Yale full COA Forum

[nixy]

Keep in mind, though, Chicago has that weird 180-point grading scale. I’m not sure that “median” is clear or that worse an outcome than an equivalent grade range at Yale.

[LBJ's Hair]

See, to me, the worst case scenario isn't OP graduating unemployed with no job prospects. (Although I'd still rather be the worst student in my class at YLS than the worst student my class at Chicago with the Ruby. The former could still go to a V10, latter most definitely isn't.) It's that OP can't pursue his/her dream of doing something other than working at [big law firm]. There's a much higher risk of that at Chicago than there is at YLS.

My read of the OP is that the biglaw route is immaterial and they'd be happy as a public defender in [American city], although obviously it would be fun/fulfilling to do something more prestigious. That should be perfectly doable from either school and is my baseline for the worst case.

In that scenario, I'd rather not have to deal with COAP -- income over $50k gets clawed back, you have to worry about spousal income if that ever comes up, etc. Plenty of people do manage a free lunch from loan assistance, but they have to distort other life choices to stay eligible for all 10 years. With the Ruby, you never have to wear those manacles in the first place.

(Cards on the table: I lean Yale here, for pretty much the same reasons as you.)

Definitely fair - public defense/other direct services is not grade-conscious.

[AllAboutTheBasis]

As someone who took the money and ran (at a nearby T13), I would encourage you to take the money and run, or at least give it a lot of thought. Both outcomes are awesome and you should be very proud of yourself. However, I wouldn't underestimate the value of being debt free. If you are debt free at graduation, you have complete freedom to take whatever job wherever you want. If you decide you want to do BigLaw half-way into 1L or during your 1L summer (as a friend of mine did), you will be completely indifferent. You won't have to worry about COAP restrictions because there are no loans.

Anecdotally, I had a friend who debt-financed H/S (not Y) and saw the amount of stress it put them under. Because of that, I made a very conscious decision to go to a T13 where I could graduate debt free. I enjoyed 1L more and was/am significantly less stressed than many of my friends who have sizable loans.

Especially as you do not seem particularly prestige-focused (I think you mentioned you would be happy as a state prosecutor), Chicago will open up the same kinds of opportunities as Yale. Yeah, you might not get to clerk on the most competitive circuits but you will likely still clerk. Some clerking opportunities are potentially foreclosed to me that would have been more open had a chosen a higher-ranked T13 (I am probably competitive for a district court but not a CoA) but, ultimately, I am coming out of it with what I want -- a good job and the ability to dictate where I want to go and how I want to live my life.

On a purely superficial note, Chicago is the best big city in the country. It is relatively cheap, the food is great, there is a ton to do, and the summers are awesome. You can really get the full city experience on a student budget, especially if you decide to move to the Loop or South Loop as a 2L/3L.

[asmde]

Posting again with an update! Received a Ruby at Chicago, so now decision is down to Chicago debt free or Yale full debt w/ plan for COAP.

Leaning towards Chicago, because I think it makes sense for all the practical reasons & seems like having a Ruby should help with mentorship/etc, but can’t help thinking I’d be happier at Yale/nervous that Chicago doesn’t really have a public interest culture (which would probably negatively impact my student experience & mean probably less alums in my field/less career advising etc.

Let me know your thoughts! Thanks!

Yale, and it's frankly not close.

If you go to Yale, you will not look back in 10 years and think "I wish I could trade this for some money and a Chicago diploma."

There is a very, very real possibility that you look back three years from now, at Chicago, and think "my grades aren't great so I can't clerk anywhere outside of the midwest, my classmates are obsessing over stupid law firms, this Ruby mentorship thing is a joke, and I'm tired of grinding for exams. Why didn't I just go to Yale fucking Law School??? I wouldn't have any of these problems and I'd actually like, enjoy law school.

(I wouldn't say this about Harvard BTW. This is a Yale thing.)

Agree with this assessment OP. A Ruby is fantastic, and for any school other than Yale I would agree that you should take the full ride. But I really think Yale is in a category of its own when it comes to outcomes, especially unicorn ones. An RTK would be a tougher call, but I still think Yale w/ COAP is the right answer. The Yale degree will open doors for you for the rest of your professional life, and you’ll simultaneously maximize your chances of landing the best PI positions in the country. Not to mention that you think you said you think you’d be happier at Yale vis a vis Chicago, and that’s not a minor consideration.

Congrats on a great cycle!

[Vursz]

Posting again with an update! Received a Ruby at Chicago, so now decision is down to Chicago debt free or Yale full debt w/ plan for COAP.

Leaning towards Chicago, because I think it makes sense for all the practical reasons & seems like having a Ruby should help with mentorship/etc, but can’t help thinking I’d be happier at Yale/nervous that Chicago doesn’t really have a public interest culture (which would probably negatively impact my student experience & mean probably less alums in my field/less career advising etc.

Let me know your thoughts! Thanks!

Yale, and it's frankly not close.

If you go to Yale, you will not look back in 10 years and think "I wish I could trade this for some money and a Chicago diploma."

There is a very, very real possibility that you look back three years from now, at Chicago, and think "my grades aren't great so I can't clerk anywhere outside of the midwest, my classmates are obsessing over stupid law firms, this Ruby mentorship thing is a joke, and I'm tired of grinding for exams. Why didn't I just go to Yale fucking Law School??? I wouldn't have any of these problems and I'd actually like, enjoy law school.

(I wouldn't say this about Harvard BTW. This is a Yale thing.)

YLS grad who turned down a Ruby, and I broadly co-sign this. There is no law school like YLS, in terms of culture and PI opportunities; the lack of real grades or an intelligible curve is a huge part of this. If you want to clerk and put in more than the bare minimum of effort, you can clerk.

By way of reference, a good friend of mine got a Ruby and ended up with ok—not sterling—grades at Chicago. He hasn’t clerked, though I think that was originally one of his goals going in. It’s harder than you may think to clerk a year or so out, once you start to settle and put down roots in a particular area.

Plus, for what it’s worth, the years I spent at YLS were some wonderful years. I spent a lot of time writing academic articles, reading books my professors recommended offhand in class, and having coffees and dinners with amazing visiting speakers. All of this is compounded if you’re pursuing PI—there are constant visitors from the top organizations, almost all of whom are looking to recruit committed YLS grads. Plus, the school has recently poured even more money into its school-funded fellowships, which are pretty solid gigs.

If you have any questions about this (awesome) decision, PM me—happy to talk further.

[Necho2]

UChicago/Ruby alum- Only thing I'd add to the commentary is that I think both of these are very defensible choices given your goals and that your next step should be to visit both, check out the clinical offerings since I think that will be really important and relevant to your experience. The fact that you don't seem to have insanely highfalutin goals maybe pushes a little more towards a Ruby, since you're guaranteeing that debt won't be an issue. Other points:

- To me, Chicago >>>> New Haven. Assuming you're about to pick a place to spend 3 years in your 20s, that's worth thinking about when you're visiting. As has already been noted, Chicago's much bigger than Hyde Park.
- Yale will definitely be more chill. I think the UChicago v. other T6 schools is a little overplayed, and the weird grading curve definitely creates a fat median, but 3 quarters a year of tangible grades will certainly be a more "rigorous" (ugh) experience.
- I think Ruby clerkship rates blow even YLS out of the water. Maybe there are some self-selection issues there, but there's definitely pretty powerful institutional support behind getting Rubies into clerkships if they want to (I can't speak to above poster's observations of their friends perceived interests). I'd happily acknowledge that at the tippy-top of the clerkship pile YLS is unmatched, but if you're just interested in clerking generally as an option, you're not missing much by picking a Ruby, especially since if you shoot the lights out grade-wise 1L you might be in better shape since there's more objective proof and you don't need to worry as much about ingratiating yourself w/ professors.
- I'm not sure some of the other posters are really addressing the hedging issue properly. It sounds like you really don't want to do BigLaw, and that you'd prefer being a PD/prosecutor to that outcome. I don't think bottom of your class at Chicago v. YLS matters at all for that. Neither of those roles will care much about grades, and I think that's an eminently reasonable outcome for either. But relying on COAP will make your life more complicated for the next 10 years after graduation, in a way that being debt-free obviously won't.

Again- these are fantastic outcomes and you'll be fine either way. PM if you have any specific questions.

[agonzalez1855]

YLS alum here. Has YLS sent you your financial aid package yet? I would definitely see what they are offering you before you go with Chicago. A few things to consider:

You mentioned that your parents make a lot of money. How old are you? The expected parent contribution decreases by 50% when you turn 27 and disappears altogether when you turn 29. This might be worth considering, even if you're 26 because you're only going to take the full hit for a year.

I didn't apply to Chicago, so I'm unfamiliar with the Ruby. Does it provide you with a living stipend? If so, have you looked at cost of living to see if it's feasible to survive on that? I know someone who got a full ride at NYU who had to take out loans to survive in NYC and one of my classmates chose YLS over NYU with a full scholarship because she would have had to take out loans to live.

What is the summer stipend situation? If you're looking to do public interest both summers in high cost cities, this will matter a lot. YLS gives you $7500 and a generous additional stipend for plane tickets if you go overseas.

I don't know what the deadline is to decide for the Ruby, but I would highly recommend going to admitted students weekend at both schools, if you can afford it. It gives you a good idea about school culture and what your classmates will be like. I agree with the other posters that, assuming your career goals remain the same, YLS will not open so many more doors for you as to make it definitively the better option (though it will mostly likely be the better law school experience and have the more connected alumni base). If you don't harbor ambitions for SCOTUS, appellate litigation, academia, or the Washington political or policy scene, the advantages of YLS are largely intangible. The best way to figure out whether the intangibles are worth the temporary debt is to visit the schools.

[Necho2]

YLS alum here. Has YLS sent you your financial aid package yet? I would definitely see what they are offering you before you go with Chicago. A few things to consider:

You mentioned that your parents make a lot of money. How old are you? The expected parent contribution decreases by 50% when you turn 27 and disappears altogether when you turn 29. This might be worth considering, even if you're 26 because you're only going to take the full hit for a year.

I didn't apply to Chicago, so I'm unfamiliar with the Ruby. Does it provide you with a living stipend? If so, have you looked at cost of living to see if it's feasible to survive on that? I know someone who got a full ride at NYU who had to take out loans to survive in NYC and one of my classmates chose YLS over NYU with a full scholarship because she would have had to take out loans to live.

What is the summer stipend situation? If you're looking to do public interest both summers in high cost cities, this will matter a lot. YLS gives you $7500 and a generous additional stipend for plane tickets if you go overseas.

I don't know what the deadline is to decide for the Ruby, but I would highly recommend going to admitted students weekend at both schools, if you can afford it. It gives you a good idea about school culture and what your classmates will be like. I agree with the other posters that, assuming your career goals remain the same, YLS will not open so many more doors for you as to make it definitively the better option (though it will mostly likely be the better law school experience and have the more connected alumni base). If you don't harbor ambitions for SCOTUS, appellate litigation, academia, or the Washington political or policy scene, the advantages of YLS are largely intangible. The best way to figure out whether the intangibles are worth the temporary debt is to visit the schools.

To answer these for posterity...

1. Stipend is 20k/yr now.
2. Summer PI stipend is still 5k I think...

[Sackboy]

TL;DR - Chicago, and it's not even close.

I took a nice scholarship at a T13 and ran. In this situation, I'd take the Ruby at Chicago and run. Here's the reasoning I used then that I think is solid now. I wanted a very plain Jane job, just like you. Bonus points, just like you, if I landed one of the particularly snazzy ones. I looked at the offers I had and I went gee I can go to this school for $150k more to get a slightly shinier firm or slightly shinier clerkship, or I can attend that school that is way cheaper and I'll be happy with my shiny-enough firm and shiny-enough clerkship. For you, it sounds like landing a clerkship would be cool and getting a federal gov't gig would be cool, but it's just that: "cool." Chicago, especially Ruby grads, do just fine getting clerkship and prestigious gov't gigs. I would in no way pay $150k-$300k more to fulfill goals you're already going to meet from Chicago. If you wanted to be a SCOTUS justice or a Solicitor General, I'd advise you differently, but those aren't your goals, so why pretend like they are and advise you to make a bad choice?

Aside from goals, I think a couple of things said here have been a little silly. Yeah, Yale doesn't seem to have real grades, but Chicago's grades are pretty much undecipherable to anyone outside of biglaw, because nobody really sees enough Chicago grads to get used to/understand the system. Yeah, Yale has amazing people visit and professors recommend books, but last time I checked that was also a thing at Chicago and most of the T13; unless you're going to lose your ability to read by going to Chicago, I don't think you should worry about no longer having the opportunity to read a book recommended by a professor. Also, last time I checked Chicago had plenty of research going on.

Also, A $20k stipend means you'll truly be debt free in Hyde Park.