Univ. of Virginia vs GW Forum

[QContinuum]

I recently spoke to one of my old legal studies professors who has her own law firm and tries death penalty cases and it was her view that I could still be successful in the field (she even mentioned being a federal prosecutor under that umbrella) at GW. I'm sure my chances would increase at UVA or other T13 schools but my professor also brought up that going to a school and acquiring large amounts of debt could limit my opportunities because then I'd be forced into taking a high paying job over a job I might actually like more.

Did you not see what folks wrote earlier in this thread about PSLF and UVA's (and other T13 schools') LRAP program? T13 grads are absolutely not foreclosed from public service due to student debt.

Law school professors generally aren't in the best position to advise re: what legal hiring currently looks like. First, the legal job market several decades ago was much different than it is today. Several decades ago, law school prestige wasn't as hugely important as it is now. (And, several decades ago, law school tuition costs - both in an absolute sense, as well as relative to non-BigLaw starting salaries - were also much more reasonable.) Second, you'll note that that professor "has her own law firm". Generally, it's not advisable to (be forced to) hang one's own shingle straight out of law school. Law school doesn't prepare you to practice. Third, no one is saying you (or anyone else) couldn't be "successful" out of GWU - many are. The thing is, though, why you'd want to roll the dice and take on the huge risk of not being one of the lucky ones, when you could more or less guarantee success ex ante by attending a T13. Finally and most importantly, you still seem to be dead set on willfully refusing to acknowledge the objective employment data posted earlier in this thread. Your professor's "view" cannot and does not change the objective data. Nor does the quality of GWU's education have any relevance to the objective employment data out of GWU.

I am not trying to attack you, just trying to help prevent you from making what could prove to be a life-altering mistake.

[bciara96]

Finally and most importantly, you still seem to be dead set on willfully refusing to acknowledge the objective employment data posted earlier in this thread.

This is very bold of you. I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything. Believe it or not, I don't post every little thought that enters my brain. I have gotten a lot of really good feedback, which I have stated multiple times, and I've been very appreciative of everything I've been given to consider. As I'm sure you know, there are MANY factors that go into this. Employment statistics are certainly one of them. So is money. So is location. So is the type of job I want. While I'm sure many on here would scoff at the idea, I'd also like to be close to an airport that flies direct to my family. I have a lot to consider and I'm considering it, not ignoring it.

Someone else (possibly you, I don't recall) mentioned the loan forgiveness aspect. From what I'm seeing, that's specifically for federal loans. I'm not sure 100% how all these loans work because I've never had to take any out, but I anticipate the likelihood of using a combination of federal and private loans will increase as the amount of the loan I need increases. This could be wrong, but that means I'd still have considerable loans (which I'm going to have anywhere but less than $100k at GW and well over $200k at UVA). I don't want to work in big law so I don't see the need to accumulate so much debt.

I haven't decided anything yet and I'm constantly weighing my options. I still have time to make a decision (and I don't even have scholarship info from UVA yet or a decision from Georgetown) and I don't plan on rushing into anything. Thank you all for the feedback. I am interested on more info on loans and repayment if anyone has that.

Thanks!

[nixy]

You can get federal loans for the full cost of attendance. I don’t know why you’d take out private loans (unless by private you mean literally from your family). Private loans do have better interest rates, but if the idea is to get them forgiven or paid for by your school that’s moot. You can also refinance once you graduate with private lenders for lower rates if you end up going the biglaw route and will be paying it all off.

[bciara96]

You can get federal loans for the full cost of attendance. I don’t know why you’d take out private loans (unless by private you mean literally from your family). Private loans do have better interest rates, but if the idea is to get them forgiven or paid for by your school that’s moot. You can also refinance once you graduate with private lenders for lower rates if you end up going the biglaw route and will be paying it all off.

I just did a loan estimater thing and it didn't list the full cost of attendance (obviously this is an estimator and not perfect). I haven't filled out FASFA in a couple of years, but will it know that I won't be working while in law school? I'll have previous year's income because I've been working full time for the past 2.5 years and I'm worried it's gonna factor that in and think I can pay for law school.

[QContinuum]

This is very bold of you. I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything. Believe it or not, I don't post every little thought that enters my brain. I have gotten a lot of really good feedback, which I have stated multiple times, and I've been very appreciative of everything I've been given to consider. As I'm sure you know, there are MANY factors that go into this. Employment statistics are certainly one of them. So is money. So is location. So is the type of job I want. While I'm sure many on here would scoff at the idea, I'd also like to be close to an airport that flies direct to my family. I have a lot to consider and I'm considering it, not ignoring it.

It's great that you're keeping an open mind and assessing the full picture. Your earlier posts had suggested the opposite. Notably, you responded to GWU's actual employment statistics by complaining that folks were "ragging on" GWU, and then cited your old law professor/solo practitioner's personal opinion about GWU's strengths. That implied that you were not fully acknowledging or considering the data. It's great that that's not the case.

Re: airport, though, I'd venture to suggest that Charlottesville isn't really all that inaccessible. How frequently do you intend on flying out to see your family during law school? The vast majority of UVA students - law students, undergrads, grad students - travel to see their (non-Charlottesville-based) family regularly.

I don't want to work in big law so I don't see the need to accumulate so much debt.

But you want to be a federal prosecutor or defender. These positions aren't less competitive or selective than BigLaw - in fact, they're often harder to get, and often require a stint in BigLaw as a de facto prerequisite. (One of the most highly-sought 'exits' for BigLaw litigators is to AUSA positions.)

If you'd said you were all-in on working for the state or local government, I'd have no hesitation to cheerlead for choosing GWU. But that's not the case.

I just did a loan estimater thing and it didn't list the full cost of attendance (obviously this is an estimator and not perfect). I haven't filled out FASFA in a couple of years, but will it know that I won't be working while in law school? I'll have previous year's income because I've been working full time for the past 2.5 years and I'm worried it's gonna factor that in and think I can pay for law school.

You can/should confirm with the financial aid office at the law schools you're considering, but as far as I know, nixy is absolutely right that you will be able to borrow up to the full COA from the feds, regardless of your savings or work history.

[nixy]

Yeah, federal grad loans aren’t need based. You could be Bill Gates and you’d still be able to take out loans for the full cost of attendance if you felt like it.

The exception is that you have to qualify in the sense that you can’t have an abysmal credit score, but I think that’s more that about whether you can get loans at all, rather than affecting the total amount.

(Also, HYS do only need-based aid where they do take your income/assets into account, but that’s a limit only on grants from the school. You can still get federal loans to cover the difference between what those schools give you and the COA. In theory some other schools do need-based as well, but it usually seems to get mixed in with merit aid and it’s not really the same.)

This is all for grad loans, I think UG is different.

[notinbiglaw]

As a GULC grad, I'd have bailed for UVA (though I turned down a T6 for GULC for personal reasons) in a heartbeat.

I agree with QContinuum on GULC not quite belonging in the T14 group though I think GULC is stronger than numbers suggest. We take 100+ transfers (ballooning the class size by ~20%) per year and the transfers we're taking in are mostly rejects from higher-ranked schools. I just can't imagine that didn't hurt our employment numbers.

[The Lsat Airbender]

I agree with QContinuum on GULC not quite belonging in the T14 group though I think GULC is stronger than numbers suggest. We take 100+ transfers (ballooning the class size by ~20%) per year and the transfers we're taking in are mostly rejects from higher-ranked schools. I just can't imagine that didn't hurt our employment numbers.

Yeah, GULC is a peer of the T13 in terms of faculty, reputation among lawyers, and what sorts of opportunities open up for its top students, but they have way too many students because Georgetown U uses the law school center as a cash cow. The relatively-worse outcomes for the hundreds of people in the bottom third sour the overall deal from a rational 0L perspective.

(In this regard GULC's relationship to the T13 is a lot like GW's relationship to the T20, or Harvard's relationship to Y/S - similar fundamental strengths, but many more mouths to feed.)

[JOThompson]

Any scholarship stipulations/requirements on the GWU scholarship? Sorry if I missed that in the thread.

If you want public interest criminal defense (non-federal), I'd try to keep your debt as low as possible. I still think UVA (even with extra debt) would give you much more flexibility overall, compared to a full ride at GWU. Some people are pretty set on a particular type of law but later change their minds in law school or a couple years out of it. You can always pay off the extra debt that comes with a T14 school, but it's much more difficult to generate the prestige of a T14 education when you're in the T20 or T30. I say that as someone who went to Iowa on a full ride, I've seen how my degree has limited me when looking for federal jobs, although I'd argue that GWU places much better regionally and nationally.

I think if you will want any type of white collar defense job, go to UVA (or better if you retake). I deal with white collar defense attorneys at the state level fairly often (I'm in a financial crimes unit), and the vast majority are from T14 schools.

If you want to be a local prosecutor, I don't think the rank or pedigree of your degree matters a lot, as long as the school is well known in your target market. I would almost certainly take UW with $$$ in that scenario. But if you want to be a federal prosecutor, I'd absolutely take UVA over GWU in a hearbeat. USAOs in major markets seem to be very prestige-driven. The only AUSAs I know outside of the T14 are ones in relatively tiny rural or branch offices -- but they were either rockstars in law school / practice, or had deep connections to their respective USAOs.