BYU 1L Taking Questions Forum

[biggame]

How does the externship program work? Is it difficult to get a good spot?

Are you familiar with any graduate housing?

there are a couple of ways it works.

International: you submit a resume, cover letter, and at least 3 countries that you would be willing to go to and then they place you. It is all at firms, mostly baker and mckenzie, Church Legal Offices, and others.

Domestic: There are some firms all around the country, except ny doesn't allow it (there are attorneys there who would take externs but their firms won't let them) but all the rest of the counrty who said they want a BYU student. Again you submit a resume, and cover letter for each firm, you rank the firms in order of preference, then if there are multiple students who want to go to a firm the firms then ranks the students and they match it up like that. My friend was the only person who applied to Arent Fox in DC so he will be there for part of the summer.

Self Initiated: Then if you aren't feeling either of those options you can get your own. The school has a database of all different places where students have externed before with contact information so you can contact any of those that look interesting. You can also just find you own thing.

this is all going on well before grades come out from first semester.

The best part is you can get up to 6 credits and each credit only cost $20 instead of having to pay full tuition. It is great.

I will be working abroad and in ny this coming summer.

[biggame]

How does the externship program work? Is it difficult to get a good spot?

Are you familiar with any graduate housing?

there is graduate housing for married students but I am not sure what they have for single students. I actually live in Orem and there are students that live all over the place. No matter where you live the commute is so easy and there is plenty of housing in Provo.

I know there is housing help for graduate students in general. I don't think the law school helps out that much because they just refer you to the housing office but there is so much housing you can easily find something on your own.

[fleurdelis]

Cool. Thanks for all the info!

Last thing: what is a common complaint among your peers? Anything at all?

[biggame]

Cool. Thanks for all the info!

Last thing: what is a common complaint among your peers? Anything at all?

Common complaint....I can't think of anything that is complained about regularly....just little stuff here in there...I was talking to one of classmates today who did undergrad at UCLA and he was thinking out loud when he said "I wonder how much of the Mormon influence is affecting the way that he is learning, seeing, or being taught the law." He didn't say it in a negative way but just that generally people and professors here are more conservative. So that's that for what it is worth.

BTW, the externship program really is one of a kind. In my research of law schools, visiting, reading, and talking to people I never came across something like BYU has. Just a thought.

[jrcheese]

Princeton Law Review lists BYU as the #1 most competitive law school. I don’t know what criteria they used to come to this assessment. Is it really as bad as it sounds?

Also, what is your definition of competitive (as it relates to law school)?

On a more general note, what things should a future 1L be doing right now to prepare for the brutality of the first semester? (e.g. readings, habits, etc.)

[biggame]

Princeton Law Review lists BYU as the #1 most competitive law school. I don’t know what criteria they used to come to this assessment. Is it really as bad as it sounds?

Also, what is your definition of competitive (as it relates to law school)?

On a more general note, what things should a future 1L be doing right now to prepare for the brutality of the first semester? (e.g. readings, habits, etc.)

That ranking is based on a supposed questionnaire. Questions include the following: How many hours do you sleep a night? How many hours do you study daily? How many hours do you think your classmates study? etc.

I think the ranking does have some merit but not too much for two reasons. (1) A majority of the student body is married and a good percentage of those have kids already or during law school. I definitely think this effects the answers to questions like the ones posed in the questionnaire. (2) We all have our own desks and the 1Ls are all in the same area. Overall this is a great thing, but I think that it definitely leads students to over estimate the amount of time classmates study because the assumption is that if someone is at their desk that they are studying. This is far from the truth. People aren't always studying even if they are at their desk.

I was worried about how that ranking would effect daily life at school and I am glad to report that my fears were completely unfounded. That being said people do seem to work hard and be focused. Another side effect of having married students is that they tend to be more focused and less social. Their emphasis seems to be on efficiency because they want to get home and spend time with their families.

I have also been pleasantly surprised with how friendly everyone is and how well we all get to know each other. We have a relatively small class and we all study around each other so there is plenty of time to socialize, organize study groups, and have fun. Really is a great community.

I guess my answer would be that it feels much less competitive then it might actually be. But again, at every school there are a lot of people working hard, trying to get the best grade they possibly can so I think it would be similar at other schools.

I have read a lot of advice about What to Do before School Starts. Everything from reading certain books to just relaxing. One thing I would recommend is trying to get your hands on "Sum and Substance." They are cds that you can listen to about the different classes you will have first year. You will quickly find that learning the law is only the beginning of doing well on tests. The better idea you have of the law the less time during school you will have to spend learning it and you will consequently have more time thinking about how the law applies in various situations. I would find out what classes you will have first semester and try and do some basic reading about the law in that area and/or listen to sum and substance.

[johnnyb]

What were your numbers if you don't mind answering?

[biggame]

What were your numbers if you don't mind answering?

[laurathenerd]

there is graduate housing for married students but I am not sure what they have for single students. I actually live in Orem and there are students that live all over the place. No matter where you live the commute is so easy and there is plenty of housing in Provo.

I know there is housing help for graduate students in general. I don't think the law school helps out that much because they just refer you to the housing office but there is so much housing you can easily find something on your own.

For those in need of single housing: As an UG at BYU, I can tell you that there is NO official graduate student housing. However, most grad students tend to live further away from campus (south of campus), or in Springville (which is REALLY south of campus - of course, we're talking like, 4 miles, not 50 ). If you live too close to campus in cheaper housing you're going to end up in a ward full of 19-year-old sophomore girls. Because you're a grad student you don't have to worry about living in BYU approved housing, which is very limiting. Try and get in contact with other single law students and find out where they live. Whatever you do, do not try and live on campus.

[biggame]

there is graduate housing for married students but I am not sure what they have for single students. I actually live in Orem and there are students that live all over the place. No matter where you live the commute is so easy and there is plenty of housing in Provo.

I know there is housing help for graduate students in general. I don't think the law school helps out that much because they just refer you to the housing office but there is so much housing you can easily find something on your own.

For those in need of single housing: As an UG at BYU, I can tell you that there is NO official graduate student housing. However, most grad students tend to live further away from campus (south of campus), or in Springville (which is REALLY south of campus - of course, we're talking like, 4 miles, not 50 ). If you live too close to campus in cheaper housing you're going to end up in a ward full of 19-year-old sophomore girls. Because you're a grad student you don't have to worry about living in BYU approved housing, which is very limiting. Try and get in contact with other single law students and find out where they live. Whatever you do, do not try and live on campus.

I do have some married law student friends who live in the married campus housing and they like it because it is so close to campus (they can walk) and it is relatively cheap just really old.

[cougarlive]

there is graduate housing for married students but I am not sure what they have for single students. I actually live in Orem and there are students that live all over the place. No matter where you live the commute is so easy and there is plenty of housing in Provo.

I know there is housing help for graduate students in general. I don't think the law school helps out that much because they just refer you to the housing office but there is so much housing you can easily find something on your own.

For those in need of single housing: As an UG at BYU, I can tell you that there is NO official graduate student housing. However, most grad students tend to live further away from campus (south of campus), or in Springville (which is REALLY south of campus - of course, we're talking like, 4 miles, not 50 ). If you live too close to campus in cheaper housing you're going to end up in a ward full of 19-year-old sophomore girls. Because you're a grad student you don't have to worry about living in BYU approved housing, which is very limiting. Try and get in contact with other single law students and find out where they live. Whatever you do, do not try and live on campus.

I do have some married law student friends who live in the married campus housing and they like it because it is so close to campus (they can walk) and it is relatively cheap just really old.

Not entirely true. The married housing at BYU consists of 2 choices, Wymount North, and Wymount South apartments. Wymount North apartments (which were built more recently then Wymount south) are some of the best in Provo (especially considering the price).

The South apartments are much smaller and older than the north apartments, and cost the same as the North. Anyone considering Wymount should know the procedure, every day at 4:00pm apartments are released and they are on a first come first serve basis. If you don't snatch them up in SECONDS they will be no longer be available. In order to be successful in your apartment snatching, it is necessary to get as many friends and family online at 3:58 refreshing hoping that at least one of them is able to snag an apartment for you.

For married Law Students Wymount North is hard to beat, especially since it is a 3 minute drive from the Law School (7 minute walk).

[biggame]

there is graduate housing for married students but I am not sure what they have for single students. I actually live in Orem and there are students that live all over the place. No matter where you live the commute is so easy and there is plenty of housing in Provo.

I know there is housing help for graduate students in general. I don't think the law school helps out that much because they just refer you to the housing office but there is so much housing you can easily find something on your own.

For those in need of single housing: As an UG at BYU, I can tell you that there is NO official graduate student housing. However, most grad students tend to live further away from campus (south of campus), or in Springville (which is REALLY south of campus - of course, we're talking like, 4 miles, not 50 ). If you live too close to campus in cheaper housing you're going to end up in a ward full of 19-year-old sophomore girls. Because you're a grad student you don't have to worry about living in BYU approved housing, which is very limiting. Try and get in contact with other single law students and find out where they live. Whatever you do, do not try and live on campus.

I do have some married law student friends who live in the married campus housing and they like it because it is so close to campus (they can walk) and it is relatively cheap just really old.

Not entirely true. The married housing at BYU consists of 2 choices, Wymount North, and Wymount South apartments. Wymount North apartments (which were built more recently then Wymount south) are some of the best in Provo (especially considering the price).

The South apartments are much smaller and older than the north apartments, and cost the same as the North. Anyone considering Wymount should know the procedure, every day at 4:00pm apartments are released and they are on a first come first serve basis. If you don't snatch them up in SECONDS they will be no longer be available. In order to be successful in your apartment snatching, it is necessary to get as many friends and family online at 3:58 refreshing hoping that at least one of them is able to snag an apartment for you.

For married Law Students Wymount North is hard to beat, especially since it is a 3 minute drive from the Law School (7 minute walk).

Which married housing did they change to single housing? They are newer and right next to some intramural fields? I was told that after they tore down Deseret Towers that they changed some married housing to single housing....do you know if that is true?

[cougarlive]

Yes its true....that was Wyview Housing which has transitioned to single student apartment style living. After they restructured BYU approved housing requirements (which limited how far away from campus single students could live), and with the demolition of DT, they had to convert Wyview over to single student housing.

[*devo*]

I just got accepted to BYU and I am leaning heavily towards attending. I want to work in Phoenix after I graduate.

Question: what are the job prospects like for top (25%), middle (50%), and bottom (75%) of the class?

My LSAT is below the 25% at BYU. If the LSAT is a good indicator of law school performance, I may be the bottom of my class. I will work like crazy to get the best grades I can, but I want to be realistic about my job prospects. I know the top 25% is set, but what about the rest? Thoughts?

[biggame]

I just got accepted to BYU and I am leaning heavily towards attending. I want to work in Phoenix after I graduate.

Question: what are the job prospects like for top (25%), middle (50%), and bottom (75%) of the class?

My LSAT is below the 25% at BYU. If the LSAT is a good indicator of law school performance, I may be the bottom of my class. I will work like crazy to get the best grades I can, but I want to be realistic about my job prospects. I know the top 25% is set, but what about the rest? Thoughts?

The truth is that it is tough to answer. First off, LSAT from what I understand and from my experience is not a good indicator of law school grades. I scored above the 75% for BYU and I am not in the top 20%. That is just my experience though and from other things I have read.

I am a 1L so I can't speak too much from personal knowledge about job prospects partly because I don't know what everyone's rank is. Your first year though, no matter what your grades are if you choose to participate in the externship progam that the school has you will get to do some fun work and get great legal experience. That isn't even guaranteed at other schools. If you are in the top 50% of the class you may be able to get an on campus interview or two in the spring of your first year where the firms are offering to pay you to work. Most of the firms this past spring were from Utah so if you are like me, who doesn't want to work in Utah even if it is paid, you will have to do some work to find something paid. If you do your research though, you will know that most 1L's even at Harvard don't get paid. We just aren't worth much to the firms.

At BYU you don't know how far down in the class you are you only know if you are in the bottom half so I can't speak for bottom 25%. Also, what makes things unusual is the current economy. There is a lot less hiring period right now in the legal field so yeah...hopefully that gives you some insight...the alumni network is powerful though and willing to help in any way.

[*devo*]

Thanks for your response.

I was wondering what BYU students think about the USNews rankings? BYU's reputation seems to transcend the USNews rankings, but it is still frustrating to see BYU slip from the 30's a few years ago to 46. Does anyone talk about the rankings? I met a faculty member at my school's law fair and he said BYU would not review apps until January this cycle in order to see the whole applicant pool and make sure they get the best students admitted and enrolled. So it seems BYU is somewhat concerned about rankings.

[biggame]

Thanks for your response.

I was wondering what BYU students think about the USNews rankings? BYU's reputation seems to transcend the USNews rankings, but it is still frustrating to see BYU slip from the 30's a few years ago to 46. Does anyone talk about the rankings? I met a faculty member at my school's law fair and he said BYU would not review apps until January this cycle in order to see the whole applicant pool and make sure they get the best students admitted and enrolled. So it seems BYU is somewhat concerned about rankings.

The student body rarely if ever discusses it. I think generally we are a bit disappointed with the slippage of the ranking, but most of us got into better schools any way and we came here for reasons other than the ranking. So generally we don't really talk, discuss, or dwell on the ranking at all. I have actually been surprised at how little our student body talks about it.

I do know that the Dean's are well aware of the rankings, like most Deans, and that the committee does try to increase the school's ranking. A career services person told me that one reason why we recently dropped in the ranking was because two minority women faculty left. I thought that was interesting. I have heard something else too but who knows.

I think you are right though, that BYU transcends the rankings. Really all of the connections the school has doesn't have much to do with the ranking. It has to do with the quality of the student body and the affiliation with the LDS church. The ranking I like to rest my cap on is that of the total number of Supreme Court Clerks. I think we are like 13 or something like that if you look at how many clerks the school has had since some year (95 I think.)

[aryncita]

.

[biggame]

A career services person told me that one reason why we recently dropped in the ranking was because two minority women faculty left.

How would that affect the school's ranking? As far as I know, USNWR doesn't consider faculty quality/composition at all (except indirectly through reputation scores), so it isn't obvious how that would cause BYU's ranking to drop.

Good question...that is just what she said.

[dusk]

Hey biggame,

Does anyone use Mac laptops at BYU? Or do you recommend we get a laptop from the suggested laptop initiative site?

Thanks!

[flhealth]

I guess its during 2L when they talk about posting threads in the appropriate forums....

[*devo*]

Hey biggame,

Does anyone use Mac laptops at BYU? Or do you recommend we get a laptop from the suggested laptop initiative site?

Thanks!

+1... and if Macs are not recommended is it okay to get a PC other than those on the BYU site? I don't want to drop $1200 on a laptop I don't find remotely aesthetically pleasing.

[CamilleElise]

Let me give you my perspective on any questions that you have about the school.

how do you handle living in provo
only kidding though. i'm at "the school up north" so i couldn't resist.

[SocalPizza]

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[SocalPizza]

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