New US News Rankings 2023-2024 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Realistically, it's...

Tier 1: Yale, Stanford
Tier 1.5: Harvard, Chicago
Tier 2: Columbia-Cornell
Tier 2.5: Georgetown, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Texas, WashU

It's YSH, CCN, and then the rest. SLS and HLS are peers

Just being honest I feel like all of the aggressive promoting of the concept of the T6 comes from NYU students. There's no serious story you can tell that makes NYU a full step above Penn, or even UVA really.

Yes. And 100% of the equating of Harvard and Chicago comes from Chicago students.

Agreed, but there are a few nuances.

I think NYU gives you an edge in NYC which is where most of the V10 home offices are, but that's really just a regional/alumni thing. Chi/NW give you an edge for Chicago, Berkeley for CA, and UVA for DC in the same way. I went to UVA and loved it, but someone interested in the Chicago market would be a fool to pick it over NW just based on rankings alone.

The biggest thing that distinguishes Chicago over the other T6 (or rest of the T14 for that matter) is clerkship opportunities (the same can perhaps be said of UVA ), but we don't need a separate band to make that minute distinction. And that probably has a lot to do with self-selection (both politically and for practice preference).

That said, there's no denying that higher ranked firms have a preference for higher ranked T14s. All else held equal, median at NYU will give you a better shot at a V10 than median at GULC. But that's just a sliding scale - again, we don't need to separate schools out into bands like T6, T10, etc. to point that out.

[Anonymous User]

Realistically, it's...

Tier 1: Yale, Stanford
Tier 1.5: Harvard, Chicago
Tier 2: Columbia-Cornell
Tier 2.5: Georgetown, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Texas, WashU

It's YSH, CCN, and then the rest. SLS and HLS are peers

Just being honest I feel like all of the aggressive promoting of the concept of the T6 comes from NYU students. There's no serious story you can tell that makes NYU a full step above Penn, or even UVA really.

Yes. And 100% of the equating of Harvard and Chicago comes from Chicago students.

non Chicago student here. I agree with the tier 1, tier 1.5 etc laid out in the first quote. H is closer to Chicago than it is to S

Stanford is not on par with Yale. Look at SCOTUS clerkship placement.

[Anonymous User]

Everyone I know at Georgetown who wanted biglaw got it. The top people get COAs and the bottom people miiight strike out. I defy anyone to tell me it's that different than Columbia. Don't tell me it's a cope

Bottom of the class at CLS doesn't strike out, they end up at like Cadwaladar or Fried Frank

Lol. Even Harvard has strike outs and tons who are upset or at least miffed with the results. CLS has its fair share of poor bidders or inept interviewers as well who never get the desired biglaw.

Regarding Gtown, self-selection is a strong driver of results, just like Harvard or Yale or any school. CLS, Cornell, etc. appeal to big law or bust types and Gtown and Harvard and to some degree other schools appeal to public interest or federal work. Ranking systems that do not take this into account will decline in ranking system prestige. Rankings are only good if they match the perception of the combined legal world and lay public opinion, otherwise they will be ignored, just like the mirad of ignored law school rankings from publications that are not USNWR. USNWR has existed for a few decades, the law schools have existed for 150 years. USNWR either matches reality or gets tossed in the dustbin of historical ranking systems.

[Anonymous User]

Realistically, it's...

Tier 1: Yale, Stanford
Tier 1.5: Harvard, Chicago
Tier 2: Columbia-Cornell
Tier 2.5: Georgetown, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Texas, WashU

It's YSH, CCN, and then the rest. SLS and HLS are peers

Just being honest I feel like all of the aggressive promoting of the concept of the T6 comes from NYU students. There's no serious story you can tell that makes NYU a full step above Penn, or even UVA really.

Yes. And 100% of the equating of Harvard and Chicago comes from Chicago students.

non Chicago student here. I agree with the tier 1, tier 1.5 etc laid out in the first quote. H is closer to Chicago than it is to S

SLS, HLS, and Chicago are all similar and probably worth being in the same tier. The only reason Chicago isn't clearly in the tier is because it historically hasn't had the same prestige as HYS. Peer scores from US News (probably the only metric US News gets right) back this up. That may change. But the SLS>HLS myth is a myth. I've yet to meet a person in the real world (judges, hiring partners, DOJ Honors attorneys) who thinks SLS is superior. But maybe that's because I'm an East Coast elitist who knows the DC and NYC markets and has therefore never seen an SLS grad.

[Anonymous User]

Realistically, it's...

Tier 1: Yale, Stanford
Tier 1.5: Harvard, Chicago
Tier 2: Columbia-Cornell
Tier 2.5: Georgetown, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Texas, WashU

It's YSH, CCN, and then the rest. SLS and HLS are peers

Just being honest I feel like all of the aggressive promoting of the concept of the T6 comes from NYU students. There's no serious story you can tell that makes NYU a full step above Penn, or even UVA really.

Yes. And 100% of the equating of Harvard and Chicago comes from Chicago students.

non Chicago student here. I agree with the tier 1, tier 1.5 etc laid out in the first quote. H is closer to Chicago than it is to S

Stanford is not on par with Yale. Look at SCOTUS clerkship placement.

sure. doesn't mean SLS and HLS are peers. If it matters do 1. yale 1.25 stanford 1.5 Harvard Chicago etc

[Anonymous User]

But the SLS>HLS myth is a myth. I've yet to meet a person in the real world (judges, hiring partners, DOJ Honors attorneys) who think SLS is superior. But maybe that's because I'm an East Coast elitist who knows the DC and NYC markets and has therefore never seen an SLS grad.

That probably explains most of it. Why would SLS grads slum it in NYC/DC when they have CA options?

[Anonymous User]

But the SLS>HLS myth is a myth. I've yet to meet a person in the real world (judges, hiring partners, DOJ Honors attorneys) who think SLS is superior. But maybe that's because I'm an East Coast elitist who knows the DC and NYC markets and has therefore never seen an SLS grad.

That probably explains most of it. Why would SLS grads slum it in NYC/DC when they have CA options?

True, they're probably saving up money for when they move to Texas

[Anonymous User]

SLS, HLS, and Chicago are all similar and probably worth being in the same tier. The only reason Chicago isn't clearly in the tier is because it historically hasn't had the same prestige as HYS. Peer scores from US News (probably the only metric US News gets right) back this up. That may change. But the SLS>HLS myth is a myth. I've yet to meet a person in the real world (judges, hiring partners, DOJ Honors attorneys) who thinks SLS is superior. But maybe that's because I'm an East Coast elitist who knows the DC and NYC markets and has therefore never seen an SLS grad.

Stanford is much closer to being a Yale-like "finishing school" whereas HLS is very solidly in the vocational school camp. A much higher proportion of people at HLS are going to law school for practical reasons - to make a good living. A much higher proportion of people at SLS went to HYPSM undergrad and are going to law school for non-survival reasons. The inputs are pretty different as far as differences within the t-14 go

[Anonymous User]

SLS, HLS, and Chicago are all similar and probably worth being in the same tier. The only reason Chicago isn't clearly in the tier is because it historically hasn't had the same prestige as HYS. Peer scores from US News (probably the only metric US News gets right) back this up. That may change. But the SLS>HLS myth is a myth. I've yet to meet a person in the real world (judges, hiring partners, DOJ Honors attorneys) who thinks SLS is superior. But maybe that's because I'm an East Coast elitist who knows the DC and NYC markets and has therefore never seen an SLS grad.

Stanford is much closer to being a Yale-like "finishing school" whereas HLS is very solidly in the vocational school camp. A much higher proportion of people at HLS are going to law school for practical reasons - to make a good living. A much higher proportion of people at SLS went to HYPSM undergrad and are going to law school for non-survival reasons. The inputs are pretty different as far as differences within the t-14 go

I largely agree with this, HLS has always been known as much more corporate and less academic/philosophical. I assume this is just pointing out fun facts

[Anonymous User]

Realistically, it's...

Tier 1: Yale, Stanford
Tier 1.5: Harvard, Chicago
Tier 2: Columbia-Cornell
Tier 2.5: Georgetown, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Texas, WashU

It's YSH, CCN, and then the rest. SLS and HLS are peers

Just being honest I feel like all of the aggressive promoting of the concept of the T6 comes from NYU students. There's no serious story you can tell that makes NYU a full step above Penn, or even UVA really.

Yes. And 100% of the equating of Harvard and Chicago comes from Chicago students.

non Chicago student here. I agree with the tier 1, tier 1.5 etc laid out in the first quote. H is closer to Chicago than it is to S

Chicago Ruby here. So glad I took the money. H offers the better lay prestige but within legal circles Chicago is up there too. If you want to actually learn doctrinal law from professors who churn out high quality work and get significant time with them (i.e., if you’re into the law as law and like the substance and theory of it), it’s a fantastic place. Smaller too.

[Anonymous User]

Realistically, it's...

Tier 1: Yale, Stanford
Tier 1.5: Harvard, Chicago
Tier 2: Columbia-Cornell
Tier 2.5: Georgetown, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Texas, WashU

It's YSH, CCN, and then the rest. SLS and HLS are peers

Just being honest I feel like all of the aggressive promoting of the concept of the T6 comes from NYU students. There's no serious story you can tell that makes NYU a full step above Penn, or even UVA really.

Yes. And 100% of the equating of Harvard and Chicago comes from Chicago students.

non Chicago student here. I agree with the tier 1, tier 1.5 etc laid out in the first quote. H is closer to Chicago than it is to S

Yes, in terms of outcomes (which is what should matter to 0Ls). But in terms of stats, HLS students are equal to or better than SLS students; SLS students tend to come from more pedigreed (and family money) backgrounds which is part of the reason they outperform for unicorn jobs and clerkships.

[Anonymous User]

Realistically, it's...

Tier 1: Yale, Stanford
Tier 1.5: Harvard, Chicago
Tier 2: Columbia-Cornell
Tier 2.5: Georgetown, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Texas, WashU

It's YSH, CCN, and then the rest. SLS and HLS are peers

Just being honest I feel like all of the aggressive promoting of the concept of the T6 comes from NYU students. There's no serious story you can tell that makes NYU a full step above Penn, or even UVA really.

Yes. And 100% of the equating of Harvard and Chicago comes from Chicago students.

non Chicago student here. I agree with the tier 1, tier 1.5 etc laid out in the first quote. H is closer to Chicago than it is to S

Yes, in terms of outcomes (which is what should matter to 0Ls). But in terms of stats, HLS students are equal to or better than SLS students; SLS students tend to come from more pedigreed (and family money) backgrounds which is part of the reason they outperform for unicorn jobs and clerkships.

"But in terms of stats, HLS students are equal to or better than SLS students; SLS students tend to come from more pedigreed (and family money) backgrounds which is part of the reason they outperform for unicorn jobs and clerkships."

I feel like I'm missing something. The second sentence doesn't follow from the first. In any case, opportunities from both schools are equal. Outcomes, however, reflect different populations. There's a reason there are only like 5 SLS people at Wachtell, but dozens from Harvard.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, in terms of outcomes (which is what should matter to 0Ls). But in terms of stats, HLS students are equal to or better than SLS students; SLS students tend to come from more pedigreed (and family money) backgrounds which is part of the reason they outperform for unicorn jobs and clerkships.

in terms of GPA and LSAT, harvard, SLS and YLS are all on par. It's the softs that SLS and particularly YLS students have that (on average) go beyond, and they correlate with that pedigreed background which then correlates with the unicorn outcomes

[crazywafflez]

Feel free to slam me, but as a lowly non T14 grad who works in Middle USA, in a non major market, (did regional BL and now with feds), I blindly see it as follows:
Tier 1: Yale
Tier 2: H and S
Tier 3: Chi and maybe C?
Tier 4: The rest of the T13.
Tier 5: Gtown and Vandy
Tier 6: UT and UCLA (maybe WashU?)
Tier 7: BC, USC, BU, Fordham
Tier 8: GW, Emory, W&M, W&L, UNC etc.

I think in actuality there's an argument that S is ahead of H and Chi is ahead of C and Gotwn is ahead Vandy. I also think there's an argument that essentially everything after YSH all the T13 are quite comparable. Chi certainly is becoming a power house, but I think that's been in more recent years?

[Anonymous User]

Is this an official leak or a prediction? What explains such a drastic CLS drop relative to every previous iteration?

Damning that the top two schools maintain no intellectual integrity whatsoever.

it's official
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-g ... l-rankings

Yeah conservatives should all go to Notre Dame

As well as moderates and liberals who want to test their ideas against those of others.

Can we stop glorifying NDLS? I know many moderates and liberals, and even conservatives, who are not satisfied with their experience there. Notre Dame is great at marketing but terrible at actually delivering.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, in terms of outcomes (which is what should matter to 0Ls). But in terms of stats, HLS students are equal to or better than SLS students; SLS students tend to come from more pedigreed (and family money) backgrounds which is part of the reason they outperform for unicorn jobs and clerkships.

in terms of GPA and LSAT, harvard, SLS and YLS are all on par. It's the softs that SLS and particularly YLS students have that go beyond, and they correlate with that pedigreed background which then correlates with the unicorn outcomes

There's literally no evidence of that, except that SLS has a higher percentage of people clerking. And that's not because there's a wealth of HLS students who shopped their resumes around only to have them cast aside by sneering judges who had already filled their chambers with SLS clerks

[Anonymous User]

As a V10 partner can confirm that none of this matters. Go to the best school that's not TTTT and where you're not borrowing sticker and kill it 1L.

[Anonymous User]

They keep shuffling the rankings to draw attention and somehow stay relevant, but no matter what the latest rankings show, I always view law schools in this order when I'm looking at credentials.
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford
3. Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn
4. Rest of T14
5. UCLA, Texas, Washu
6. Fordham
7. Rest

For what it's worth, I'm a V20 senior associate that went to HLS.

Same with law firm rankings I suppose. From a certain point you stop caring and whatever rankings you remember from your junior associate days just stay stuck in your head.

[Anonymous User]

There is a growing rumor that Texas A&M Law is somehow going to fly into the Top 30 even though they still struggle to get any Biglaw/FC traction outside of the valedictorian every year. The whole system is bullshit.

[Anonymous User]

But the SLS>HLS myth is a myth. I've yet to meet a person in the real world (judges, hiring partners, DOJ Honors attorneys) who think SLS is superior. But maybe that's because I'm an East Coast elitist who knows the DC and NYC markets and has therefore never seen an SLS grad.

That probably explains most of it. Why would SLS grads slum it in NYC/DC when they have CA options?

Idk, I'm going to a DC firm that's known to be an SLS destination. Seems quite a lot of SLS people want DC for the same reasons that Y, H, and other T14 gunners want DC...

[Anonymous User]

They keep shuffling the rankings to draw attention and somehow stay relevant, but no matter what the latest rankings show, I always view law schools in this order when I'm looking at credentials.
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford
3. Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn
4. Rest of T14
5. UCLA, Texas, Washu
6. Fordham
7. Rest

For what it's worth, I'm a V20 senior associate that went to HLS.

Same with law firm rankings I suppose. From a certain point you stop caring and whatever rankings you remember from your junior associate days just stay stuck in your head.

It's a mystery to me why P is on a separate tier from the rest of T14.

[Anonymous User]

They keep shuffling the rankings to draw attention and somehow stay relevant, but no matter what the latest rankings show, I always view law schools in this order when I'm looking at credentials.
1. Yale
2. Harvard, Stanford
3. Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Penn
4. Rest of T14
5. UCLA, Texas, Washu
6. Fordham
7. Rest

For what it's worth, I'm a V20 senior associate that went to HLS.

Same with law firm rankings I suppose. From a certain point you stop caring and whatever rankings you remember from your junior associate days just stay stuck in your head.

It's a mystery to me why P is on a separate tier from the rest of T14.

Years ago back when I was doing OCI, Wachtell only went to OCIs at top 7 schools including Penn. Also, over my years of practice, I never felt that NYU has any advantage over Penn. But then Columbia never really seemed better than NYU either.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Everyone I know at Georgetown who wanted biglaw got it. The top people get COAs and the bottom people miiight strike out. I defy anyone to tell me it's that different than Columbia. Don't tell me it's a cope

For 0Ls: GULC is far, far apart in BL+FC placement from Columbia (or Penn, UVA, Duke) to a degree that's not remotely explaining by self-selection and it's been that way for over a decade.

Just focus on the average cost and the percent of students who get their desired job. None of the other fluff matters.

[Anonymous User]

Realistically, it's...

Tier 1: Yale, Stanford
Tier 1.5: Harvard, Chicago
Tier 2: Columbia-Cornell
Tier 2.5: Georgetown, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Texas, WashU

It's YSH, CCN, and then the rest. SLS and HLS are peers

+1. No one in practice buys this “Yale Stanford Chicago” invention of US News. And no one will buy into Duke or whatever above Columbia and NYU either.

[Anonymous User]

Realistically, it's...

Tier 1: Yale, Stanford
Tier 1.5: Harvard, Chicago
Tier 2: Columbia-Cornell
Tier 2.5: Georgetown, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Texas, WashU

It's YSH, CCN, and then the rest. SLS and HLS are peers

+1. No one in practice buys this “Yale Stanford Chicago” invention of US News. And no one will buy into Duke or whatever above Columbia and NYU either.

Idk if people in practice bought into any of the rankings ever. I'm sure if I asked one of the partners to list the schools he would probably say Yale and Harvard are the best and then the T14 and would have no fucking clue what I meant by CCN beyond like yeah I guess Columbia, Chicago, and NYU are good schools. This list is definitely for (1) insecure undergrads going to law school who base their self worth on rankings and (2) those without access to inside information. I do suspect that if Columbia stays behind Penn for like 3 years, it will start losing cross-admit wars with them for several students that in the past would have taken Columbia over Penn in a heartbreak. Yes, this is incredibly dumb, but that's the law for you.