NYU v Georgetown: Which Should I Choose? Forum

[The Lsat Airbender]

In fact, GT students are so married to PI they'd rather not be lawyers than take BigLaw jobs.

Savage, but yeah, that's kind of my point. NYU 1Ls who learn that international human-rights law doesn't exist ,and being a public defender has its share of difficulties and they don't have the grades to clerk, frequently then go "oh hey Morgan Lewis ". GULC students are less likely to have that option so they go work for the PD anyway, or end up unemployed.

Maybe there's evidence that Georgetown students are remarkably more PI-minded at matriculation than their NYU counterparts but that would amaze me.

[nixy]

In fact, GT students are so married to PI they'd rather not be lawyers than take BigLaw jobs.

Savage, but yeah, that's kind of my point. NYU 1Ls who learn that international human-rights law doesn't exist ,and being a public defender has its share of difficulties and they don't have the grades to clerk, frequently then go "oh hey Morgan Lewis ". GULC students are less likely to have that option so they go work for the PD anyway, or end up unemployed.

Maybe there's evidence that Georgetown students are remarkably more PI-minded at matriculation than their NYU counterparts but that would amaze me.

Okay, I get your point, but I still don't think it quite captures the PI/gov hiring going on (I’d argue that Georgetown captures more fed-wannabes and NYU has more “practice at The Hague” wannabes). But again, I realize I can’t quantify that.

[QContinuum]

Okay, I get your point, but I still don't think it quite captures the PI/gov hiring going on (I’d argue that Georgetown captures more fed-wannabes and NYU has more “practice at The Hague” wannabes). But again, I realize I can’t quantify that.

To avoid confusing OP (who evidently wants to be confused in favor of Georgetown), to be clear, are you taking the position that Georgetown is equally as strong as NYU, in terms of placement power?

[kidkasparov123]

Okay, I get your point, but I still don't think it quite captures the PI/gov hiring going on (I’d argue that Georgetown captures more fed-wannabes and NYU has more “practice at The Hague” wannabes). But again, I realize I can’t quantify that.

To avoid confusing OP (who evidently wants to be confused in favor of Georgetown), to be clear, are you taking the position that Georgetown is equally as strong as NYU, in terms of placement power?

Hello, Q. Sorry for a late response. To respond:

You wrote: "But that logic doesn't hold. What's the basis for assuming that the only GT students who tried to land BigLaw were the 100 GT students who ended up at law firms of any size? Do you think GT students who try, but fail, to land BigLaw will inevitably join a small law firm instead?"

Yes, I think that's correct. Most GT students who tried biglaw and couldn't get it probably filtered into lower firms. Very few people will abandon that opportunity for PI that pays less, especially if they're interested in private practice. This effect is consistent across schools as you go below GT: worse law schools have higher placement in smaller firms, but not necessarily higher placement in PI. Also, GT attracts students who are uniquely interested in government and PI, so the high PI numbers reflect that.

"And what about the 18% of GT students who struck out of the practice of law entirely (i.e., did not find any work as a lawyer, anywhere, at any salary)? Did they also "not want" to go into BigLaw - to the extent they'd rather not work as a lawyer than take a BigLaw job?"

The 18% you're referring to (correct me if I'm wrong) is mostly made up of students employed in jobs that didn't require bar passage. Many GT students who go into government/PI use their degree to gain an advantage, even though their jobs (especially on the Hill) don't require a J.D. So you are again correct: they likely didn't want BigLaw, as this is consistent with what we know about those students.


We likely won't convince each other, but I wanted to put this info out for future 0Ls. Thanks.

[cavalier1138]

Okay, I get your point, but I still don't think it quite captures the PI/gov hiring going on (I’d argue that Georgetown captures more fed-wannabes and NYU has more “practice at The Hague” wannabes). But again, I realize I can’t quantify that.

To avoid confusing OP (who evidently wants to be confused in favor of Georgetown), to be clear, are you taking the position that Georgetown is equally as strong as NYU, in terms of placement power?

Hello, Q. Sorry for a late response. To respond:

You wrote: "But that logic doesn't hold. What's the basis for assuming that the only GT students who tried to land BigLaw were the 100 GT students who ended up at law firms of any size? Do you think GT students who try, but fail, to land BigLaw will inevitably join a small law firm instead?"

Yes, I think that's correct. Most GT students who tried biglaw and couldn't get it probably filtered into lower firms. Very few people will abandon that opportunity for PI that pays less, especially if they're interested in private practice. This effect is consistent across schools as you go below GT: worse law schools have higher placement in smaller firms, but not necessarily higher placement in PI. Also, GT attracts students who are uniquely interested in government and PI, so the high PI numbers reflect that.

"And what about the 18% of GT students who struck out of the practice of law entirely (i.e., did not find any work as a lawyer, anywhere, at any salary)? Did they also "not want" to go into BigLaw - to the extent they'd rather not work as a lawyer than take a BigLaw job?"

The 18% you're referring to (correct me if I'm wrong) is mostly made up of students employed in jobs that didn't require bar passage. Many GT students who go into government/PI use their degree to gain an advantage, even though their jobs (especially on the Hill) don't require a J.D. So you are again correct: they likely didn't want BigLaw, as this is consistent with what we know about those students.


We likely won't convince each other, but I wanted to put this info out for future 0Ls. Thanks.

But what information are you putting out there? This post is 100% speculation, and you literally have a Georgetown student in this thread telling you that you're incorrect.

You have no idea whether the students who aren't working as lawyers are in JD Advantage positions, and that's an extremely dangerous assumption to make. You have to take the numbers at face value, not at the value you wish they had.

[nixy]

Okay, I get your point, but I still don't think it quite captures the PI/gov hiring going on (I’d argue that Georgetown captures more fed-wannabes and NYU has more “practice at The Hague” wannabes). But again, I realize I can’t quantify that.

To avoid confusing OP (who evidently wants to be confused in favor of Georgetown), to be clear, are you taking the position that Georgetown is equally as strong as NYU, in terms of placement power?

No, I’m not claiming the two are equal. I think each school plays to a slightly different crowd wrt self-selection, and I think it’s a factor that depresses Georgetown’s biglaw numbers, but I don’t think they’re equal.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Also, GT attracts students who are uniquely interested in government and PI, so the high PI numbers reflect that.

Really? More interested in government and PI than Yale, NYU, Michigan, Berkeley, Notre Dame, GW, CUNY students? More interested than students at state flagships?

I find that hard to believe. Would love to see the factual basis for the bolded claim.

[nixy]

TBF, I think a lot of people who are BigFed or bust find GT especially appealing as the top school in DC. Of course there are lots of good reasons for someone who’s BigFed or bust to go to any of the other schools you’ve listed (like obviously go to Yale over GT if you get in, especially because GT seems pretty stingy with aid). But being in DC during law school, if you want BigFed, is helpful.

(Of course BigFed/bust is only a small subset of PI/gov, and I can’t begin to claim how many GT students fall into this category, so this shouldn’t be overestimated.)

[The Lsat Airbender]

TBF, I think a lot of people who are BigFed or bust find GT especially appealing as the top school in DC. Of course there are lots of good reasons for someone who’s BigFed or bust to go to any of the other schools you’ve listed (like obviously go to Yale over GT if you get in, especially because GT seems pretty stingy with aid). But being in DC during law school, if you want BigFed, is helpful.

(Of course BigFed/bust is only a small subset of PI/gov, and I can’t begin to claim how many GT students fall into this category, so this shouldn’t be overestimated.)

I considered this, but, as you say, unless like 80 people a year are going straight to the federal gov't from GULC then it doesn't really substantiate the effect that kidkasparov claims to exist.

[kidkasparov123]

Okay, I get your point, but I still don't think it quite captures the PI/gov hiring going on (I’d argue that Georgetown captures more fed-wannabes and NYU has more “practice at The Hague” wannabes). But again, I realize I can’t quantify that.

To avoid confusing OP (who evidently wants to be confused in favor of Georgetown), to be clear, are you taking the position that Georgetown is equally as strong as NYU, in terms of placement power?

Hello, Q. Sorry for a late response. To respond:

You wrote: "But that logic doesn't hold. What's the basis for assuming that the only GT students who tried to land BigLaw were the 100 GT students who ended up at law firms of any size? Do you think GT students who try, but fail, to land BigLaw will inevitably join a small law firm instead?"

Yes, I think that's correct. Most GT students who tried biglaw and couldn't get it probably filtered into lower firms. Very few people will abandon that opportunity for PI that pays less, especially if they're interested in private practice. This effect is consistent across schools as you go below GT: worse law schools have higher placement in smaller firms, but not necessarily higher placement in PI. Also, GT attracts students who are uniquely interested in government and PI, so the high PI numbers reflect that.

"And what about the 18% of GT students who struck out of the practice of law entirely (i.e., did not find any work as a lawyer, anywhere, at any salary)? Did they also "not want" to go into BigLaw - to the extent they'd rather not work as a lawyer than take a BigLaw job?"

The 18% you're referring to (correct me if I'm wrong) is mostly made up of students employed in jobs that didn't require bar passage. Many GT students who go into government/PI use their degree to gain an advantage, even though their jobs (especially on the Hill) don't require a J.D. So you are again correct: they likely didn't want BigLaw, as this is consistent with what we know about those students.


We likely won't convince each other, but I wanted to put this info out for future 0Ls. Thanks.

But what information are you putting out there? This post is 100% speculation, and you literally have a Georgetown student in this thread telling you that you're incorrect.

You have no idea whether the students who aren't working as lawyers are in JD Advantage positions, and that's an extremely dangerous assumption to make. You have to take the numbers at face value, not at the value you wish they had.

Hello. No, I don't think it's speculation. I'm looking at the ABA employment numbers and the 18% number cited is mostly JD Advantage and Law School/Uni funded. Many public interest-minded schools (Yale, NYU, GT, etc) have a larger percentage of students going this route for the reasons mentioned. Also, they often take public interest fellowships (which are listed as law school funded employment) that hold them over while they are getting a clearance. This is info I've gathered from my own research, as well as from conversations with students and alumni.

[kidkasparov123]

Also, GT attracts students who are uniquely interested in government and PI, so the high PI numbers reflect that.

Really? More interested in government and PI than Yale, NYU, Michigan, Berkeley, Notre Dame, GW, CUNY students? More interested than students at state flagships?

I find that hard to believe. Would love to see the factual basis for the bolded claim.

Hello. I think a higher proportion of GT students are interested in government, definitely. General PI (ACLU, public defenders, etc.)? Perhaps not. But yes, I definitely think GT attracts a high proportion of students who are solely interested in gov/PI, and this accounts for the phenomena discussed in this thread.

[cavalier1138]

Hello. No, I don't think it's speculation. I'm looking at the ABA employment numbers and the 18% number cited is mostly JD Advantage and Law School/Uni funded. Many public interest-minded schools (Yale, NYU, GT, etc) have a larger percentage of students going this route for the reasons mentioned. Also, they often take public interest fellowships (which are listed as law school funded employment) that hold them over while they are getting a clearance. This is info I've gathered from my own research, as well as from conversations with students and alumni.

How is it not speculation? You're speculating that students who report "JD Advantage" jobs wanted to go that route. You're speculating that students who didn't get biglaw only ended up in smaller firms. And you're speculating that Georgetown has a unique pull for students interested in PI (which is, as others have mentioned, unsupported by the numbers).

You're correct that school-funded positions at top schools tend to indicate decent PI fellowships, but Georgetown's numbers in that area aren't an outlier.

Again, in your particular situation, Georgetown would be a fine choice. I just don't understand why you have to do these absurd mental gymnastics to convince yourself that there isn't an appreciable difference in outcomes between Georgetown and NYU.

[kidkasparov123]

Hello. No, I don't think it's speculation. I'm looking at the ABA employment numbers and the 18% number cited is mostly JD Advantage and Law School/Uni funded. Many public interest-minded schools (Yale, NYU, GT, etc) have a larger percentage of students going this route for the reasons mentioned. Also, they often take public interest fellowships (which are listed as law school funded employment) that hold them over while they are getting a clearance. This is info I've gathered from my own research, as well as from conversations with students and alumni.

How is it not speculation? You're speculating that students who report "JD Advantage" jobs wanted to go that route. You're speculating that students who didn't get biglaw only ended up in smaller firms. And you're speculating that Georgetown has a unique pull for students interested in PI (which is, as others have mentioned, unsupported by the numbers).

You're correct that school-funded positions at top schools tend to indicate decent PI fellowships, but Georgetown's numbers in that area aren't an outlier.

Again, in your particular situation, Georgetown would be a fine choice. I just don't understand why you have to do these absurd mental gymnastics to convince yourself that there isn't an appreciable difference in outcomes between Georgetown and NYU.

Well, speculation is postulating without evidence, which is not what I'm doing. I'm basing my argument off of a combination of conversations with students and alumni, and a common-sense interpretation of the ABA employment data. I think to say that GT doesn't have unique pull for government, or that students who get biglaw then go into PI rather than smaller firms, is shakier speculation that conflicts with general trends or what the students themselves say.

Also, to clarify, I definitely think there's an appreciable difference in outcomes between GT and NYU. I'm only saying that GT's quality outcomes earn it a place in the T14.

[cavalier1138]

Hello. No, I don't think it's speculation. I'm looking at the ABA employment numbers and the 18% number cited is mostly JD Advantage and Law School/Uni funded. Many public interest-minded schools (Yale, NYU, GT, etc) have a larger percentage of students going this route for the reasons mentioned. Also, they often take public interest fellowships (which are listed as law school funded employment) that hold them over while they are getting a clearance. This is info I've gathered from my own research, as well as from conversations with students and alumni.

How is it not speculation? You're speculating that students who report "JD Advantage" jobs wanted to go that route. You're speculating that students who didn't get biglaw only ended up in smaller firms. And you're speculating that Georgetown has a unique pull for students interested in PI (which is, as others have mentioned, unsupported by the numbers).

You're correct that school-funded positions at top schools tend to indicate decent PI fellowships, but Georgetown's numbers in that area aren't an outlier.

Again, in your particular situation, Georgetown would be a fine choice. I just don't understand why you have to do these absurd mental gymnastics to convince yourself that there isn't an appreciable difference in outcomes between Georgetown and NYU.

Well, speculation is postulating without evidence, which is not what I'm doing. I'm basing my argument off of a combination of conversations with students and alumni, and a common-sense interpretation of the ABA employment data. I think to say that GT doesn't have unique pull for government, or that students who get biglaw then go into PI rather than smaller firms, is shakier speculation that conflicts with general trends or what the students themselves say.

Also, to clarify, I definitely think there's an appreciable difference in outcomes between GT and NYU. I'm only saying that GT's quality outcomes earn it a place in the T14.

Neither anecdotes nor "common sense" are evidence, especially when you start twisting the numbers of students who aren't working as lawyers after graduation into a positive stat.

Again, a Georgetown student in this thread told you that your assumptions are incorrect. Why do you only trust the students/alums the admissions office puts you in touch with?

[trebekismyhero]

Just go to GT, it is apparent that is where you want to go.

[The Lsat Airbender]

I definitely think

disagree

[plurilingue]

There is a huge gap between these schools for anything lawyers want to do: large law firm, PI, clerkships, academia. But there is a chasm of difference for prestigious outcomes.

For example, NYU is much closer to Yale for placement in elite large law firms than it is to Georgetown irrespective of whether you adjust for class size or not. Look at the associate ranks at firms like WLRK, DPW, Cleary, etc. for the two schools and come back here. This is an absurd thread and I’m shocked it has gone on this long.