Cornell (Half) vs. StJohn's (Full) Forum

[AntsInMyEyesJohnson]

After reading all 10 pages, I've never seen someone fight so hard to avoid the T14 with decent money. OP is the Anti-TLSer -- the apocalypse is upon us.

Haha, yes, I guess I am "the Anti-TLSer" lol, although I don't see why that's a particularly bad thing considering my circumstances. I'm not aiming to go into BigLaw, so it doesn't make sense for me to go into so much debt for a prestigious name. Perhaps if I got a decent scholarship into an Ivy with a more public interest focus, like NYU, or if I got a full ride at Cornell, it would be a different story. But I personally know many people not on this forum who also have what you would call an "anti-TLS" mentality, and most of them are doing fine, working in the field of their choosing, either in BigLaw or Public Interest. They chose cost over name, and it worked out in their favor. I'm not saying that means it'll work out for me, but it definitely won't lead to an apocalypse, lol.

In keeping with the tendency of this thread, I am going to disregard everything you've said to me and stick with my decision. So, I maintain that the apocalypse is upon us.

In all seriousness, though, I wish you the best in your decision, but strongly urge you to choose Cornell.

[silverdoe91]

In keeping with the tendency of this thread, I am going to disregard everything you've said to me and stick with my decision. So, I maintain that the apocalypse is upon us.

In all seriousness, though, I wish you the best in your decision, but strongly urge you to choose Cornell.

Lol, can you please explain how the apocalypse is upon us? I don't get the logic you used to come to that conclusion.

Thanks. I'd really love to go to Cornell because it's a very prestigious university, the campus is beautiful, and the academics are top notch. However, because of the circumstances I listed before (my commitment to public interest and the amount of debt I'd have to take on) I just don't think it's a realistic option for me. I spoke on the phone to a Cornell grad who is currently on the LRAP and he had to file taxes separately from his wife, just to be eligible, and now that he got a promotion he's no longer eligible and he seemed pretty upset about it. He told me only 10 other students from his graduating class went into PI, so there's not as much of an alumni network for Cornell grads who go into PI. The only one he knows who placed in NYC is working at the Bronx Defenders, which honestly you do not need a degree from Cornell to get a job there; I know two Fordham alums who work there as well.

[AntsInMyEyesJohnson]

In keeping with the tendency of this thread, I am going to disregard everything you've said to me and stick with my decision. So, I maintain that the apocalypse is upon us.

In all seriousness, though, I wish you the best in your decision, but strongly urge you to choose Cornell.

Lol, can you please explain how the apocalypse is upon us? I don't get the logic you used to come to that conclusion.

Thanks. I'd really love to go to Cornell because it's a very prestigious university, the campus is beautiful, and the academics are top notch. However, because of the circumstances I listed before (my commitment to public interest and the amount of debt I'd have to take on) I just don't think it's a realistic option for me. I spoke on the phone to a Cornell grad who is currently on the LRAP and he had to file taxes separately from his wife, just to be eligible, and now that he got a promotion he's no longer eligible and he seemed pretty upset about it. He told me only 10 other students from his graduating class went into PI, so there's not as much of an alumni network for Cornell grads who go into PI. The only one he knows who placed in NYC is working at the Bronx Defenders, which honestly you do not need a degree from Cornell to get a job there; I know two Fordham alums who work there as well.

As the coming of the AntiChrist marks the apocalypse, so too can be said of the Anti-TLSer.

[silverdoe91]

As the coming of the AntiChrist marks the apocalypse, so too can be said of the Anti-TLSer.

LOL, but WHY??

[Rigo]

Do Fordham then. NOT SJU.

[Glasseyes]

I retract everything I said earlier. Go earn that summa at St Johns. May your classmates wilt in the face of your blistering intellect. The world is your oyster.

[cavalier1138]

Great. Then since your goals were stated as, "I'd like to go into Public Interest law or maybe Government, but I do not want to rule out other legal career options such as BigLaw," Cornell is the correct choice.

Here's the thing about the $80k cap for LRAP, by the way. Yes, other (higher-ranked) schools offer better LRAP coverage for people who earn more than that. But if your'e in a PSLF-eligible job, then $80k+ a year should be more than sufficient for covering your IBR payments on your own for the 10-year period it takes to get PSLF.

Also, unless you're talking about an absolutely stellar unicorn clinic or internship (the EJI clinic at NYU comes to mind), all the T14 schools offer pretty much the exact same classes/internships/clinics.

Public Interest attorneys I've spoken to so far advised me to do as many internships as possible while in school, possibly every semester even, and I just don't think I can manage to do that in Ithaca considering its location. I doubt there are as many law offices there where I can intern and do the various types of public sector law I want to do as compared to New York City. I'll definitely have to do more research on Ithaca's neighboring law offices though to see what if any opportunities they do offer in this respect.

What attorneys are telling you to do this? And what schools are they recommending for it?

Most schools will let you do a semester-long externship for credit, but you can really only do that once. You generally save interning for the summer and use a clinic for your actual hands-on experience during the school year.

[A. Nony Mouse]

That's just not true. You can intern/extern (not just work in a clinic) during the school year as well as during the summer.

[cavalier1138]

That's just not true. You can intern/extern (not just work in a clinic) during the school year as well as during the summer.

Isn't there a limit that most schools place on credits that can be earned from interning during the year?

I just can't see someone being able to intern every single semester and still keep on track with their courses.

[A. Nony Mouse]

There may be a cap on how many credits the school will count toward the degree, but the caps vary, you don't have to intern for the same number of hours each semester, and you can still intern on top of the cap if you choose. I externed/interned both semesters 2L and spring semester 3L (as well as doing a clinic all of 3L). I didn't get credit for the last internship because I'd hit the cap, but it helped me get the job I have now. (I also know people who worked for firms all of 2L &3L - obviously there's not an issue of getting credit for that work, but you can do that on top of your courses just fine.)

I realize people who are at T14s probably don't do this as often, but many (most?) T14ers are headed toward biglaw, where intern/externships don't seem to matter much for hiring - after all, ideally you lock down what will be your permanent postgrad job in the fall of 2L. If you're looking for a PI job, those are jobs where intern/externships matter a LOT, and chances are good you may not even get hired until you've passed the bar, so what you do with every law school semester counts.

[Glasseyes]

Yeah, to second the above, I think a lot of PI folks do a ton of externships during the semester. At my school you can do two semester-long externships for credit, plus a clinic (up to a year long depending on the particular clinic). Lots of kids do externships every semester though (some even during spring 1L, which is insane).

That said, I don't know how much practical benefit you get from doing that, but for networking purposes it probably helps you lay groundwork for some future career moves. While you may have more access to certain types of externship opportunities at Fordham that aren't available at Cornell, the boost in employment outcomes in every sphere of legal practice probably outweighs Fordham's slight edge in experiential options. I honestly can't imagine any situation where Fordham at half price is a better idea than Cornell at half price, especially if you're keeping the idea of biglaw as some kind of backup (most PI diehards ultimately do OCI anyway; interests and goals have a way of changing).

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah, I should clarify that I'm not saying because you can/should do externships every semester, the OP should pick Fordham over Cornell; I'm sure there are plenty of opportunities to get good experience from Cornell, and OP keeps talking about not wanting to rule out non-PI options, which definitely screams Cornell to me. I just wanted to push back on the idea that there would be no benefit to being in NYC/making connections during the school year - I think there would be. I don't think those benefits clearly justify Fordham over Cornell, though.

[starsofthelidd]

OP for what it's worth I am also really debt averse, and like I said am going to Cornell on the same scholarship you have. I am $0 in debt right now, so the prospect of taking on that much debt fucked me up for a while. After months of deliberation, research, conversations with friends and family, I'm certain I'm making the right choice for me; of course that doesn't mean it would be right for you.

As others have mentioned here, you seem pretty dead set against Cornell, so why go? The LRAP stuff sounds insane, for example. I had questions about how it worked, too (I may do PI, trying to figure that out now), so I met with the financial aid person and asked them questions about it. You're free to do the same, whether in person or by phone. But for whatever reason--and I know I'm only repeating what everyone else has already said, which I feel okay doing because you're having such a hard time hearing it--you're asking people for advice about a decision that you already seem to have made.

Haha, no I haven't made a decision yet, I'd just like to consider every side of the story before making one. Are you planning on going into BigLaw? I've worked at a BigLaw firm before and I'm not particularly fond of being stuck in that kind of environment to pay off loans or for whatever other reason.

I spoke to the PI director at Cornell several times, but even though it does sound good, there are definitely some caveats that are not 100% clear and perhaps won't be until you experience it for yourself (such as the cap at 80k a year, which sounds great at first, but do I really not plan on making more than that in 10 years of working in the same field? I would expect a pay raise, and most PI people do receive a raise even over the 80k mark. Another point of contention for me is their maternity leave rules only cover you for the first 12 weeks and then you're on your own with paying the loans. Finally, what if I choose to do public sector work but in a private firm? Just because its not a government sanctioned non-profit does not mean my salary will be greater than 80k or even 50k, but in that case Cornell's LRAP won't cover me.) I have a call scheduled with a Cornell Alum who is currently on the LRAP so hopefully that can clear up some concerns for me.

If you are this averse to even the slightest risk/inconvenience/difficulty you should probably not attend law school.

I'm kind of with LandMermaid here, although, again, I understand what it's like to face down that much debt. But so do a lot of people here, many of whom are offering you thoughtful advice based on their personal experience. I'm still not sold that you're interested in any of it, or haven't already made up your mind.

I'm not sure if I want big law or not. I need to decide soon. When I applied to law school I was dead set on PI, but that's changed over the last six months or so. Right now, like many others, I'm thinking big law 3-5 years, then getting out and doing something I enjoy more. But unlike you I have no experience with it and so, although everyone else seems to hate it and the odds seem great that I will, too, I'm not sure yet that I will.

Anyway, good luck with your decision.

[silverdoe91]

I honestly can't imagine any situation where Fordham at half price is a better idea than Cornell at half price

Actually Fordham gave me a 2/3 scholarship, and due to the lower cost of Fordham's tuition overall and the absence of living expenses, Fordham comes around to being about 1/3 the price of Cornell. Plus Fordham's chances of getting me a BigLaw job are 30% which is not bad. But I may be reading that wrong, and making the wrong assumptions based on this info. Please advise!

Fordham COA: 45k
Cornell COA: 135k (Tuition 90k plus 15k a year for living expenses)

[Nachoo2019]

Yeah, to second the above, I think a lot of PI folks do a ton of externships during the semester. At my school you can do two semester-long externships for credit, plus a clinic (up to a year long depending on the particular clinic). Lots of kids do externships every semester though (some even during spring 1L, which is insane).

That said, I don't know how much practical benefit you get from doing that, but for networking purposes it probably helps you lay groundwork for some future career moves. While you may have more access to certain types of externship opportunities at Fordham that aren't available at Cornell, the boost in employment outcomes in every sphere of legal practice probably outweighs Fordham's slight edge in experiential options. I honestly can't imagine any situation where Fordham at half price is a better idea than Cornell at half price, especially if you're keeping the idea of biglaw as some kind of backup (most PI diehards ultimately do OCI anyway; interests and goals have a way of changing).

Due to the lower cost of Fordham's tuition overall and the absence of living expenses I would only have at Cornell, Fordham comes around to being about 1/3 the price of Cornell. Plus Fordham's chances of getting me a BigLaw job are 30% which is not bad. But I may be reading that wrong, and making the wrong assumptions based on this info. Please advise!

Fordham COA: 45k
Cornell COA: 135k (Tuition 90k plus 15k a year for living expenses)

Jesus. This thread needs to go away. Cornell is absolutely worth 90k more no matter what your goals are.

[silverdoe91]

Jesus. This thread needs to go away. Cornell is absolutely worth 90k more no matter what your goals are.

Why do you say that? In NY public interest Cornell does not place any better than many regional schools. From what I've seen, the only school that really has pull in the public interest field is NYU. Cornell grads usually end up in the same place grads of other schools do but they have to worry about paying back huge loans if they get a raise. That seems like a disadvantage to me.

[emkay625]

Jesus. This thread needs to go away. Cornell is absolutely worth 90k more no matter what your goals are.

Why do you say that? In NY public interest Cornell does not place any better than many regional schools. From what I've seen, the only school that really has pull in the public interest field is NYU. Cornell grads usually end up in the same place grads of other schools do but they have to worry about paying back huge loans if they get a raise. That seems like a disadvantage to me.

What statistics or data are you basing this on?

Also, if I were a betting person, a person would need to be in the top of their class at St. John's to snag an interview at some places while a below median grad at Cornell would have no problem.

[silverdoe91]

Jesus. This thread needs to go away. Cornell is absolutely worth 90k more no matter what your goals are.

Why do you say that? In NY public interest Cornell does not place any better than many regional schools. From what I've seen, the only school that really has pull in the public interest field is NYU. Cornell grads usually end up in the same place grads of other schools do but they have to worry about paying back huge loans if they get a raise. That seems like a disadvantage to me.

What statistics or data are you basing this on?

Also, if I were a betting person, a person would need to be in the top of their class at St. John's to snag an interview at some places while a below median grad at Cornell would have no problem.

There doesn't seem to be any statistics that list the exact companies graduates work for, especially those that going into the public sector. However, I've asked each school where their graduates have placed, and the public interest jobs they've acquired seem similar. I've also looked up various non-profits in NYC and browsed through their staff to see how many members they have from each school. Granted, Cornell has a smaller class size, but I typically tend to see Cornell grads in the same places as Fordham and Cardozo grads, and the latter two have more representation than the former. The largest proliferation I see of graduates from one school tends to be NYU or H/Y/S.

I don't see many SJU people, but they're the only ones offering me a free ride so far, so that's why I'm considering them. What I've noticed with all of the staff members, particularly the ones from Fordham/Cardozo is that they have a lot of internship experience working for non-profits, especially in NYC. I'm assuming I can replicate this even if I go to SJU for the free ride, but with Cornell it might be harder to do so. Even if I do end up in a non-profit job out of Cornell, chances are it'll be a job I could've attained from one of the other schools by interning a lot, and racking up a lot less debt.

[emkay625]

OP are you still on the SJ train or is it now just Fordham v. Cornell?

Also, you are not calculating your COA correctly. You need to factor in interest, loan origination fees, etc. And tuition at both schools is higher than what your numbers seem to indicate.

[ponderingmeerkat]

Went away for 5 days.

Came back to this forum specifically to check if this thread was still alive.

It is.

I smiled.

On one level, it warms the cockles of my heart that people like OP exist. Like a work by Escher in human form: irritatingly self-digestive, curvilinear logic coupled with hyperbolic, self-imposed constraints and layered above tessellated neuroses.

On another level, it's truly frightening...like staring into the abyss. This thread forces me to reevaluate all my life choices, and wonder how much I will want to suck-start a shotgun if I have to work with people punched from the same mold as OP for the next 40 years.

I frowned.

[Dcc617]

OP did you decide? I hate never getting resolution on these threads.

[Mikey]

^ Same, especially for this interesting thread.

[Glasseyes]

Yes, OP, please update us with your decision and any new and compelling arguments against Cornell

[silverdoe91]

I have news; Cardozo offered me a full ride! I know they are currently tied with SJU in the World News Rankings, but they have a really good reputation in NYC for public interest. They also have many clinics and programs I like that the other schools I am considering do not have. I think for a full ride (this one is unconditional for all three years) it's not bad. The only problem I have is the library is kind of shitty but I figure I can just walk over/take a bus to the public library on 42nd street if I need to. Also, another qualm I have is that the incoming students there have a GPA/LSAT range that is way below mine, so Idk if I'll be learning with peers, but I figure either that means I'll stand out, or if they are smarter than their numbers make them look then I will have intellectual peers.

Does anyone have any thoughts on Cardozo?

I know their unemployment rates are pretty high but for last year those rates were pretty much identical to that of Fordham. So I figure why spend 45k on a similar shot at employment? (Granted, my big law chances will be lower, but I'm not aiming for that anyway.)

[silverdoe91]

OP are you still on the SJ train or is it now just Fordham v. Cornell?

Also, you are not calculating your COA correctly. You need to factor in interest, loan origination fees, etc. And tuition at both schools is higher than what your numbers seem to indicate.

I did include interest and origination fees in my calculations. (For Cornell I did the bare minimum for living expenses though, so it may be more.)

But that's exactly why I am considering my full ride options right now with either Cardozo or SJU, because I figure that way I can circumvent all these tricky surprise fees that I'll have to deal with upon graduation. :/

Cardozo is better for public interest (in terms of reputation, clinics, and internship opportunities in the area) but St. John's has the better library. So now I'm trying to decide between the two. Fordham seems to have both aspects but idk if it's worth 15k more a year just for a better library than Cardozo...