Fordham a TTT school? Forum

[Darth Topher]

Does anyone out there think that Forham is a TTT (Top Tier Toilet) school?

Darth Topher, what's with these weird posts lately? did you even apply to law school yet? you seem insecure

I apologize for being a weirdo, I know what I am...(self aware weirdo)

I just like to try start "great discussions" on this board (no matter how weird they may be)

[nymentality]

How is a Fordham a TTT? Have you seen their placement!!! #7 as far as the top ten firms go.......SEVEN! The only real drawback is name recognition and the fact that you are stuck in NY after graduation w/o any other options. However, I think Fordham absolutely blows away the schools in it's 20-30 category in terms of admissions criteria and median salary upon graduation. The people who think Fordham is full of the kids who didn't get into NYU or Columbia need to realize this isn't thirty years ago. Everyone's coming here and they all have credentials....if anything, as the 15th most selective school in the country, Fordham should be higher up on the totem pole. A TTT it is not.

[Bankhead]

This be the GW of NY... both excellent schools that place very well. Most people would give up an arm to be able to attend Fordham, only an elitist would call it a TTT.

OHHH you mean FORHAM. Oh no, I don't believe that's ranked.

[commoner]

Well, I don't think it's a toilet: I just think prospects are really terrible under the median for what it takes to get in. Lots of people want NYC and Fordham is the school beneath NYU/CLS/Cornell. It's just that NYC is so desired by others that sub-median performance is a big risk. I think it's risky to be below the median at any non-T14 (and a couple of those), but in NYC, crap jobs are even worse because of the COL and hours.

U forgot HYS, Penn, UVA, Chicago, etc.

[Bankhead]

But that's the thing - I feel the same way about Cardozo. I mean, there are tons of Fordham/GW/BC/BU cross admits, and I just don't see Fordham unless you're dead set on NYC and would never consider being anywhere else. Cardozo numbers could get you into one of those pretty solid Midwestern state schools. You might not get NYC biglaw, but your chances of that aren't really going to be much worse than Cardozo, and the consolation prize is a million times better.

Are you talking about Indiana or Ohio State? BS. Those schools will only give you a 20% chance of biglaw, Fordham gives you 50% in the biggest market in the country. What's the consolation prize?

[GHH923]

But that's the thing - I feel the same way about Cardozo. I mean, there are tons of Fordham/GW/BC/BU cross admits, and I just don't see Fordham unless you're dead set on NYC and would never consider being anywhere else. Cardozo numbers could get you into one of those pretty solid Midwestern state schools. You might not get NYC biglaw, but your chances of that aren't really going to be much worse than Cardozo, and the consolation prize is a million times better.

Are you talking about Indiana or Ohio State? BS. Those schools will only give you a 20% chance of biglaw, Fordham gives you 50% in the biggest market in the country. What's the consolation prize?

Lower COL, debt to name two that I can think of

[KidA23]

Voted no; question is a bit ridiculous.

In terms of lay prestige though, I'd argue Fordham's biggest challenge is the reputation of its parent university (i.e. undergraduate college). We've talked about it before, but it's rare for a law school to significantly outpace its parent uni in terms of general reputation and prestige. The NYUs and GWs of the world are the exception, not the rule.

Like the rest of you, many years ago I researched colleges and now I'm doing the same for law schools. I see the name Fordham thrown around a lot more now than I did during the college search process, respective to each pursuit. I sort of perceived Fordham as a decent, business-y school in downtown Manhattan. It's hard for its law school - no matter how solid and selective - to manufacture its own prestige out of thin air.

[ari20dal7]

Are you talking about Indiana or Ohio State? BS. Those schools will only give you a 20% chance of biglaw, Fordham gives you 50% in the biggest market in the country. What's the consolation prize?

First, I was advocating the Midwestern schools over Cardozo, not Fordham. Second, Fordham isn't placing 50% in biglaw, and even if it does in a single year, that's not entirely reliable. Most importantly, the lower COL, debt, and potential to do something other than doc review make for a far better consolation prize. 70K of debt on a 60K salary in Indianapolis is doable, and you don't even have to be miserable or slave away in insurance defense. Choosing Cardozo instead means that you can double the debt, double the cost of living, and basically wipe away your chances of leaving the ID/doc review game. Some people get out of that cycle, but I'm really not into "biglaw or bust".

Also, if you insist on erecting the "Fordham vs. IU-B" strawman, numbers good enough to get into Fordham with no money probably get you a full ride at IU-B, meaning you're likely to graduate with something like 30K in debt, if not less. Fordham at sticker is probably going to leave you 200K in the hole after interest compounds. Sure, if you're one of the 30-40% who ends up in biglaw, this won't be that big a deal, although it's still going to suck for a few years. But if you're not? Well, you're boned forever. You might be able to rely on the federal LRAP, but the best case scenario is that you're finally out from under your debt ten years out, which would have happened in two had you been working the same job coming out of Indiana. Basically, Fordham gives you a better shot at biglaw than some rankings peers, but it also gives you the most debt and the worst downside risks. If you choose that, then more power to you: but don't pretend you're going to Vandy or something. Top third/half or bust.

[ari20dal7]

In terms of lay prestige though, I'd argue Fordham's biggest challenge is the reputation of its parent university (i.e. undergraduate college). We've talked about it before, but it's rare for a law school to significantly outpace its parent uni in terms of general reputation and prestige. The NYUs and GWs of the world are the exception, not the rule.

NYU has developed outstanding graduate programs across the board. It's not at all rare for a university's graduate programs to be significantly better than its undergrad: for example, basically any elite state school will display this trend (Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan, Texas, not sure about UVA, Wisconsin). It is more rare for the law school to just stand alone as an outstanding institution, to be sure, but the undergraduate college isn't necessarily determinative.

[in my eyes]

99% of the reason Fordham gets the label of a TTT on Biglawboard / XOXO etc is that it's a school well known for its striver types.

Those that don't get into NYU/Columbia/Cornell who are dead set on NYC tend to end up there. In order to afford the NYC COL these folks need Biglaw and it's kind of a Biglaw at all costs environment. This is coming from a friend who just finished 1L @ Fordham.

[tucker]

I also think the facilities help to shape the negative perception people have about Fordham.

[aximpod]

Voted no; question is a bit ridiculous.

In terms of lay prestige though, I'd argue Fordham's biggest challenge is the reputation of its parent university (i.e. undergraduate college). We've talked about it before, but it's rare for a law school to significantly outpace its parent uni in terms of general reputation and prestige. The NYUs and GWs of the world are the exception, not the rule.

Like the rest of you, many years ago I researched colleges and now I'm doing the same for law schools. I see the name Fordham thrown around a lot more now than I did during the college search process, respective to each pursuit. I sort of perceived Fordham as a decent, business-y school in downtown Manhattan. It's hard for its law school - no matter how solid and selective - to manufacture its own prestige out of thin air.

NYU has two of the best undergrad programs in the world - Tisch and Stern. How can you claim their undergrad schools are weak compared to their grad programs? Their grad programs are pretty top-notch across the board i.e. Stern MBA program is one of the top programs and NYU Med is highly ranked too.

and Fordham is not even in downtown. The law school is around midtown and the undergrad school is in the Bronx. NYU owns downtown NYC. They are one of the largest real estate owner and employer in NYC.


This topic got to be a joke. If Fordham is a TTT, then every school who fails to place 50% in biglaw is a TTT - that will include most if not all of the schools outside of the T20. All of the NYC schools beside NYU/CLS (Fordham, Cardozo, Brooklyn) have numbers that are way higher than similarly ranked school.

People complain that the competition is fierce in NYC but they fail to take into account the number of biglaw firms in NYC. It is the legal capital of the world. Why run away from competition.

[in my eyes]

Got NYC trolling?

[aximpod]

Got NYC trolling?

Maybe a little

But I can't think of another city with more opportunities for lawyers. D.C. is close but when you take into account the number of investment banks and other financial institutions in the NYC area with vast in-house practices, NYC is clearly the place to be.

[LoseItToMe]

Ken says TTT:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... TT#p530858

::corsair backs down..::

[krystal82]

Ari, I'm choosing Fordham over Vandy, and I know several people who've done the same. If you look at most of the Vault firms, you'll find tons of Fordham grads. The reason Fordham's prestige suffers is because it's grads compete with the NYU and Columbia giants, but if you're sure you want NYC, it's a great option.

Yes it loses most of it's edge when you leave NYC, but that's likely because people chose it because they want NYC. In the last few years, they've become more of national school, as people become more familiar with it's name.

Yes cost of living is an issue, but isn't this the case in any a big city? What about the GW grads that graduate in the bottom half or the BU grads? They will likely be in a similar situation. Fordham has similar placement to both schools, and it's criteria for getting isn't much different. If it's TTT, then you have to argue that both those schools are TTT.

Not all of us can get into the T14, and if schools outside the t14 are TTT, then i guess the majority of people willl be attending TTTs.

[tomthumb]

What places better for NYC Vandy or Fordham?

[ari20dal7]

Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:16 pm
Posts: 25 Ari, I'm choosing Fordham over Vandy, and I know several people who've done the same. If you look at most of the Vault firms, you'll find tons of Fordham grads. The reason Fordham's prestige suffers is because it's grads compete with the NYU and Columbia giants, but if you're sure you want NYC, it's a great option.

Yes it loses most of it's edge when you leave NYC, but that's likely because people chose it because they want NYC. In the last few years, they've become more of national school, as people become more familiar with it's name.

Yes cost of living is an issue, but isn't this the case in any a big city? What about the GW grads that graduate in the bottom half or the BU grads? They will likely be in a similar situation. Fordham has similar placement to both schools, and it's criteria for getting isn't much different. If it's TTT, then you have to argue that both those schools are TTT.

Not all of us can get into the T14, and if schools outside the t14 are TTT, then i guess the majority of people willl be attending TTTs.

Krystal - I never said Fordham was a TTT, nor am I going to a T14 (I did something similar to you and chose UCLA over three T14s). If you got a lot of money at Fordham and not much at Vandy, then your decision makes a lot of sense to me, particularly when NYC seems to be what you want. However, I maintain my position: Fordham is fourth banana in a legal market that draws a ton of T14 people and every top student from every TTT in the world, as well as having several lower ranked schools eager to claw your eyes out for a job. The downside risks are enormous. Honestly, I kind of agree with the position you ascribe to me concerning BU or GW: if I were looking at paying sticker there, I'd take the scholarship at a somewhat lower ranked school. Is that the right move for everyone? No, it surely isn't: but the fact remains that Fordham numbers can get you into better schools with better placement or a lot of money at schools with slightly lower biglaw placement and a hell of a lot less risk. If you want to take the risk at Fordham to enhance your NYC biglaw chances, then cool and I wish you the best of luck. But don't pretend the risk isn't there to justify that decision.

I'm just saying, if you're looking for a prestige whorish snob on here, you might find a better target

[ari20dal7]

What places better for NYC Vandy or Fordham?

I would describe that matchup as a wash, if anything with a slight edge to Vandy. However, the key issue is that Vandy absolutely slaughters Fordham everywhere else. I don't think it's a good bet to bank on one market and one market alone.

[Da Stain]

To follow on Ari:

I'll just say that your post is exactly the reason why Fordham gets the reputation it does, IMO, because for 150-200k, there's more to it for me than just job placement. You mention GW. People come ask about GW a lot, 'I'm interested in IP should I go to GW or GULC?' or things along those lines. I just don't think I've ever heard anyone ask anything about Fordham other than how many people/what's the possibility of making BigLaw. Not that that's a bad thing, but you say Fordham's prestige is relative to that of NYU and CLS, and I don't think thats the case. It's prestige is less because it seemingly only exists to send the top 1/3 of its class into BigLaw. There are no notable programs as far as I can tell, nothing that would make me say here's a reason to go here.

It may just be my perception but a lot of the schools between 15 and Fordham have something going for them besides 'We're in NY and 1/3 of our class gets BigLaw'. I have heard distinctive things about many of these schools and presumably someone getting into Fordham can get into GW, Vandy, WUSTL, W&L which all have other things going for them in addition to similarly good outside T-14 placement.

The equivalent to me is the way some people talk about GULC as a degree mill as though it is the TTT of the T-14. The difference is GULC has great programs, great professors, great opportunities. I just don't see that with Fordham compared to its peer schools. But to each his/her own...

[krystal82]

For NYC big law, I would assume similar placement. Outside big law, Fordham has a distinct edge, especially if you're considering the PI route. It's difficult to compare the two, because a lot of Vandy grads opt not to go to NYC. It's a great school, but below the median at Vandy will have a hard time with NYC big law. A lot more NYC firms recruit at Fordham.

[ari20dal7]

I'll just say that your post is exactly the reason why Fordham gets the reputation it does, IMO, because for 150-200k, there's more to it for me than just job placement. You mention GW. People come ask about GW a lot, 'I'm interested in IP should I go to GW or GULC?' or things along those lines. I just don't think I've ever heard anyone ask anything about Fordham other than how many people/what's the possibility of making BigLaw. Not that that's a bad thing, but you say Fordham's prestige is relative to that of NYU and CLS, and I don't think thats the case. It's prestige is less because it seemingly only exists to send the top 1/3 of its class into BigLaw. There are no notable programs as far as I can tell, nothing that would make me say here's a reason to go here.

It may just be my perception but a lot of the schools between 15 and Fordham have something going for them besides 'We're in NY and 1/3 of our class gets BigLaw'. I have heard distinctive things about many of these schools and presumably someone getting into Fordham can get into GW, Vandy, WUSTL, W&L which all have other things going for them in addition to similarly good outside T-14 placement.

The equivalent to me is the way some people talk about GULC as a degree mill as though it is the TTT of the T-14. The difference is GULC has great programs, great professors, great opportunities. I just don't see that with Fordham compared to its peer schools. But to each his/her own...

That's exactly what I was thinking. Great post.

Here's the thing: I'm willing to bet that employers know that too.

[krystal82]

If I was concerned exclusively with big law you might be right. However i'm willing to take a huge pay check cut to be in NY. I wasn't brought up in affulence and 60k is still decent money, you just may have to live outside the city.

If you have Fordham numbers, you'll likely get huge money at Washu/ W&L. While those are great schools, it doesn't mean that Fordham is lacking. It has better placement, similar student quality, and I would have to argue better location, but that's just me.

In any case, people choose schools for a variety of reasons, it just comes down to what is a better fit for your needs. As you said to each his own, i'm not anyone to judge.

[krystal82]

There a lot of things about Fordham that aid it's reputation, it's student quality, clinics, it's great for transactional work.
Many school outside the t14 are good schools, and I truly believe Fordham is among them.

[ari20dal7]

If I was concerned exclusively with big law you might be right. However i'm willing to take a huge pay check cut to be in NY. I wasn't brought up in affulence and 60k is still decent money, you just may have to live outside the city.

If you have Fordham numbers, you'll likely get huge money at Washu/ W&L. While those are great schools, it doesn't mean that Fordham is lacking. It has better placement, similar student quality, and I would have to argue better location, but that's just me.

In any case, people choose schools for a variety of reasons, it just comes down to what is a better fit for your needs. As you said to each his own, i'm not anyone to judge.

OK - fair enough. If NYC is just where you want to be, then you should probably get started networking there and all, and it's not as though Fordham doesn't put you in decent shape. Best of luck at Fordham.