William and Mary vs Washington and Lee? Forum

[Aberzombie1892]

Hey Aber, where'd you get that data? I've never seen anything that detailed about either school. Good find.

US News Law school rankings (the-after-you-pay-$15-section-online).

On another note, you can see Wash & Lee's salary statistics are only for the top ~25% (56% reporting of 56% in private sector) while William and Mary's are for the top ~40% (79% reporting of 53% in private sector).

But of course, salaries are relative to the cost of living and person preferences (by that I mean, I could open up Joe the Plumber school of law in New York (Manhattan) and get it accredited - and then have 6 figure starting salaries [and it not be a complete lie]).

Wash & Lee has double the Article III federal judge clerkships though.

William and Mary 13% more employed at graduation.

And the deal breaker is - - - instate tuition (if you are from there, if not then...personal preference could prevail).

[LSATfromNC]

Hey Aber, where'd you get that data? I've never seen anything that detailed about either school. Good find.

Looks like US News, they have it for every school. You have to have a premium subscription.

[Blindmelon]

Hey Aber, where'd you get that data? I've never seen anything that detailed about either school. Good find.

Looks like US News, they have it for every school. You have to have a premium subscription.

Boo... what a rip off. Anyone want to post BU's full employment data? I'd be curious.

[Aberzombie1892]

Aberzombie to the rescue! jk.

Careers : Boston University

Bar Statistics (Winter and Summer 2007 administrations)
State where the greatest number of first-time test takers took the bar MA
School's bar passage rate for first-time test takers 93.7%
Statewide bar passage rate for first-time test takers 86.1%
Class of 2007 Graduates
Total graduates 293
Graduates employed at graduation 99.3%
Graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation 99.7%
Starting Salaries of 2007 Graduates Employed Full-time
25th percentile private sector starting salary $135,500
Median private sector starting salary $145,000
75th percentile private sector starting salary $160,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information 66%
Median public service starting salary $50,000
Areas of Legal Practice (Class of 2007)
Percent employed in academia 4.0%
Percent employed in business and industry 8.0%
Percent employed in government 7.0%
Percent employed in all judicial clerkships 6.0%
Percent employed in law firms 70.0%
Percent employed in public interest 4.0%
Percent employed in an unknown field 1.0%
Percent employed in a judicial clerkship by an Article III federal judge 1.0%
2007 Graduates Employment Location
Graduates employed in-state 38%
Graduates employed in foreign countries 2%
Number of states where graduates are employed 21
New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT) 43.0%
Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA) 29.0%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 3.0%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 1.0%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV) 9.0%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 0.0%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 0.0%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA) 10.0%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 1.0%
Employment location unknown 2.0%

The private sector salary info is for the top ~46% (70% in private practice 66% reporting).

[WillyTee]

I think William & Mary is a little more 'liberal' than Washington & Lee. They just elected a transgendered person as their homecoming queen, so they obviously love the gays. It's also a "name brand" school, especially with regards to undergrad (I think #6 for public schools on USNWR). I think they even play Harvard in basketball, lol. W&L has a really good law school, and some might even say it's better than W&M. But just speaking in terms of general prestige of the institution, W&M wins out.

[Blindmelon]

Thanks Aber! You rock.

[daniel5215]

Aberzombie to the rescue! jk.

Careers : Boston University

Bar Statistics (Winter and Summer 2007 administrations)
State where the greatest number of first-time test takers took the bar MA
School's bar passage rate for first-time test takers 93.7%
Statewide bar passage rate for first-time test takers 86.1%
Class of 2007 Graduates
Total graduates 293
Graduates employed at graduation 99.3%
Graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation 99.7%
Starting Salaries of 2007 Graduates Employed Full-time
25th percentile private sector starting salary $135,500
Median private sector starting salary $145,000
75th percentile private sector starting salary $160,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information 66%
Median public service starting salary $50,000
Areas of Legal Practice (Class of 2007)
Percent employed in academia 4.0%
Percent employed in business and industry 8.0%
Percent employed in government 7.0%
Percent employed in all judicial clerkships 6.0%
Percent employed in law firms 70.0%
Percent employed in public interest 4.0%
Percent employed in an unknown field 1.0%
Percent employed in a judicial clerkship by an Article III federal judge 1.0%
2007 Graduates Employment Location
Graduates employed in-state 38%
Graduates employed in foreign countries 2%
Number of states where graduates are employed 21
New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT) 43.0%
Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA) 29.0%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 3.0%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 1.0%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV) 9.0%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 0.0%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 0.0%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA) 10.0%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 1.0%
Employment location unknown 2.0%

The private sector salary info is for the top ~46% (70% in private practice 66% reporting).

Mind helping me out with BC? Thx!

[Maillot Jaune]

Why is there such a large discrepancy between teh two with Ar. III clerkships?

I plan on applying to both and would be very happy with either but that is a huge gap. If W&M is ranked higher and from the general consensus it is more prestigous then what is the missing link?

[bahama]

In summary, W&M has a better location, better private practice job prospects, higher lay prestige, and lower in state tuition.

[Aberzombie1892]

Why is there such a large discrepancy between teh two with Ar. III clerkships?

I plan on applying to both and would be very happy with either but that is a huge gap. If W&M is ranked higher and from the general consensus it is more prestigous then what is the missing link?

Personal Preference.

On this site, and probably at every T50 school career development office, they talk about judicial clerkships often.

In fact, if prospective/current students did not know better, they could easily believe that everyone decides to clerk when they get out.

Honestly, very very few students clerk when they get out of law school. Period.

I'm not going to sit here and blow through advantages and disadvantages, just know the major advantage is prestige and the major disadvantage is the low salary (that doesn't qualify for LRAP or anything of that nature and it doesn't postpone loan payments).


True firms will pay you a bonus if you clerk, but if you do the math -

Example:

Clerking bonus:
1) career track (adds a year to your progress towards partner)
2) bonus (probably between $25,000-$50,000)


Let's say the firm starts at $100,000.

Not clerking path:
1st year at firm - $100,000 + $10,000 year end bonus
2nd year at firm - $115,000 (lock step compensation) + $20,000 year end bonus
Total: $245,000

(taxes would go up the second year, but look at the clerking path)

Clerking path:
Clerking year - $55,000
1st year in firm - $115,000 (career track compensation) + $40,000 clerking bonus + $20,000 year end bonus
Total: $230,000

(Don't forget that the second year on the clerking path will be taxed far more heavily due to receiving all of the bonuses at once - this wouldn't matter, but it's your first year making "real" money)

[dark]

Both schools are excellent. Prestige-wise, I'm assuming people refer to which school will be better for launching students in interesting or prestigious occupations.

Assuming you want to stay in VA, either is great. If you want to go out West (Colorado, Arizona, California), I don't think either school has much of a reputation, but WM has hundreds of CA based alumni (I just looked in the private alumni database). If you want to go to the Northeast (New York city baby!) people generally know about William and Mary in terms of its prestige as an undergrad institution, but are much less familiar with the law school specifically. -This isn't necessarily a bad thing though, as people have generally heard the name and consider it something of a prestigious selective school. I don't know if Washington and Lee gets the same. Finally, I think both schools do equally alright for job placement in DC with the Federal Gov because of the relative proximity to the area.

[dark]

+1. I have the same question as OP. But I heard that W&M is more Jesuit and homophobic

I don't even know where you'd hear something like this. There does not appear to be any particular religious bias among students or the administration (it is after all, a public university), and I have never heard of any incidences of homophobia. There is also an active GLBT law student organization.


I remember last year, someone on TLS said his impression of the campus was that it was "lily white." Which I assume means he didn't think the student body was particularly diverse. Let me say this isn't really the case either.

[articulably suspect]

Aberzombie to the rescue! jk.

Careers : Boston University

Bar Statistics (Winter and Summer 2007 administrations)
State where the greatest number of first-time test takers took the bar MA
School's bar passage rate for first-time test takers 93.7%
Statewide bar passage rate for first-time test takers 86.1%
Class of 2007 Graduates
Total graduates 293
Graduates employed at graduation 99.3%
Graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation 99.7%
Starting Salaries of 2007 Graduates Employed Full-time
25th percentile private sector starting salary $135,500
Median private sector starting salary $145,000
75th percentile private sector starting salary $160,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information 66%
Median public service starting salary $50,000
Areas of Legal Practice (Class of 2007)
Percent employed in academia 4.0%
Percent employed in business and industry 8.0%
Percent employed in government 7.0%
Percent employed in all judicial clerkships 6.0%
Percent employed in law firms 70.0%
Percent employed in public interest 4.0%
Percent employed in an unknown field 1.0%
Percent employed in a judicial clerkship by an Article III federal judge 1.0%
2007 Graduates Employment Location
Graduates employed in-state 38%
Graduates employed in foreign countries 2%
Number of states where graduates are employed 21
New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT) 43.0%
Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA) 29.0%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 3.0%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 1.0%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV) 9.0%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 0.0%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 0.0%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA) 10.0%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 1.0%
Employment location unknown 2.0%

The private sector salary info is for the top ~46% (70% in private practice 66% reporting).

[xanderdellus]

+1. I have the same question as OP. But I heard that W&M is more Jesuit and homophobic

I don't even know where you'd hear something like this. There does not appear to be any particular religious bias among students or the administration (it is after all, a public university), and I have never heard of any incidences of homophobia. There is also an active GLBT law student organization.


I remember last year, someone on TLS said his impression of the campus was that it was "lily white." Which I assume means he didn't think the student body was particularly diverse. Let me say this isn't really the case either.

When I was in undergrad at W&M it was known as William and Larry. It is the most gay friendly campus in VA. It also has, speaking a grad, nationwide name recognition. It is the second oldest school in the country and Alma Mater for numerous revolutionary heroes and (I believe) has more US President alum than any school, but Harvard.

There are three bars in town all on the same corner. Every law student goes to the Greenleafe or Paul's. I knew a lot of them.

[articulably suspect]

+1. I have the same question as OP. But I heard that W&M is more Jesuit and homophobic

I don't even know where you'd hear something like this. There does not appear to be any particular religious bias among students or the administration (it is after all, a public university), and I have never heard of any incidences of homophobia. There is also an active GLBT law student organization.


I remember last year, someone on TLS said his impression of the campus was that it was "lily white." Which I assume means he didn't think the student body was particularly diverse. Let me say this isn't really the case either.

When I was in undergrad at W&M it was known as William and Larry. It is the most gay friendly campus in VA. It also has, speaking a grad, nationwide name recognition. It is the second oldest school in the country and Alma Mater for numerous revolutionary heroes and (I believe) has more US President alum than any school, but Harvard.

There are three bars in town all on the same corner. Every law student goes to the Greenleafe or Paul's. I knew a lot of them.

really, i never thought W&M had much lay prestige.

[xanderdellus]

My family in TX was VERY impressed. It was also widely recognized when I lived in the Chicago area, where there is a surprisingly strong alumni network.

[articulably suspect]

My family in TX was VERY impressed. It was also widely recognized when I lived in the Chicago area, where there is a surprisingly strong alumni network.

Well, they're from Texas, sorry kidding.

I graduated from a school ranked right at/around W&M. Everyone in my state and area thinks it's this great school, which it is and they think it's well known throughout the US I don't think so. Probably, mainly becasue people are somewhat familiar with the UC public university system in CA. For the most part, I consider schools with national recognition to be schools like Harvard, Cornell, Columbia, Gtown, MIT, etc.

I know W&M is a good school, but I wouldn't say it has much of a national reputation, but my definition of national reputation is pretty conservative.

FWIW, I had never really heard of W&M until I googled John Stewart.

[xanderdellus]

+1. I have the same question as OP. But I heard that W&M is more Jesuit and homophobic

I don't even know where you'd hear something like this. There does not appear to be any particular religious bias among students or the administration (it is after all, a public university), and I have never heard of any incidences of homophobia. There is also an active GLBT law student organization.


I remember last year, someone on TLS said his impression of the campus was that it was "lily white." Which I assume means he didn't think the student body was particularly diverse. Let me say this isn't really the case either.

When I was in undergrad at W&M it was known as William and Larry. It is the most gay friendly campus in VA. It also has, speaking a grad, nationwide name recognition. It is the second oldest school in the country and Alma Mater for numerous revolutionary heroes and (I believe) has more US President alum than any school, but Harvard.

There are three bars in town all on the same corner. Every law student goes to the Greenleafe or Paul's. I knew a lot of them.

LSAT fail. Never said national reputation.

[articulably suspect]

+1. I have the same question as OP. But I heard that W&M is more Jesuit and homophobic

I don't even know where you'd hear something like this. There does not appear to be any particular religious bias among students or the administration (it is after all, a public university), and I have never heard of any incidences of homophobia. There is also an active GLBT law student organization.


I remember last year, someone on TLS said his impression of the campus was that it was "lily white." Which I assume means he didn't think the student body was particularly diverse. Let me say this isn't really the case either.

When I was in undergrad at W&M it was known as William and Larry. It is the most gay friendly campus in VA. It also has, speaking a grad, nationwide name recognition. It is the second oldest school in the country and Alma Mater for numerous revolutionary heroes and (I believe) has more US President alum than any school, but Harvard.

There are three bars in town all on the same corner. Every law student goes to the Greenleafe or Paul's. I knew a lot of them.

LSAT fail. Never said national reputation.

Nationwide name recognition and national reputation, yeah wow sorry I mixed those two up. So nationwide, the name of the school, W&M is well known , but this doesn't necessarily mean it has much of a national reputation. So you're saying W&M has lay prestige nationwide? The premise of my previous post, despite the mix up with the name recognition thing, was that I don't think W&M has it, I thought that came through.

[daniel5215]

LSAT fail. Never said national reputation.

Nationwide name recognition and national reputation, yeah wow sorry I mixed those two up. So nationwide, the name of the school, W&M is well known , but this doesn't necessarily mean it has much of a national reputation. So you're saying W&M has lay prestige nationwide? The premise of my previous post, despite the mix up with the name recognition thing, was that I don't think W&M has it, I thought that came through.

I think what xanderdellus meant by "nationwide name recognition" is that everyone in the country knows there is a school named William & Mary, but no one knows how good its law school is? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[articulably suspect]

LSAT fail. Never said national reputation.

Nationwide name recognition and national reputation, yeah wow sorry I mixed those two up. So nationwide, the name of the school, W&M is well known , but this doesn't necessarily mean it has much of a national reputation. So you're saying W&M has lay prestige nationwide? The premise of my previous post, despite the mix up with the name recognition thing, was that I don't think W&M has it, I thought that came through.

I think what xanderdellus meant by "nationwide name recognition" is that everyone in the country knows there is a school named William & Mary, but no one knows how good its law school is? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, that W&M has good nationwide recognition, ie lay prestige is what I think he/she was saying. I'm saying that it doesn't have great lay pretsige at the UG or LS level nationwide. Columbia, Gtown, etc have this at both levels, W&M not so much on either IMO.

[xanderdellus]

W&M absolutely does not compare to Columbia or Georgetown, but the discussion was about its comparison to W&L.

On topic: I was suggesting that W&M is a well-known school, especially for a school with no sports to speak of. Usually when people would ask me about it it, the exchange would be something like, "William and Mary? I've heard of them. They're pretty good, right?" So while I wasn't previously saying anything about lay prestige, I would venture to say that the name recognition does come with a bit of prestige. It's certainly better than, "You went to where?" or "I didn't know that North Carolina had another state school?"

I wonder what a W&L grad who has lived around the country has experienced in terms of name recognition? Anybody W&L guys out there?

[articulably suspect]

W&M absolutely does not compare to Columbia or Georgetown, but the discussion was about its comparison to W&L.

On topic: I was suggesting that W&M is a well-known school, especially for a school with no sports to speak of. Usually when people would ask me about it it, the exchange would be something like, "William and Mary? I've heard of them. They're pretty good, right?" So while I wasn't previously saying anything about lay prestige, I would venture to say that the name recognition does come with a bit of prestige. It's certainly better than, "You went to where?" or "I didn't know that North Carolina had another state school?"

I wonder what a W&L grad who has lived around the country has experienced in terms of name recognition? Anybody W&L guys out there?

I know it doesn't compare to those schools, those schools do have nationwide name recognition. I just think most would agree that W&M doesn't have much in terms of name recognition nationwide and that schools that undoubtedly do would be Stanford, Columbia, etc. I don't think W&M has much name recognition on the west coast. It's a good school, I just don't think it has that kind of reach, schools like the ones I previously mentioned are known or have been heard of all around the country, it would be shocking if someone hadn't heard of Stanford, Columbia, etc, but W&M, not so much.

I would pick W&M, but the differences in placement aren't extremely different, for the law schools. Location would be the deal breaker for me.

[wackjickham]

(Lynchburg is less than an hour away so it isn't THAT far from major cities).

Blatant Roanoke trolling

[xanderdellus]

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... =1&t=95307

At least one person thinks W&M has top lay prestige. Not that I endorse the full rankings.