New US News Rankings 2023-2024 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Looking at lay prestige you wouldn't know that YLS is better than HLS. Elle Woods goes to Harvard.

Never forget HLS was literally the third choice for law school after SLS (where she went in the book) and Chicago. SC>YH, robber baron school supremacy confirmed.

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

Tiktok Law kids have literally gone insane lol. As a Harvard alum (the real kind), I’m embarrassed by our degree mill law school.

[Anonymous User]

Looking at lay prestige you wouldn't know that YLS is better than HLS. Elle Woods goes to Harvard.

Never forget HLS was literally the third choice for law school after SLS (where she went in the book) and Chicago. SC>YH, robber baron school supremacy confirmed.

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

[Anonymous User]

The people in this thread arguing that Chicago is more elite than Harvard are in the same boat as those pushing Cravath as more prestigious than Wachtell: deliberately trolling or completely out of touch with reality.

HLS kids’ new trick… analogizing to Wachtell…. No, a school that consistently has an acceptance rate around 15% is not elite. Stop it.

[Anonymous User]

Looking at lay prestige you wouldn't know that YLS is better than HLS. Elle Woods goes to Harvard.

Never forget HLS was literally the third choice for law school after SLS (where she went in the book) and Chicago. SC>YH, robber baron school supremacy confirmed.

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

[Anonymous User]

Looking at lay prestige you wouldn't know that YLS is better than HLS. Elle Woods goes to Harvard.

Never forget HLS was literally the third choice for law school after SLS (where she went in the book) and Chicago. SC>YH, robber baron school supremacy confirmed.

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Such a good point

[Anonymous User]

The people in this thread arguing that Chicago is more elite than Harvard are in the same boat as those pushing Cravath as more prestigious than Wachtell: deliberately trolling or completely out of touch with reality.

HLS kids’ new trick… analogizing to Wachtell…. No, a school that consistently has an acceptance rate around 15% is not elite. Stop it.

Law school prestige (lay or otherwise) doesn’t come from admissions selectively, it comes from the successful outcomes of students who graduate from the school. And prestige certainly isn’t coming from the academic output of profs.

Also, given the large class size of Harvard, pound for pound it is more selective than Yale. If Yale had 550 students accepting offers they could never hold down an 8% rate.

[Anonymous User]

I think it's fair to say that the more "specialized" you get, the less lay prestige is likely to matter in whatever your day-to-day life is. And the more time you spend at a law firm, the more "specialized" your day-to-day life becomes.

Cravath has more lay prestige than, say, DPW.
HLS has more lay prestige than Chicago.

Within the more specialized group of people you are likely to deal with, I think many would be like "HLS isn't particularly better than Chicago -- really, they're like, at par." But in the world at large people are wowed by HLS.

Meanwhile, specialized people are likely to be like "Cravath isn't better than DPW -- it's over the hump and if anything it's probably worse." And in the world at large, people are like "What's Cravath? What's DPW?".

The category of people who think HLS > Chicago is massive and will probably always be around (although they become less relevant to your day-to-day life as you advance as a lawyer, especially in a profesional sense).

The category of people who think Cravath > other V10s (namely, people who are somewhat involved in legal industry but also aren't the actual in-the-weeds people you are likely to actually care about..boomer judges or whatever): like, almost no one. And shrinking by the day.

None of this is true. People in New York City with tangential connections to the financial or legal industries are familiar with Cravath in a way they are not with other firms ("Oh Cravath, yeah, that's a really top firm" v. "Uh, I think I've heard of Davis Polk"). To be clear, I don't think the "on-paper" gap between these firms is very big. I think the difference between Yale and Columbia is bigger than the difference between Cravath/Wachtell and Skadden, for example. But when I was in law school, everyone reacted to Cravath differently than they did to firms like SullCrom or Skadden (including people going to those very firms). Whether you like it or not, prestige is huge in the legal world, and Cravath's reputation matters. But tell you what, we can reconvene in 10 years and see if your predictions of Cravath's ever-imminent decline come true.

The difference is this. I, who was a median at HLS, interviewed with Cravath during OCI several years ago, but didn't even include Wachtell in my bidlist because I knew I had literally 0% shot. Given its small size, Wachtell is much more selective than Cravath. It's similar to how YLS is more selective than HLS. Wachtell has always been the most profitable law firm in the world as well. Their profits per partner figures have always been the highest. With such profitability, they can afford to pay its associates bonuses that are 50~100% of their base salary. They work on the biggest deals. As an M&A lawyer, if there's one firm I wish I had worked at even if that means re-doing 1L, that's Wachtell. I never and ever thought of Cravath or any other firm that way.

You cucked yourself on Wachtell by not even applying bro, believe in yourself

You simply can't get Wachtell with median grades from HLS. I saw plenty of my classmates with median grades getting offers from Cravath however. That was the case nearly ten years ago when I was in law school, and I'm sure things aren't so different now. Cravath is no different from other top tier NY firms such as SulCrom, DPW, and STB. Wachtell doesn't accept laterals except under rare circumstances.

[Anonymous User]

Also, given the large class size of Harvard, pound for pound it is more selective than Yale. If Yale had 550 students accepting offers they could never hold down an 8% rate.

= If Harvard were more selective then it would be more selective. If Yale were less selective then it would be less selective.

Very insightful.

[Anonymous User]

Law school prestige (lay or otherwise) doesn’t come from admissions selectively, it comes from the successful outcomes of students who graduate from the school. And prestige certainly isn’t coming from the academic output of profs.

Also, given the large class size of Harvard, pound for pound it is more selective than Yale. If Yale had 550 students accepting offers they could never hold down an 8% rate.

right...but it doesn't aim to fill 550 seats. At the end of the day, selectivity is obviously relevant in determining the "value" of the average person who comes from school x. In evaluating the "ranking" of a school we do look at averages

Your basic point just leads to the conclusion that a top performer will do well at HLS or YLS. That's absolutely true. But ranking doesn't just look at the best of the various schools, it looks at the average and how we should view the average student at school x

[Anonymous User]

The people in this thread arguing that Chicago is more elite than Harvard are in the same boat as those pushing Cravath as more prestigious than Wachtell: deliberately trolling or completely out of touch with reality.

HLS kids’ new trick… analogizing to Wachtell…. No, a school that consistently has an acceptance rate around 15% is not elite. Stop it.

This is dumb, but leaning into the analogy, Wachtell has more in common with Harvard than Cravath. Cravath would be akin to Cornell—a perfectly fine firm/school but not materially different from anywhere else in the V10/T14. Yale would be more comparable to Susman Godfrey.

[Anonymous User]

Also, given the large class size of Harvard, pound for pound it is more selective than Yale. If Yale had 550 students accepting offers they could never hold down an 8% rate.

I genuinely think YLS could still be more selective if you increased it to HLS' size; the outcomes are just too good. The gap between SLS and HLS might close (though having California on lock is a massive strategic advantage that no one discusses here--SLS is inarguably the best law school for over a thousand miles, HLS has a superior competitor a couple hours down I-95).

[Anonymous User]

The people in this thread arguing that Chicago is more elite than Harvard are in the same boat as those pushing Cravath as more prestigious than Wachtell: deliberately trolling or completely out of touch with reality.

HLS kids’ new trick… analogizing to Wachtell…. No, a school that consistently has an acceptance rate around 15% is not elite. Stop it.

This is dumb, but leaning into the analogy, Wachtell has more in common with Harvard than Cravath. Cravath would be akin to Cornell—a perfectly fine firm/school but not materially different from anywhere else in the V10/T14. Yale would be more comparable to Susman Godfrey.

“Oh, won’t somebody please think about the boutiques?!”

[Anonymous User]

The people in this thread arguing that Chicago is more elite than Harvard are in the same boat as those pushing Cravath as more prestigious than Wachtell: deliberately trolling or completely out of touch with reality.

HLS kids’ new trick… analogizing to Wachtell…. No, a school that consistently has an acceptance rate around 15% is not elite. Stop it.

I think I specifically analogized HLS to Cravath and YLS to Wachtell in my earlier post when I was trying to show the difference in selectivity between Cravath and Wachtell. I don't know much about lit boutiques and don't care at all tbh.

HLS's acceptance rate has been around 10% for the last couple of years if I recall correctly.

The statement made was that those people that think Chicago is better than HLS just based on the latest US News rankings are like those people that think Cravath is better than Wachtell just based on the latest Vault rankings. The point of this analogy is to show how dumb those people that rely on rankings are. When someone makes an analogy, you need to try to understand what the analogy is trying to show. Maybe you just can't really read.

These rankings keep getting updated to draw attention and appear relevant, but we all know how firms and schools stack up in reality. Regardless of what these dumb rankings indicate, when given the choice, nobody would choose Chicago over Harvard for the same price and nobody wanting to pursue corporate/M&A would choose Cravath over Wachtell.

[Anonymous User]

The people in this thread arguing that Chicago is more elite than Harvard are in the same boat as those pushing Cravath as more prestigious than Wachtell: deliberately trolling or completely out of touch with reality.

HLS kids’ new trick… analogizing to Wachtell…. No, a school that consistently has an acceptance rate around 15% is not elite. Stop it.

Law school prestige (lay or otherwise) doesn’t come from admissions selectively, it comes from the successful outcomes of students who graduate from the school. And prestige certainly isn’t coming from the academic output of profs.

Also, given the large class size of Harvard, pound for pound it is more selective than Yale. If Yale had 550 students accepting offers they could never hold down an 8% rate.

Says enough about HLS student quality jesus

[Anonymous User]

There seems to be one camp ITT focused on “lay prestige,” and another on selectivity; but in the context of American elite institutions, the two often have very little correlation. My undergraduate college has a less than 7% acceptance rate, but the “less selective” Harvard law school has considerably more name recognition and would sound more impressive to nearly anyone outside of academia and other fields that cater specifically to elite schools. The same of course is true of many other objects of cultural fascination and prestige: something being well-known is rarely ever an indication of its selectivity. Most Americans for example cannot name the premier social clubs or IPSL/prep schools in New York or DC.

[Anonymous User]

Looking at lay prestige you wouldn't know that YLS is better than HLS. Elle Woods goes to Harvard.

Never forget HLS was literally the third choice for law school after SLS (where she went in the book) and Chicago. SC>YH, robber baron school supremacy confirmed.

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

[Anonymous User]

Looking at lay prestige you wouldn't know that YLS is better than HLS. Elle Woods goes to Harvard.

Never forget HLS was literally the third choice for law school after SLS (where she went in the book) and Chicago. SC>YH, robber baron school supremacy confirmed.

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

^this except HLS is just a low tier harvard school, above extension, Ed, and slightly above Kennedy, below or far below everyone else. But they say Harvard and lay prestige more than any of them.

[Anonymous User]

Looking at lay prestige you wouldn't know that YLS is better than HLS. Elle Woods goes to Harvard.

Never forget HLS was literally the third choice for law school after SLS (where she went in the book) and Chicago. SC>YH, robber baron school supremacy confirmed.

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

If I had to guess, more probably choose Harvard over Chicago then the reverse, but it is simply not true to insinuate that there are not a sizable amount of people choosing Chicago over Harvard with equal costs of attendance. A lot of right-leaning fed soc people absolutely prefer Chicago over Harvard and pick accordingly. In a way, it is similar to Chicago's undergrad where there are a lot of really smart students who have their pick of other schools but are absolutely drawn to Chicago for reasons like the life of the mind, free speech, fed soc, etc... I view NYU and CLS similarly. More people given the choice probably pick CLS over NYU, but NYU's culture attracts a certain type of person that absolutely prefers NYU over CLS for reasons unique to NYU and its culture. I think NYU and CLS are peer schools and I also think Harvard and Chicago are peer schools.

[Anonymous User]

Looking at lay prestige you wouldn't know that YLS is better than HLS. Elle Woods goes to Harvard.

Never forget HLS was literally the third choice for law school after SLS (where she went in the book) and Chicago. SC>YH, robber baron school supremacy confirmed.

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

People don’t choose Harvard Law, they pay premium for the name Harvard, which is built upon the exclusivity and prestige of the College, b school and med school, particularly the college.

Also by your logic, HLS is not peer schools with YLS and even SLS.

Also, that logic is debatable. Two schools are also peer schools if they admit largely the same group of people, which places H in the group with CCN than YS.

[Anonymous User]

Looking at lay prestige you wouldn't know that YLS is better than HLS. Elle Woods goes to Harvard.

Never forget HLS was literally the third choice for law school after SLS (where she went in the book) and Chicago. SC>YH, robber baron school supremacy confirmed.

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

People don’t choose Harvard Law, they pay premium for the name Harvard, which is built upon the exclusivity and prestige of the College, b school and med school, particularly the college.

Also by your logic, HLS is not peer schools with YLS and even SLS.

Also, that logic is debatable. Two schools are also peer schools if they admit largely the same group of people, which places H in the group with CCN than YS.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

set aside empirical disputes about what you're saying, students can make suboptimal choices. I mean some people choose Harvard over YLS. People choose georgetown over michigan at cost because of "lay prestige". All of the arguments pro HLS people made about lay prestige are absolutely true - and this higher lay prestige is boosting Harvard's yield beyond what is warranted. For example, I have a friend whose dad was pushing HLS on him because his father is an immigrant and was blinded by that lay prestige. in sum, cross-admit yield is one metric, but the best metric we have is outcomes.

[Anonymous User]

Never forget HLS was literally the third choice for law school after SLS (where she went in the book) and Chicago. SC>YH, robber baron school supremacy confirmed.

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

If I had to guess, more probably choose Harvard over Chicago then the reverse, but it is simply not true to insinuate that there are not a sizable amount of people choosing Chicago over Harvard with equal costs of attendance. A lot of right-leaning fed soc people absolutely prefer Chicago over Harvard and pick accordingly. In a way, it is similar to Chicago's undergrad where there are a lot of really smart students who have their pick of other schools but are absolutely drawn to Chicago for reasons like the life of the mind, free speech, fed soc, etc... I view NYU and CLS similarly. More people given the choice probably pick CLS over NYU, but NYU's culture attracts a certain type of person that absolutely prefers NYU over CLS for reasons unique to NYU and its culture. I think NYU and CLS are peer schools and I also think Harvard and Chicago are peer schools.

Really? You think a sizeable number would choose Chicago over Harvard for the same cost of attendance? NYU and Columbia have always been peers, but Harvard and Chicago? Wow. Maybe times have really changed.

[Anonymous User]

Never forget HLS was literally the third choice for law school after SLS (where she went in the book) and Chicago. SC>YH, robber baron school supremacy confirmed.

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

If I had to guess, more probably choose Harvard over Chicago then the reverse, but it is simply not true to insinuate that there are not a sizable amount of people choosing Chicago over Harvard with equal costs of attendance. A lot of right-leaning fed soc people absolutely prefer Chicago over Harvard and pick accordingly. In a way, it is similar to Chicago's undergrad where there are a lot of really smart students who have their pick of other schools but are absolutely drawn to Chicago for reasons like the life of the mind, free speech, fed soc, etc... I view NYU and CLS similarly. More people given the choice probably pick CLS over NYU, but NYU's culture attracts a certain type of person that absolutely prefers NYU over CLS for reasons unique to NYU and its culture. I think NYU and CLS are peer schools and I also think Harvard and Chicago are peer schools.

HLS kids are exactly the same kind who drive a Porsche Macau and keep saying they are better than those with an Audi R8 because a Porsche is a Porsche lol

[Anonymous User]

I think everyone has to agree that Harvard is still the undisputed king of lay prestige.

As they should be. No one places more people in more prominent positions across the board from SCOTUS to biglaw to politics to Fed leadership to academia and HLS has the undergrad prestige as a lay awareness foundation.

Harvard is in the heavyweight division and, though pound for pound YLS and SLS may on occasion have a better record, people pay more attention to the heavyweights rather than the fly weights.

This is exactly why HLS gets shit on so much. Stop tying yourself to YLS and SLS, and stop tying yourself to Harvard. It’s a clear number 3 law school with a lower standard of admissions than other renowned Harvard schools the University mainly uses to make cash. Dump your school pride and your platinum dvd collections of Suits. Then all the uchi trolling will stop.

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

If I had to guess, more probably choose Harvard over Chicago then the reverse, but it is simply not true to insinuate that there are not a sizable amount of people choosing Chicago over Harvard with equal costs of attendance. A lot of right-leaning fed soc people absolutely prefer Chicago over Harvard and pick accordingly. In a way, it is similar to Chicago's undergrad where there are a lot of really smart students who have their pick of other schools but are absolutely drawn to Chicago for reasons like the life of the mind, free speech, fed soc, etc... I view NYU and CLS similarly. More people given the choice probably pick CLS over NYU, but NYU's culture attracts a certain type of person that absolutely prefers NYU over CLS for reasons unique to NYU and its culture. I think NYU and CLS are peer schools and I also think Harvard and Chicago are peer schools.

Really? You think a sizeable number would choose Chicago over Harvard for the same cost of attendance? NYU and Columbia have always been peers, but Harvard and Chicago? Wow. Maybe times have really changed.

Stop…HLS has always been peers with CCN in terms of selectivity and they outcome. Reputation wise - you are not Harvard undergrad you realize that right?

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't put HLS on par with like the extension school in terms of a cash grab but yeah where YLS is maybe the crown jewel of Yale University, HLS certainly does not stand above like harvard medical school.

I love the parallels between HLS and Gtown - both massive "degree mills" with outsized lay prestige compared to where they actually stand, along with the "self-selection" arguments for worse outcomes. Every argument made in favor of HLS here can be adapted in favor of georgetown being better than like duke or something, and I think most of cringe at such arguments

There were only a few posts saying chicago was decidedly above harvard, I think most of us agree they are on the same tier. Our issue is putting Harvard decidedly above chicago and on par with SLS or even YLS

Chicago and Harvard are peer schools only if some people will choose Chicago over Harvard even when Chicago hasn't offered any merit scholarship. When admitted to both Harvard and Stanford, some choose to to go to Harvard and others choose to go to Stanfard. So they are peer schools. When admitted to both Harvard and Chicago, no one chooses Chicago unless there's some merit scholarship offered - in fact, many choose Harvard in such instances even when Chicago is offering them money. They are not peer schools.

set aside empirical disputes about what you're saying, students can make suboptimal choices. I mean some people choose Harvard over YLS. People choose georgetown over michigan at cost because of "lay prestige". All of the arguments pro HLS people made about lay prestige are absolutely true - and this higher lay prestige is boosting Harvard's yield beyond what is warranted. For example, I have a friend whose dad was pushing HLS on him because his father is an immigrant and was blinded by that lay prestige. in sum, cross-admit yield is one metric, but the best metric we have is outcomes.

Even being carried by the actual prestigious Harvard schools Harvard’s yield is still not comparable to YLS. And the vast majority people HLS accepted can’t even get in YLS or SLS