Duke (Mordecai) v. Harvard Forum

[jbagelboy]

Duke. You probably won't be clerking unless you go to Yale and to bet on H's placement wouldn't be wise imo. If you strike out, you will be close to 300k in debt. If you strike out at Duke, you will still get biglaw and can pay that 75k off in a year if you are really worried about debt.

But, as Gobucks said, don't listen to TLS. Make your own choice based on which you like. I think TLS's opinion is overstated and many of the people here don't give great advice.

I vote Duke, barring a bunch of need based aid. But, the part about betting on clerkship placement seems like nonsense. I'll bet the majority of the HLS class could get an article Iii clerkship if they wanted one. It probably wouldn't be D.C. Circuit or SDNY or something like that, but OP didn't say he wanted a super competitive clerkship.

I do agee with the sentiment in this thread that 0Ls seem too hung up on clerkships though.

The majority of the HLS class could not get a federal article III clerkship

And clerkships don't factor that heavily into this choice

[cavalier1138]

Duke. You probably won't be clerking unless you go to Yale and to bet on H's placement wouldn't be wise imo. If you strike out, you will be close to 300k in debt. If you strike out at Duke, you will still get biglaw and can pay that 75k off in a year if you are really worried about debt.

But, as Gobucks said, don't listen to TLS. Make your own choice based on which you like. I think TLS's opinion is overstated and many of the people here don't give great advice.

I vote Duke, barring a bunch of need based aid. But, the part about betting on clerkship placement seems like nonsense. I'll bet the majority of the HLS class could get an article Iii clerkship if they wanted one. It probably wouldn't be D.C. Circuit or SDNY or something like that, but OP didn't say he wanted a super competitive clerkship.

I do agee with the sentiment in this thread that 0Ls seem too hung up on clerkships though.

The majority of the HLS class could not get a federal article III clerkship

And clerkships don't factor that heavily into this choice

Yeah, I don't know where people are getting the idea that federal clerkships are being handed out to every median student at Harvard. Judges still have cutoffs, because they can afford to be very picky.

[grixxlybear99]

I say Harvard.

You want to work Pi/Gov. H offers LRAP and you can enroll in PAYE and then have all of your loans forgiven with PSLF after 10 years.

If you want a clerkship, AUSA, and political office, H is the way to go. If you want private practice, Duke because you'd have to flip the bill.

[cavalier1138]

I say Harvard.

You want to work Pi/Gov. H offers LRAP and you can enroll in PAYE and then have all of your loans forgiven with PSLF after 10 years.

If you want a clerkship, AUSA, and political office, H is the way to go. If you want private practice, Duke because you'd have to flip the bill.

Duke also has an LRAP program, and you're eligible for PSLF no matter where you go to school. I think you might be trying to highlight that Harvard's LRAP isn't dependent on a PSLF payment schedule, and that would be a plus for anyone going to the dedicated PI route.

And it should be noted that no law school is the way to go for political office. If you want to get elected, then go run for office instead of becoming a lawyer.

[Nacho_Verde]

And it should be noted that no law school is the way to go for political office. If you want to get elected, then go run for office instead of becoming a lawyer.

But Obama?

[Stephylynette]

I say Harvard.

You want to work Pi/Gov. H offers LRAP and you can enroll in PAYE and then have all of your loans forgiven with PSLF after 10 years.

If you want a clerkship, AUSA, and political office, H is the way to go. If you want private practice, Duke because you'd have to flip the bill.

Duke also has an LRAP program, and you're eligible for PSLF no matter where you go to school. I think you might be trying to highlight that Harvard's LRAP isn't dependent on a PSLF payment schedule, and that would be a plus for anyone going to the dedicated PI route.

And it should be noted that no law school is the way to go for political office. If you want to get elected, then go run for office instead of becoming a lawyer.

Also, I just went to Duke's ASW and FWIW, they explcitiyly said that should PSLF be scrapped, they'd go back to a LRAP that is independent of the federal government. That's what they said but really you can take that with a grain of salt.

[shadowfax]

Heartfelt condolences on the loss of your parents.

Harvard. Particularly if you feel that through you efforts there you can accomplish your objectives. That sounds pretty simplistic even as I type it. Some people seem stuck on the concept that it is the odds of getting what you want based on class size comparisons. Success is not that random. You can make an informed opinion, by definition not with certainty, as to who is going to do what. Entrance stats, prior accomplishments, work experience all contribute to your chances of success (however you define that). Take law review for example. A lot of TLS analysis would have you look at the number of people on law review and divide by the class size. The reality is that a great number of people don't even try for law review. Write-on is a tremendous time commitment, as is law review itself should you succeed, and many people just know that it is not what they want. Now that I think of it everyone should go to the best small school they can get in because the odds of being editor of law review are really good. It must be a lay up to be the editor of Stanford's Law review, 1 in 170 compared to Harvard 1 in 565. It is a lot more than the odds that come into play. Bet on yourself.

If there are 85 clerkship slots at Harvard it is not that there are 565 people competing for them. Now this is true everywhere but the sheer number of slots works in Harvard's favor. Also class size can work for you. The fact that each year, year after year, Harvard places large numbers into great situations, creates a network that is in a league of its own.

Look at your own situation. If you feel that you could thrive in Cambridge then go. Yes it is worth is extra cost.

Good news...you can not go wrong. Duke with a Mordecai is an incredible opportunity and you will thrive there if that is your choice. Best of luck.

[quiver]

Heartfelt condolences on the loss of your parents.

Harvard. Particularly if you feel that through you efforts there you can accomplish your objectives. That sounds pretty simplistic even as I type it. Some people seem stuck on the concept that it is the odds of getting what you want based on class size comparisons. Success is not that random. You can make an informed opinion, by definition not with certainty, as to who is going to do what. Entrance stats, prior accomplishments, work experience all contribute to your chances of success (however you define that). Take law review for example. A lot of TLS analysis would have you look at the number of people on law review and divide by the class size. The reality is that a great number of people don't even try for law review. Write-on is a tremendous time commitment, as is law review itself should you succeed, and many people just know that it is not what they want. Now that I think of it everyone should go to the best small school they can get in because the odds of being editor of law review are really good. It must be a lay up to be the editor of Stanford's Law review, 1 in 170 compared to Harvard 1 in 565. It is a lot more than the odds that come into play. Bet on yourself.

If there are 85 clerkship slots at Harvard it is not that there are 565 people competing for them. Now this is true everywhere but the sheer number of slots works in Harvard's favor. Also class size can work for you. The fact that each year, year after year, Harvard places large numbers into great situations, creates a network that is in a league of its own.

Look at your own situation. If you feel that you could thrive in Cambridge then go. Yes it is worth is extra cost.

Good news...you can not go wrong. Duke with a Mordecai is an incredible opportunity and you will thrive there if that is your choice. Best of luck.

Pretty much disagree with all of this. Everyone going into HLS will have similar stats and "prior accomplishments". Even if some people self-select out of law review and clerkships, there is no way of knowing, as a 0L, where you'll fall within the people competing for those things. Judges aren't doling out clerkships (let alone "prestigious" ones) to anyone at HLS that wants one. I'll reiterate that I don't think the focus should be on federal clerkships.

My vote remains with Duke.

[cavalier1138]

And it should be noted that no law school is the way to go for political office. If you want to get elected, then go run for office instead of becoming a lawyer.

But Obama?

But when did he graduate? But the advent of MPP programs? But law school is for people who want to be lawyers?

[OneHandedEconomist]

Congrats on amazing options, OP.

I vote Duke. I just made a similar decision, and I think we naturally overrate the benefits of prestige and underrate the value of money when making these decisions. Will Harvard make it easier for you to accomplish your goals at the margins? Sure. But the employment outcomes just aren't that different. The price difference, however, will end up being 300k+ when all is said and done. Think about having that money, how much freedom and autonomy that gives you. Think about the QOL difference for the first 10 years of your career. Think about having the ability to say fuck it and join the circus. You have won the lottery-- don't give away the ticket.

[eileenbae]

I'd just like to take a sec and say thank you again to everyone who has posted and offered their thoughts. I will be visiting Harvard & Duke, then making a decision after the fact.

As I enter law school in my late 20's, I think now more than ever I'm really considering the effects of debt on me, my partner, and our future children (hopefully). At the same time, I'd like to not wake up a decade from now and regret not taking a gamble on what seems like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to compete with some of the very "best".

Not sure if current law students/alum peruse these threads but I'd love to chat with people who have made similar decisions. Do you have any regrets? Please PM or comment.

[quiver]

I'd just like to take a sec and say thank you again to everyone who has posted and offered their thoughts. I will be visiting Harvard & Duke, then making a decision after the fact.

As I enter law school in my late 20's, I think now more than ever I'm really considering the effects of debt on me, my partner, and our future children (hopefully). At the same time, I'd like to not wake up a decade from now and regret not taking a gamble on what seems like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to compete with some of the very "best".

Not sure if current law students/alum peruse these threads but I'd love to chat with people who have made similar decisions. Do you have any regrets? Please PM or comment.

Many of those who already weighed in, including myself, are alumni. Some faced your situation, and others didn't (I certainly didn't), but a lot of us know what it's like to live with a ton of debt, day in and day out. It's not pleasant, even if you achieve everything you set out to do.

Feel free to PM if you want.

[WheninLaw]

I think this will be one of those recurring threads where the vast majority of alumni say Duke, while 0L's and law students say Harvard.

Duke, without question.

[lymenheimer]

Sorry us poor Duke students aren't good enough for you op. You should go to Harvard, because we don't like assholes down here.

[lawlorbust]

Sorry us poor Duke students aren't good enough for you op. You should go to Harvard, because we don't like assholes down here.

This seems overly defensive.

Duke is a good school. Harvard is obviously better. Better enough? Who knows. (Probably not, IMO.) But being able to avoid the butthurt "we're just as good as everyone" chip-on-the-shoulder / oversensitivity is certainly one reason to pick the better-ranked school.

[shadowfax]

Sorry us poor Duke students aren't good enough for you op. You should go to Harvard, because we don't like assholes down here.

The history of Duke basketball renders this statement false.

[OneHandedEconomist]

OP, feel free to PM me. I made more or less the exact same decision, and have never regretted it for a moment. There are so few situations where going to Harvard over Duke would drastically change your career outcome, but there are 100% of situations where not having 300k of debt would increase your happiness/freedom/QOL.

[eileenbae]

Sorry us poor Duke students aren't good enough for you op. You should go to Harvard, because we don't like assholes down here.

The history of Duke basketball renders this statement false.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Heartfelt condolences on the loss of your parents.

Harvard. Particularly if you feel that through you efforts there you can accomplish your objectives. That sounds pretty simplistic even as I type it. Some people seem stuck on the concept that it is the odds of getting what you want based on class size comparisons. Success is not that random. You can make an informed opinion, by definition not with certainty, as to who is going to do what. Entrance stats, prior accomplishments, work experience all contribute to your chances of success (however you define that). Take law review for example. A lot of TLS analysis would have you look at the number of people on law review and divide by the class size. The reality is that a great number of people don't even try for law review. Write-on is a tremendous time commitment, as is law review itself should you succeed, and many people just know that it is not what they want. Now that I think of it everyone should go to the best small school they can get in because the odds of being editor of law review are really good. It must be a lay up to be the editor of Stanford's Law review, 1 in 170 compared to Harvard 1 in 565. It is a lot more than the odds that come into play. Bet on yourself.

If there are 85 clerkship slots at Harvard it is not that there are 565 people competing for them. Now this is true everywhere but the sheer number of slots works in Harvard's favor. Also class size can work for you. The fact that each year, year after year, Harvard places large numbers into great situations, creates a network that is in a league of its own.

Look at your own situation. If you feel that you could thrive in Cambridge then go. Yes it is worth is extra cost.

Good news...you can not go wrong. Duke with a Mordecai is an incredible opportunity and you will thrive there if that is your choice. Best of luck.

Pretty much disagree with all of this. Everyone going into HLS will have similar stats and "prior accomplishments". Even if some people self-select out of law review and clerkships, there is no way of knowing, as a 0L, where you'll fall within the people competing for those things. Judges aren't doling out clerkships (let alone "prestigious" ones) to anyone at HLS that wants one. I'll reiterate that I don't think the focus should be on federal clerkships.

My vote remains with Duke.

It actually might be the worst post I've ever read on TLS outside of the first line.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Sorry us poor Duke students aren't good enough for you op. You should go to Harvard, because we don't like assholes down here.

Dude, you need to chill. The OP never said anything like that and this has been a pretty civil, thoughtful thread as these threads go. Don't derail that.

[shadowfax]

Heartfelt condolences on the loss of your parents.

Harvard. Particularly if you feel that through you efforts there you can accomplish your objectives. That sounds pretty simplistic even as I type it. Some people seem stuck on the concept that it is the odds of getting what you want based on class size comparisons. Success is not that random. You can make an informed opinion, by definition not with certainty, as to who is going to do what. Entrance stats, prior accomplishments, work experience all contribute to your chances of success (however you define that). Take law review for example. A lot of TLS analysis would have you look at the number of people on law review and divide by the class size. The reality is that a great number of people don't even try for law review. Write-on is a tremendous time commitment, as is law review itself should you succeed, and many people just know that it is not what they want. Now that I think of it everyone should go to the best small school they can get in because the odds of being editor of law review are really good. It must be a lay up to be the editor of Stanford's Law review, 1 in 170 compared to Harvard 1 in 565. It is a lot more than the odds that come into play. Bet on yourself.

If there are 85 clerkship slots at Harvard it is not that there are 565 people competing for them. Now this is true everywhere but the sheer number of slots works in Harvard's favor. Also class size can work for you. The fact that each year, year after year, Harvard places large numbers into great situations, creates a network that is in a league of its own.

Look at your own situation. If you feel that you could thrive in Cambridge then go. Yes it is worth is extra cost.

Good news...you can not go wrong. Duke with a Mordecai is an incredible opportunity and you will thrive there if that is your choice. Best of luck.

Pretty much disagree with all of this. Everyone going into HLS will have similar stats and "prior accomplishments". Even if some people self-select out of law review and clerkships, there is no way of knowing, as a 0L, where you'll fall within the people competing for those things. Judges aren't doling out clerkships (let alone "prestigious" ones) to anyone at HLS that wants one. I'll reiterate that I don't think the focus should be on federal clerkships.

My vote remains with Duke.

It actually might be the worst post I've ever read on TLS outside of the first line.

i was going to respond but then i checked out your most recent posts. Party on Garth. A unicorn killed my girlfriend?

[lymenheimer]

Sorry us poor Duke students aren't good enough for you op. You should go to Harvard, because we don't like assholes down here.

Dude, you need to chill. The OP never said anything like that and this has been a pretty civil, thoughtful thread as these threads go. Don't derail that.

if you read no chill in my statement then reevaluate. Maybe ill initiate my post with my tone. Dont care about op's comments personally, but its stupid to say H students are the best, when they can't even hold themselves up in the rankings. Also self-deprecating if op ends up at duke. But lol at anyone actually giving a shit about a comment on this site re: school opinion, especially from 0Ls.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Sorry us poor Duke students aren't good enough for you op. You should go to Harvard, because we don't like assholes down here.

Dude, you need to chill. The OP never said anything like that and this has been a pretty civil, thoughtful thread as these threads go. Don't derail that.

if you read no chill in my statement then reevaluate. Maybe ill initiate my post with my tone. Dont care about op's comments personally, but its stupid to say H students are the best, when they can't even hold themselves up in the rankings. Also self-deprecating if op ends up at duke. But lol at anyone actually giving a shit about a comment on this site re: school opinion, especially from 0Ls.

Pretty sure this post isn't making you look any more chill about this whole thing. Also think you might be mixing up OP with shadowfax? OP never said Harvard students are the best (whereas shadowfax is being predictably insufferable about Harvard).

[lymenheimer]

Sorry us poor Duke students aren't good enough for you op. You should go to Harvard, because we don't like assholes down here.

Dude, you need to chill. The OP never said anything like that and this has been a pretty civil, thoughtful thread as these threads go. Don't derail that.

if you read no chill in my statement then reevaluate. Maybe ill initiate my post with my tone. Dont care about op's comments personally, but its stupid to say H students are the best, when they can't even hold themselves up in the rankings. Also self-deprecating if op ends up at duke. But lol at anyone actually giving a shit about a comment on this site re: school opinion, especially from 0Ls.

Pretty sure this post isn't making you look any more chill about this whole thing. Also think you might be mixing up OP with shadowfax? OP never said Harvard students are the best (whereas shadowfax is being predictably insufferable about Harvard).

Nah it was op. I did misread the comment slightly, but not enough to justify withdrawing.

[Nacho_Verde]

Sorry us poor Duke students aren't good enough for you op. You should go to Harvard, because we don't like assholes down here.

Says one of the biggest antagonist on TLS.