Cornell (Half) vs. StJohn's (Full) Forum

[Dcc617]

Please retake and reapply.

[TheRealSantaClaus]

.

[Glasseyes]

...another qualm I have is that the incoming students there have a GPA/LSAT range that is way below mine, so Idk if I'll be learning with peers, but I figure either that means I'll stand out, or if they are smarter than their numbers make them look then I will have intellectual peers...

Address the elephant in the room ASAP and you won't have any trouble. Just post your gpa/lsat on linkedin and pointedly bring it up in conversation several times during your first semester, and mention your concerns. Other law students will understand and relate to your clear and rational thought process.

Also mention your Cornell acceptance.

[cavalier1138]

I'm not sure if this was already linked, but...

http://abovethelaw.com/2015/06/this-is- ... tatistics/

Also, if the library is important to you, you should reapply to Cooley. That's been their selling point for some time now.

[dclawyerhere]

This has to be the most entertaining posting I have ever read.

First things first, OP, you lack the critical reasoning skills and common sense required to practice law. Therefore, I actually encourage you to find a new profession, preferably helping others (there are many!), seeing as you are public-minded.

Secondly, to answer the question you've asked 1,000 times throughout this thread, "but why?" should you choose Cornell University over Cardozo/St. John's.

I will start by saying that you tell us that you are committed to "public interest" now, but do you even know what "public interest" is? Granted, I practice in DC, but to the best of my knowledge, the "public interest" jobs you are so fixated on are extremely competitive. In fact, many of them are more competitive than private sector jobs. For example, at most of the top non-profits here in DC, you will absolutely need an ivy league law degree to get your foot in the door (as an attorney). You will sound like a bumbling fool trying to explain why you thought Cornell didn't place as well in "public interest" jobs as St. John's University. Then again, you won't need to because they won't bother interviewing you!

Next, Cornell has offered you a large sum of money, leaving a slight delta between your full-ride and an ivy league degree, which will inevitably pay for itself over the course of your career. This delta will most likely pay for itself on the day that you mail out your first resume - but what do I know, maybe there is someone out there who has a vendetta against Cornell because they watched too many episodes of The Office.

In addition, practicing law is essentially about building your brand. What can you bring to the table, or "what benefits do I reap by employing you at my organization?" As unfortunate as this may be, the reality is that any client (whether a non-profit, indigent defendant, multi-billion dollar corporation, or Aunt Sally's trust) would rather be represented by a Cornell lawyer, than a St. John's lawyer. Now, maybe 20 years down the road after you've won thousands of cases and fought tooth and nail to develop your reputation as a killer "public interest" attorney, having Cornell on your resume will matter less. But early on, there is zero doubt that simply listing Cornell on your resume will give you a 100% guaranteed leg up on graduates from St. John's or Cardozo.

Finally, young grasshopper, you must realize that people change jobs. This happens for a number of reasons, but typically it involves having children, moving across the country to care for your wife's ailing aunt, learning that your daughter wants to attend NYU for a degree in fashion marketing, or you deciding that the law sucks so you want something else in life. Regardless, having a degree from Cornell (even if you don't get the grades) will make it far easier to transition between jobs (legal or otherwise) down the road. I am not sure why you refuse to see the value of the aforementioned flexibility, but it strikes me as slightly asinine.

[Mikey]

maybe there is someone out there who has a vendetta against Cornell because they watched too many episodes of The Office.

[WinterComing]

This has to be the most entertaining posting I have ever read.

First things first, OP, you lack the critical reasoning skills and common sense required to practice law. Therefore, I actually encourage you to find a new profession, preferably helping others (there are many!), seeing as you are public-minded.

Secondly, to answer the question you've asked 1,000 times throughout this thread, "but why?" should you choose Cornell University over Cardozo/St. John's.

I will start by saying that you tell us that you are committed to "public interest" now, but do you even know what "public interest" is? Granted, I practice in DC, but to the best of my knowledge, the "public interest" jobs you are so fixated on are extremely competitive. In fact, many of them are more competitive than private sector jobs. For example, at most of the top non-profits here in DC, you will absolutely need an ivy league law degree to get your foot in the door (as an attorney). You will sound like a bumbling fool trying to explain why you thought Cornell didn't place as well in "public interest" jobs as St. John's University. Then again, you won't need to because they won't bother interviewing you!

Next, Cornell has offered you a large sum of money, leaving a slight delta between your full-ride and an ivy league degree, which will inevitably pay for itself over the course of your career. This delta will most likely pay for itself on the day that you mail out your first resume - but what do I know, maybe there is someone out there who has a vendetta against Cornell because they watched too many episodes of The Office.

In addition, practicing law is essentially about building your brand. What can you bring to the table, or "what benefits do I reap by employing you at my organization?" As unfortunate as this may be, the reality is that any client (whether a non-profit, indigent defendant, multi-billion dollar corporation, or Aunt Sally's trust) would rather be represented by a Cornell lawyer, than a St. John's lawyer. Now, maybe 20 years down the road after you've won thousands of cases and fought tooth and nail to develop your reputation as a killer "public interest" attorney, having Cornell on your resume will matter less. But early on, there is zero doubt that simply listing Cornell on your resume will give you a 100% guaranteed leg up on graduates from St. John's or Cardozo.

Finally, young grasshopper, you must realize that people change jobs. This happens for a number of reasons, but typically it involves having children, moving across the country to care for your wife's ailing aunt, learning that your daughter wants to attend NYU for a degree in fashion marketing, or you deciding that the law sucks so you want something else in life. Regardless, having a degree from Cornell (even if you don't get the grades) will make it far easier to transition between jobs (legal or otherwise) down the road. I am not sure why you refuse to see the value of the aforementioned flexibility, but it strikes me as slightly asinine.

This is the best articulation yet of why OP should go to Cornell. There is a 100 percent chance that OP will ignore your advice.

OP, have you missed the deposit deadlines at any of these schools?

[4for44]

Well, listen. Cornell is a damn good school. Damn good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEGy_asxL2U

Also, in order to add something substantive, think about this scene if Travolta had said St. Johns (but I got into Cornell!)...

[Glasseyes]

This is the best articulation yet of why OP should go to Cornell. There is a 100 percent chance that OP will ignore your advice.

+1 on both points.

Also, now that biglaw pays 180k, OP has 20,000 more reasons to choose Cornell.

[AntsInMyEyesJohnson]

But early on, there is zero doubt that simply listing Cornell on your resume will give you a 100% guaranteed leg up on graduates from St. John's or Cardozo.

This is true in any facet of the legal field, OP. Despite your weird conviction that Cardozo and SJU are better for PI placement, Cornell will wipe the floor with these two when it comes to trying to get PI, just as it will with getting any other job as a lawyer -- and any job outside of the law, for that matter.

[Mikey]

OP, have you decided?

[Dcc617]

Please retake and reapply.

[pterodactyls]

think about this scene if Travolta had said St. Johns (but I got into Cornell!)...

One of my favorite posts in this thread

[silverdoe91]

This has to be the most entertaining posting I have ever read.

First things first, OP, you lack the critical reasoning skills and common sense required to practice law. Therefore, I actually encourage you to find a new profession, preferably helping others (there are many!), seeing as you are public-minded.

Secondly, to answer the question you've asked 1,000 times throughout this thread, "but why?" should you choose Cornell University over Cardozo/St. John's.

I will start by saying that you tell us that you are committed to "public interest" now, but do you even know what "public interest" is? Granted, I practice in DC, but to the best of my knowledge, the "public interest" jobs you are so fixated on are extremely competitive. In fact, many of them are more competitive than private sector jobs. For example, at most of the top non-profits here in DC, you will absolutely need an ivy league law degree to get your foot in the door (as an attorney). You will sound like a bumbling fool trying to explain why you thought Cornell didn't place as well in "public interest" jobs as St. John's University. Then again, you won't need to because they won't bother interviewing you!

Next, Cornell has offered you a large sum of money, leaving a slight delta between your full-ride and an ivy league degree, which will inevitably pay for itself over the course of your career. This delta will most likely pay for itself on the day that you mail out your first resume - but what do I know, maybe there is someone out there who has a vendetta against Cornell because they watched too many episodes of The Office.

In addition, practicing law is essentially about building your brand. What can you bring to the table, or "what benefits do I reap by employing you at my organization?" As unfortunate as this may be, the reality is that any client (whether a non-profit, indigent defendant, multi-billion dollar corporation, or Aunt Sally's trust) would rather be represented by a Cornell lawyer, than a St. John's lawyer. Now, maybe 20 years down the road after you've won thousands of cases and fought tooth and nail to develop your reputation as a killer "public interest" attorney, having Cornell on your resume will matter less. But early on, there is zero doubt that simply listing Cornell on your resume will give you a 100% guaranteed leg up on graduates from St. John's or Cardozo.

Finally, young grasshopper, you must realize that people change jobs. This happens for a number of reasons, but typically it involves having children, moving across the country to care for your wife's ailing aunt, learning that your daughter wants to attend NYU for a degree in fashion marketing, or you deciding that the law sucks so you want something else in life. Regardless, having a degree from Cornell (even if you don't get the grades) will make it far easier to transition between jobs (legal or otherwise) down the road. I am not sure why you refuse to see the value of the aforementioned flexibility, but it strikes me as slightly asinine.

Thanks for taking out your time to write this out and give me your advice. I thought many parts of it were insightful while others were entertaining.

However, you are one of many others who have given me advice, and I try to take everyone's advice into consideration. I know many attorneys who did not go to Ivy League Law schools who are employed in top positions whether private or public. All of them have told me that unless my heart is definitely set on big law, there's no point in taking on that much debt when I have full rides on the table, especially when my goal is to practice public interest law. Public interest law can be practiced in many different capacities, including private law firms that do public interest work but would not be covered by Cornell's LRAP. I do not want to be stuck in one type of career for ten years of my life. That is why I'd rather not have the burden of loans to hold me back from taking whatever jobs I see fit. You're absolutely right--who knows, maybe one day in the future I will want to leave the legal field behind altogether. Heck, maybe I'd even want to leave it while I'm still IN law school. But making that career switch in life would be a LOT easier if I didn't have a huge burden of debt to pay back. At least I think so.

Do I want to turn down an Ivy, with a much better reputation, campus, library and intellectual peers for a school that has a pretty shitty library, people who might not be my intellectual peers, and a lack of a "recognizable brand"? Of course not. But when you consider my goals (public interest) I don't see why I should put myself in so much debt for essentially the same job prospects in the field that I'm aiming for (NYC public interest groups typically have a lot of representation from Cardozo and even CUNY. I figure if I have a full ride from Cardozo it is definitely a step up from CUNY bc it will at least allow me to get jobs outside of public interest if I ever needed to.)

But then again, if all else fails, and I really do come crashing down after my stint at Cardozo and end up jobless (at least I won't have debt!) and I figure I can always go get an LLM from some fancy school to make up for it. Columbia has an LLM program that's pretty broad and the cost overall would be less than going to Cornell for 3 years. Idk how realistic that plan is, and what the employment rates are for those getting LLM's, but if anyone has any insight on that that would be greatly appreciated!

[cavalier1138]

Thanks for taking out your time to write this out and give me your advice. I thought many parts of it were insightful while others were entertaining.

However, you are one of many others who have given me advice, and I try to take everyone's advice into consideration. I know many attorneys who did not go to Ivy League Law schools who are employed in top positions whether private or public. All of them have told me that unless my heart is definitely set on big law, there's no point in taking on that much debt when I have full rides on the table, especially when my goal is to practice public interest law. Public interest law can be practiced in many different capacities, including private law firms that do public interest work but would not be covered by Cornell's LRAP. I do not want to be stuck in one type of career for ten years of my life. That is why I'd rather not have the burden of loans to hold me back from taking whatever jobs I see fit. You're absolutely right--who knows, maybe one day in the future I will want to leave the legal field behind altogether. Heck, maybe I'd even want to leave it while I'm still IN law school. But making that career switch in life would be a LOT easier if I didn't have a huge burden of debt to pay back. At least I think so.

Do I want to turn down an Ivy, with a much better reputation, campus, library and intellectual peers for a school that has a pretty shitty building/ library, people who might not be my intellectual peers, and a lack of a "recognizable brand"? Of course not. But when you consider my goals (public interest) I don't see why I should put myself in so much debt for essentially the same job prospects in the field that I'm aiming for (NYC public interest groups typically have a lot of representation from Cardozo and even CUNY. I figure if I have a full ride from Cardozo it is definitely a step up from CUNY bc it will at least allow me to get jobs outside of public interest if I ever needed to.)

But then again, if all else fails, and I really do come crashing down after my stint at Cardozo and end up jobless (at least I won't have debt!) and I figure I can always go get an LLM from some fancy school to make up for it. Columbia has an LLM program that's pretty broad and the cost overall would be less than going to Cornell for 3 years. Idk how realistic that plan is, and what the employment rates are for those getting LLM's, but if anyone has any insight on that that would be greatly appreciated!

If you can find me a single attorney who recommends getting a generalized LLM to "make up for" their lower-tier JD, I'd love to see them. Hell, if you can find me a single attorney who recommends getting a generalized LLM, that'd be a feat in and of itself.

But seriously, good luck. If you still believe that Cornell and Cardozo have "essentially the same job prospects" in NYC public interest law, there is absolutely nothing that's going to change your mind on that.

[L’Étranger]

Haven't read most of the thread but thinking troll.

Cornell even at full tuition beats T3 at full scholarship. This is dumb.

[Danny Mothers]

Haven't read most of the thread but thinking troll.

Cornell even at full tuition beats T3 at full scholarship. This is dumb.

And now he's going to fall back on an LLM from Columbia. This is definitely flame. Even if Columbia's LLMs were intended for domestic applicants, why would a Dozo burnout get admitted?

[jnwa]

Haven't read most of the thread but thinking troll.

Cornell even at full tuition beats T3 at full scholarship. This is dumb.

And now he's going to fall back on an LLM from Columbia. This is definitely flame. Even if Columbia's LLMs were intended for domestic applicants, why would a Dozo burnout get admitted?

Full ride +stipend to Cooley --->Yale LLM--->180k Profit

[silverdoe91]

While working at a corporate law firm, I've seen attorneys working there who went to lower tiered law schools and then got LLMs at more prestigious universities so I figured corporate law firms don't really care when you get the degree from a top law school as long as it's on your resume.

[silverdoe91]

Haven't read most of the thread but thinking troll.

Cornell even at full tuition beats T3 at full scholarship. This is dumb.

And now he's going to fall back on an LLM from Columbia. This is definitely flame. Even if Columbia's LLMs were intended for domestic applicants, why would a Dozo burnout get admitted?

Full ride +stipend to Cooley --->Yale LLM--->180k Profit

Lol, I don't want to make 180k in profit. I don't think you read my previous posts, but I think I made it pretty clear that I am not motivated by profits, but instead by fulfilling work. Based on my professional experience, I've found that public interest law is most fulfilling for me, and corporate is the least.

[jnwa]

While working at a corporate law firm, I've seen attorneys working there who went to lower tiered law schools and then got LLMs at more prestigious universities so I figured corporate law firms don't really care when you get the degree from a top law school as long as it's on your resume.

This goes against everything ive ever heard. Prestige is cool in and of itself but the other half of the equation is that law school is graded on a curve and i can assure you the class quality at Cornell is significantly higher than the class quality at St Johns. This isnt to say that St Johns grads are dumb but the 75th percentile LSAT there is a 159. If you finished in the top 25% there then congrats you beat a bunch of people who would probably not even be accepted into Cornell. Thats partly why firms are more likely to go deeper into the class at higher ranked schools and no amount of LLM'ing changes that...unless it tax. Prestige whoring still plays a role though

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think LLMs aren't that hard to get into - in part because they're cash cows for universities and are not very helpful for American JDs who want to practice.

OP, practicing lawyers rarely have LLMs unless it's in tax. For most actual practice fields, LLMs are not required and not very helpful. They allow people with foreign law degrees to sit for the bar in the US. They can serve a semi-useful purpose for getting into legal academia (I think this is largely being supplanted by the PhD, but is maybe still possible). But someone who won't hire you because you have a Cardozo JD isn't going to be more inclined to hire you because you put another school's LLM on top of it - LLMs just rarely offer any practical value.

It's also my understanding that you really really rarely (if ever) get money for an LLM program. So you'd be saving money going to Cardozo but then spending the money you might have spent on Cornell to get the LLM, which doesn't make much sense to me.

I don't think your assumption about LLMs in firms is correct. Are those LLMs all in tax? I think they're likely to be. Getting hired for a LLM in tax is very different from getting hired with any other kind of LLM. Unless you want to do tax law, an LLM isn't going to make you more attractive to biglaw firms. Also those people may well have had credentials to get hired at the firm even without the LLM (like being at the very top of their class).

I actually get your reasoning about going to Cardozo, and it's been clear all along that you really don't want to be in Ithaca. I think you will be limiting your options by going to Cardozo, but in the end that's your decision to make.

[silverdoe91]

While working at a corporate law firm, I've seen attorneys working there who went to lower tiered law schools and then got LLMs at more prestigious universities so I figured corporate law firms don't really care when you get the degree from a top law school as long as it's on your resume.

This goes against everything ive ever heard. Prestige is cool in and of itself but the other half of the equation is that law school is graded on a curve and i can assure you the class quality at Cornell is significantly higher than the class quality at St Johns. This isnt to say that St Johns grads are dumb but the 75th percentile LSAT there is a 159. If you finished in the top 25% there then congrats you beat a bunch of people who would probably not even be accepted into Cornell. Thats partly why firms are more likely to go deeper into the class at higher ranked schools and no amount of LLM'ing changes that...unless it tax. Prestige whoring still plays a role though

Yeah, I know, but how frequently does "prestige whoring" occur outside of big law? Like I mentioned before, that's not really what I'm aiming for.

[silverdoe91]

I think LLMs aren't that hard to get into - in part because they're cash cows for universities and are not very helpful for American JDs who want to practice.

OP, practicing lawyers rarely have LLMs unless it's in tax. For most actual practice fields, LLMs are not required and not very helpful. They allow people with foreign law degrees to sit for the bar in the US. They can serve a semi-useful purpose for getting into legal academia (I think this is largely being supplanted by the PhD, but is maybe still possible). But someone who won't hire you because you have a Cardozo JD isn't going to be more inclined to hire you because you put another school's LLM on top of it - LLMs just rarely offer any practical value.

It's also my understanding that you really really rarely (if ever) get money for an LLM program. So you'd be saving money going to Cardozo but then spending the money you might have spent on Cornell to get the LLM, which doesn't make much sense to me.

I don't think your assumption about LLMs in firms is correct. Are those LLMs all in tax? I think they're likely to be. Getting hired for a LLM in tax is very different from getting hired with any other kind of LLM. Unless you want to do tax law, an LLM isn't going to make you more attractive to biglaw firms. Also those people may well have had credentials to get hired at the firm even without the LLM (like being at the very top of their class).

I actually get your reasoning about going to Cardozo, and it's been clear all along that you really don't want to be in Ithaca. I think you will be limiting your options by going to Cardozo, but in the end that's your decision to make.

Ithaca's not bad. Like I said, it seemed like a nice town when I went to visit. But I don't want to pay 135k to put myself in a bubble where I don't get to network and see the reality of NYC law firms. Of course bubbles are fun because they shield you to the reality of the world outside, but when I get out I don't want to be at a severe disadvantage because I didn't get enough internship or clinical experience working with real clients in the field of law I desire or because I have huge loans looming behind me that decide my career options for me.

Yes, the LRAP does help, but it is still a limited amount of jobs that qualify for the LRAP, and I just don't know if I will stick it out in government & nonprofits for 10 years; what if I want to go work for a union? That's not covered by the LRAP but will most probably have a very low salary, on which paying back loans (even 10%) would be a burden. The LRAP also pretty much gets obsolete if you get married and factor your partner's income into the equation. I don't want to work on a public interest salary and not be able to afford amenities like a car, house, or support for my children because I have enormous loans to pay. It just doesn't see logical to me.

[elterrible78]

Thanks for taking out your time to write this out and give me your advice. I thought many parts of it were insightful while others were entertaining.

Were there any parts that were both insightful AND entertaining? Would you be willing to draw a venn diagram?

This thread has some legs, doesn't it, though?