, but it is simply not true to insinuate that there are not a sizable amount of people choosing Chicago over Harvard with equal costs of attendance. A lot of right-leaning fed soc people absolutely prefer Chicago over Harvard and pick accordingly. In a way, it is similar to Chicago's undergrad where there are a lot of really smart students who have their pick of other schools but are absolutely drawn to Chicago for reasons like the life of the mind, free speech, fed soc, etc... I view NYU and CLS similarly. More people given the choice probably pick CLS over NYU, but NYU's culture attracts a certain type of person that absolutely prefers NYU over CLS for reasons unique to NYU and its culture. I think NYU and CLS are peer schools and I also think Harvard and Chicago are peer schools.

Lol, what? I went to UChicago undergrad and almost everyone I knew (like, at least 90%) of people went there because it was the only "elite" school they got into. I didn't know anyone who chose it over Stanford or non-Cornell Ivies.

I assume this is trolling, but on the slim chance that it’s not, that’s wildly out of step with current admissions dynamics. A very large proportion of the class at Chicago applies ED, which necessarily implies that it’s their first choice. And of those that attend after getting in RD, the vast majority get into other elite schools, as the bar to get into Chicago RD is extremely high (I think the rate is 1% or something?). This is reflected in student body strength—nowadays Chicago statistically has a stronger class than all of the Ivies. The same dynamics exist at all of the other elite schools, this isn’t unique to Chicago.

[Anonymous User]

Look at the faculty output, particularly younger faculty, between the two schools. Look at the course offerings. When I clerked, we saw lots of soft, seminar heavy transcripts from H and discounted them.

I think chicago is on par with H, but there's a reason stephen sachs went to Harvard not Chicago.

You could also ask this about most of Chicago’s faculty too, of course. But also in reality a lot of faculty hiring is about personal stuff—is on information and belief (by which I mean rumor), a spousal hire issue was the driving factor for Sachs, plus he’s from the Northeast and he’s a Harvard grad. (Likewise Baude is probably at Chicago largely because his wife teaches there, he’s from the Midwest, and he’s a Chicago grad.)

[Anonymous User]

Didn't go to Chicago but my outsider opinion is that Chicago's rise can be attributed to the rise of fed soc/conservative judiciary and Will Baude's rise as the most prominent con law scholar of his age. If that reversed, harvard would once again overtake. Like if Will Baude took a job elsewhere today I wouldn't be surprised if Chicago dropped back down to Columbia level. But if Chicago attracts more professors who feed into clerkships, it will stay on Harvard's level or surpass it. Harvard is in a stable spot, Chicago's place as harvard's peer is relatively precarious.

Chicago and Harvard have comparable faculties in citation count, but Chicago’s big strength is in private law, not con law

https://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/lei ... -2021.html

I think Chicago still has a spot open for a second originalist scholar they’ve tried to hire Sachs and Jud Campbell for (Sachs chose HLS, Campbell chose SLS over Chicago and HLS). It’ll be interesting to see who gets it.