Berkeley ($$$$) vs. Harvard Forum

[Rigo]

I'll push back on some of the feedback ITT.. If you want to work for Latham or Skadden in LA, going to Harvard might be worth it. Harvard allows you to place at the top of BigLaw than T13s would. But if you are shooting for generic BigLaw, Berkley is definitely the way to go

Why would Latham or Skadden in LA be a goal for anyone?

Isn't Skadden LA where that one lady was literally worked to death?

[rpupkin]

I'll push back on some of the feedback ITT.. If you want to work for Latham or Skadden in LA, going to Harvard might be worth it. Harvard allows you to place at the top of BigLaw than T13s would. But if you are shooting for generic BigLaw, Berkley is definitely the way to go

Why would Latham or Skadden in LA be a goal for anyone?

Isn't Skadden LA where that one lady was literally worked to death?

Although RParadela's Skadden/Latham focus was perhaps misplaced, he does have a point in there somewhere: if you have mediocre/bad grades and want SoCal big law, HLS is going to give you a slight edge over Berkeley. The question is whether that edge is worth an extra $100K+ of debt. I think it probably isn't.

[OneHandedEconomist]

There's no justification for Harvard here other than prestige whoring.

You want CA. This is the 2nd best school in CA for free. Don't be an idiot.

[existentialcrisis]

There's no justification for Harvard here other than prestige whoring.

You want CA. This is the 2nd best school in CA for free. Don't be an idiot.

I don't think this is true, but I would take Boalt here regardless.

Berk's bl+fc is tradtionally underwhelming. I don't think that percentage is the be all end all, and I'm sure that there's a large degree of self selection there. But it seems like HLS offers a greater degree of downside risk, which for me is worth some money, although probably not enough to justify the large difference in COA.

[zot1]

Harvard for the lay prestige.

[WinterComing]

Just so we're clear for the future: It's $$$ for a full ride and $$$$ for a full ride plus stipend, right?

[RParadela]

I'll push back on some of the feedback ITT.. If you want to work for Latham or Skadden in LA, going to Harvard might be worth it. Harvard allows you to place at the top of BigLaw than T13s would. But if you are shooting for generic BigLaw, Berkley is definitely the way to go

Why would Latham or Skadden in LA be a goal for anyone?

And lol at them being considered anything other than "generic Biglaw". Don't listen to 0Ls, OP. I'm at not-harvard and plenty of my friends have open doors to Latham and Skadden, even in CA.

Not sure how you'd argue that Harvard at median wouldn't land you significantly better offers at V10s or V20s or whatever line you want to draw than median at Berkley. Sure, you can land offers at Skadden from Duke or Berkley, but it's certainly easier from Harvard

[rpupkin]

Not sure how you'd argue that Harvard at median wouldn't land you significantly better offers at V10s or V20s or whatever line you want to draw than median at Berkley. Sure, you can land offers at Skadden from Duke or Berkley, but it's certainly easier from Harvard

I do agree with you that Harvard gives you a leg up for certain firms, but Skadden LA is an odd example. That office is not particularly grade-conscious and not particularly competitive. In any event, thinking in terms of Vault ranking is not a productive way to approach figuring out where to work in big law, especially if you're in California (and especially especially if you're interested in litigation).

[lymenheimer]

I'll push back on some of the feedback ITT.. If you want to work for Latham or Skadden in LA, going to Harvard might be worth it. Harvard allows you to place at the top of BigLaw than T13s would. But if you are shooting for generic BigLaw, Berkley is definitely the way to go

Why would Latham or Skadden in LA be a goal for anyone?

And lol at them being considered anything other than "generic Biglaw". Don't listen to 0Ls, OP. I'm at not-harvard and plenty of my friends have open doors to Latham and Skadden, even in CA.

Not sure how you'd argue that Harvard at median wouldn't land you significantly better offers at V10s or V20s or whatever line you want to draw than median at Berkley. Sure, you can land offers at Skadden from Duke or Berkley, but it's certainly easier from Harvard

I wouldn't...but that's not what you said. You said "harvard allows you to place at the top of biglaw than T13s". If you meant "easier than T13s", then sure. But that's not what you said.

[RParadela]

I'll push back on some of the feedback ITT.. If you want to work for Latham or Skadden in LA, going to Harvard might be worth it. Harvard allows you to place at the top of BigLaw than T13s would. But if you are shooting for generic BigLaw, Berkley is definitely the way to go

Why would Latham or Skadden in LA be a goal for anyone?

And lol at them being considered anything other than "generic Biglaw". Don't listen to 0Ls, OP. I'm at not-harvard and plenty of my friends have open doors to Latham and Skadden, even in CA.

Not sure how you'd argue that Harvard at median wouldn't land you significantly better offers at V10s or V20s or whatever line you want to draw than median at Berkley. Sure, you can land offers at Skadden from Duke or Berkley, but it's certainly easier from Harvard

I wouldn't...but that's not what you said. You said "harvard allows you to place at the top of biglaw than T13s". If you meant "easier than T13s", then sure. But that's not what you said.

Oops, that's what I meant. I just typed it incorrectly

[eck456]

I'll bite...I moved from the Bay to Cambridge this year and Cambridge is kind of the worst coming from California. I was at an HLS event tonight where the professor opened by calling Boston "cold and mean" and then we spent the first 10 minutes in small groups talking about how much we all hate Boston. literally. every. person. at. the. table. That wasn't the prompt, that was just what happened. If the only thing calling you is cambridge, I would say take the money and run at berkeley.

That said, I'm here and thinking about staying here for next year. I miss the Bay a lot but depending on what your goals are there are real reasons to pick harvard over berkeley. I'm looking for international unicorn jobs, so for me it might make sense to be here. i also think if you plan on applying to run projects or for public interest summer grants or to do cool stuff during the year, harvard's endless and continuous pot of money is worth thinking about, whereas cal just has less to fund student groups, summer experiences, etc. also the level of access at harvard is crazy - if you're thinking you want to do politics, federal, crazy internships funded by bigname people I would say it's probably easier from harvard. on the other hand, if you want to do somewhat standard biglaw in cali, I just can't see it being worth $100,000. also cambridge is objectively mediocre at best after the first 2 months. I would say that's a controversial opinion if it was one, but...it's not.

tl,dr: don't come to harvard for cambridge, come because it will make a real difference in your outcomes.

[jbagelboy]

Skadden and Latham are not the firms you should be worried about. If you have your heart set on Munfer or Keker or Hueston Hennigan, Harvard will give you a worthy advantage (although you'll still have to do well there).

My vote is H here if you receive that much need-based. But it could go either way.

[UVA2B]

Skadden and Latham are not the firms you should be worried about. If you have your heart set on Munfer or Keker or Hueston Hennigan, Harvard will give you a worthy advantage (although you'll still have to do well there).

My vote is H here if you receive that much need-based. But it could go either way.

Echoing ad infinitum. Vault ranking+desirable location does not equal selectivity. The truly selective jobs are in the unassuming firms that exclusively hire from a grade/law school prestige pedigree. Munger isn't going to show up on any rankings based on PPP, but they are hiring the best of HYS grads regularly.

It's an unfortunately rough overlap between Vault and actual selectivity, because too often they're conflated.

ETA: Strikethrough doesn't work on equal signs, apparently

[lawlorbust]

I'll bite...

also cambridge is objectively mediocre at best after the first 2 months. I would say that's a controversial opinion if it was one, but...it's not.

tl,dr: don't come to harvard for cambridge, come because it will make a real difference in your outcomes.

Eh. It is though. Cambridge is quite underrated.

[armc808]

Harvard. The full ride at Berkeley is a tempting choice, but with a $40k grant from HLS, it doesn't get much better than that in terms of aid (as far as I'm aware, correct me if I'm wrong), and you will more than have the capacity to pay down your debt comfortably after graduation. The HLS network is second to none, and SoCal biglaw would be well within your reach, especially given that you already have CA roots. Enjoy the 3 years in Cambridge and try not to hate the bitter winters that much, you'll be back to sunshine in no time.

[rpupkin]

Harvard. The full ride at Berkeley is a tempting choice, but with a $40k grant from HLS, it doesn't get much better than that in terms of aid (as far as I'm aware, correct me if I'm wrong),

I'm kind of surprised that so many are focused on the fact that OP might get HLS's most generous need-based aid package. I don't see why that matters. At the end of the day, OP is going to have an additional $100K of debt if he or she attends HLS instead of Berkeley, for a total debt of $175K. That's a good chunk of debt.

I'm not saying HLS is the wrong choice here. I'd be tempted to make that choice if I were OP. But as someone who has worked as a lawyer for several years, I'll say this: big law is full of HYS grads who say "I wish I had taken a full ride at CLS/NYU/Chicago/Penn/Berkeley/UVA/Duke/Northwestern instead of going to Harvard/Yale/Stanford." Ironically, their lives are worse for having opted for prestige. Many of those who passed up HYS for a lower-ranked school can buy nicer things (including homes) because they have so much less debt.

Now, you're not going to pay sticker at HLS, so the debt-contrast isn't as stark. But $100K is a lot of extra debt for someone who just wants big law in SoCal, and whose other option is a school that places very well in California.

[dabigchina]

I'm facing a choice between either a full tuition scholarship at Berkeley or need-based aid at Harvard.

I don't have my need-based award at H yet but I'm guesstimating it should be max/near max (~40K grant + 50K loan). At Berkeley, I would only need to cover living expenses which are estimated (by them) to be ~25K/year.

To add some context, I'm planning on doing BigLaw out of school, ideally in Southern California. I visited both campuses and liked both, but fell somewhat in love with Cambridge and the H campus, but I know financially, Berkeley probably makes more sense. I am a CA native and have never lived on the East Coast, though I don't think I'll hate the weather too much as I like the cold + snow.

Any thoughts, advice?

For posterity, I am a URM.

Have you considered negotiating with Berkeley (informally) preferential access to the 5 spots they have for 3Ls to study a full year at Harvard? It won't get you the Harvard degree, but a unique story to market.

my understanding is it's much easier for B students to visit H than it is the other way around. Nobody is going to deal with a boston winter without getting a Harvard degree.

[lymenheimer]

Harvard. The full ride at Berkeley is a tempting choice, but with a $40k grant from HLS, it doesn't get much better than that in terms of aid (as far as I'm aware, correct me if I'm wrong),

I'm kind of surprised that so many are focused on the fact that OP might get HLS's most generous need-based aid package. I don't see why that matters. At the end of the day, OP is going to have an additional $100K of debt if he or she attends HLS instead of Berkeley, for a total debt of $175K. That's a good chunk of debt.

I'm not saying HLS is the wrong choice here. I'd be tempted to make that choice if I were OP. But as someone who has worked as a lawyer for several years, I'll say this: big law is full of HYS grads who say "I wish I had taken a full ride at CLS/NYU/Chicago/Penn/Berkeley/UVA/Duke/Northwestern instead of going to Harvard/Yale/Stanford." Ironically, their lives are worse for having opted for prestige. Many of those who passed up HYS for a lower-ranked school can buy nicer things (including homes) because they have so much less debt.

Now, you're not going to pay sticker at HLS, so the debt-contrast isn't as stark. But $100K is a lot of extra debt for someone who just wants big law in SoCal, and whose other option is a school that places very well in California.

There are a lot of 0Ls itt...likely projecting.

[Npret]

Harvard. The full ride at Berkeley is a tempting choice, but with a $40k grant from HLS, it doesn't get much better than that in terms of aid (as far as I'm aware, correct me if I'm wrong),

I'm kind of surprised that so many are focused on the fact that OP might get HLS's most generous need-based aid package. I don't see why that matters. At the end of the day, OP is going to have an additional $100K of debt if he or she attends HLS instead of Berkeley, for a total debt of $175K. That's a good chunk of debt.

I'm not saying HLS is the wrong choice here. I'd be tempted to make that choice if I were OP. But as someone who has worked as a lawyer for several years, I'll say this: big law is full of HYS grads who say "I wish I had taken a full ride at CLS/NYU/Chicago/Penn/Berkeley/UVA/Duke/Northwestern instead of going to Harvard/Yale/Stanford." Ironically, their lives are worse for having opted for prestige. Many of those who passed up HYS for a lower-ranked school can buy nicer things (including homes) because they have so much less debt.

Now, you're not going to pay sticker at HLS, so the debt-contrast isn't as stark. But $100K is a lot of extra debt for someone who just wants big law in SoCal, and whose other option is a school that places very well in California.

There are a lot of 0Ls itt...likely projecting.

It's so ridiculous for the OP to go to Harvard. Go to Berkeley and start your California law life by networking, going to events and finding mentors/ advisors.

I know someone suggested an extra hundred thousand of debt at Harvard just to get Skadden. That might be close to the worst advice given this cycle. I know some 0Ls don't seem to grasp this possibly because they think they will be biglaw rich, but $100,000 is a large amount of money. Think what you can do with that money if you aren't repaying debt. Or think what you might do with your career if you don't have loan payments.

[LHS17]

I'm facing a choice between either a full tuition scholarship at Berkeley or need-based aid at Harvard.

I don't have my need-based award at H yet but I'm guesstimating it should be max/near max (~40K grant + 50K loan). At Berkeley, I would only need to cover living expenses which are estimated (by them) to be ~25K/year.

To add some context, I'm planning on doing BigLaw out of school, ideally in Southern California. I visited both campuses and liked both, but fell somewhat in love with Cambridge and the H campus, but I know financially, Berkeley probably makes more sense. I am a CA native and have never lived on the East Coast, though I don't think I'll hate the weather too much as I like the cold + snow.

Any thoughts, advice?

For posterity, I am a URM.

Have you considered negotiating with Berkeley (informally) preferential access to the 5 spots they have for 3Ls to study a full year at Harvard? It won't get you the Harvard degree, but a unique story to market.

my understanding is it's much easier for B students to visit H than it is the other way around. Nobody is going to deal with a boston winter without getting a Harvard degree.

Surprises me, because you can still put B/H on the resume. I would have assumed there is a contingent of interested people from B who may not have gotten into H through the normal path.

[Dcc617]

1) You're probably going to end up going to Harvard because you're a 0L, and they tend to get star struck by Harvard and don't have a real sense of debt.

2) You'll probably start questioning that decision at some point in your 1L year once the extra 100K+ in debt starts feeling real.

3) Considering you want a normal job in California, you'll probably end up at the same place regardless of where you go.

4) It snowed on Saturday in Cambridge. The weather here is bleak and sad most of the year. It's tough.

[quiver]

Harvard. The full ride at Berkeley is a tempting choice, but with a $40k grant from HLS, it doesn't get much better than that in terms of aid (as far as I'm aware, correct me if I'm wrong),

I'm kind of surprised that so many are focused on the fact that OP might get HLS's most generous need-based aid package. I don't see why that matters. At the end of the day, OP is going to have an additional $100K of debt if he or she attends HLS instead of Berkeley, for a total debt of $175K. That's a good chunk of debt.

I'm not saying HLS is the wrong choice here. I'd be tempted to make that choice if I were OP. But as someone who has worked as a lawyer for several years, I'll say this: big law is full of HYS grads who say "I wish I had taken a full ride at CLS/NYU/Chicago/Penn/Berkeley/UVA/Duke/Northwestern instead of going to Harvard/Yale/Stanford." Ironically, their lives are worse for having opted for prestige. Many of those who passed up HYS for a lower-ranked school can buy nicer things (including homes) because they have so much less debt.

Now, you're not going to pay sticker at HLS, so the debt-contrast isn't as stark. But $100K is a lot of extra debt for someone who just wants big law in SoCal, and whose other option is a school that places very well in California.

There are a lot of 0Ls itt...likely projecting.

It's so ridiculous for the OP to go to Harvard. Go to Berkeley and start your California law life by networking, going to events and finding mentors/ advisors.

I know someone suggested an extra hundred thousand of debt at Harvard just to get Skadden. That might be close to the worst advice given this cycle. I know some 0Ls don't seem to grasp this possibly because they think they will be biglaw rich, but $100,000 is a large amount of money. Think what you can do with that money if you aren't repaying debt. Or think what you might do with your career if you don't have loan payments.

Yeah, agree with all of this. OP, if you're just gunning for biglaw, please take the money; your future self will thank you. This is advice coming from practicing lawyers who know the real-world impact of living with debt.

[Veil of Ignorance]

Harvard. The full ride at Berkeley is a tempting choice, but with a $40k grant from HLS, it doesn't get much better than that in terms of aid (as far as I'm aware, correct me if I'm wrong),

I'm kind of surprised that so many are focused on the fact that OP might get HLS's most generous need-based aid package. I don't see why that matters. At the end of the day, OP is going to have an additional $100K of debt if he or she attends HLS instead of Berkeley, for a total debt of $175K. That's a good chunk of debt.

I'm not saying HLS is the wrong choice here. I'd be tempted to make that choice if I were OP. But as someone who has worked as a lawyer for several years, I'll say this: big law is full of HYS grads who say "I wish I had taken a full ride at CLS/NYU/Chicago/Penn/Berkeley/UVA/Duke/Northwestern instead of going to Harvard/Yale/Stanford." Ironically, their lives are worse for having opted for prestige. Many of those who passed up HYS for a lower-ranked school can buy nicer things (including homes) because they have so much less debt.

Now, you're not going to pay sticker at HLS, so the debt-contrast isn't as stark. But $100K is a lot of extra debt for someone who just wants big law in SoCal, and whose other option is a school that places very well in California.

I'm guessing you just forgot to include Michigan?

[armc808]

Harvard. The full ride at Berkeley is a tempting choice, but with a $40k grant from HLS, it doesn't get much better than that in terms of aid (as far as I'm aware, correct me if I'm wrong),

I'm kind of surprised that so many are focused on the fact that OP might get HLS's most generous need-based aid package. I don't see why that matters. At the end of the day, OP is going to have an additional $100K of debt if he or she attends HLS instead of Berkeley, for a total debt of $175K. That's a good chunk of debt.

I'm not saying HLS is the wrong choice here. I'd be tempted to make that choice if I were OP. But as someone who has worked as a lawyer for several years, I'll say this: big law is full of HYS grads who say "I wish I had taken a full ride at CLS/NYU/Chicago/Penn/Berkeley/UVA/Duke/Northwestern instead of going to Harvard/Yale/Stanford." Ironically, their lives are worse for having opted for prestige. Many of those who passed up HYS for a lower-ranked school can buy nicer things (including homes) because they have so much less debt.

Now, you're not going to pay sticker at HLS, so the debt-contrast isn't as stark. But $100K is a lot of extra debt for someone who just wants big law in SoCal, and whose other option is a school that places very well in California.

Sure biglaw is full of HYS grads who said they wish they had taken the money, we've all heard the anecdotal horror stories, but the legal profession itself is filled with people who would kill for the quantifiable and unquantifiable opportunities that a HYS degree provides. $100K is not an insignificant amount of debt, but over a lifetime it really is a small fraction one's earnings. OP says they want to go to SoCal biglaw after graduation, but what if during their 1L they decide to switch course to something else? OP may not end up doing that, but surely it is not inconceivable for future plans to change during law school. H pretty much keeps as many doors open as possible in the legal profession, and as a 0L with much to be learned, I think having that ace in your pocket can give you some piece of mind. It's a subjective judgment as to whether or not it's worth the extra $100K investment, but in taking the long view, I absolutely think it's worth it.

[eck456]

I'll bite...

also cambridge is objectively mediocre at best after the first 2 months. I would say that's a controversial opinion if it was one, but...it's not.

tl,dr: don't come to harvard for cambridge, come because it will make a real difference in your outcomes.

Eh. It is though. Cambridge is quite underrated.

I live here...if that's true can you send me your favorite places? Not joking at all, I would love to be excited about spending the next 3 yrs here