GULC worth 40k more than GW? Forum

[Ferrisjso]

The reason i post despite being a OL is that if i dont people asking questions are going to see a pessamistic pessimistic consensus and think that certain decisions that arent aren't no brainers no-brainers actually are! If I thought people were giving generally good advice i wluldnt wouldn't post! Also(insert comma) this isnt isn't the place to discuss this because at the end of the day both choices OP could make arent aren't bad ones. If i I had all my decisions(insert comma) id I'd have made a choosing thread already!

Also though this is kind of pointlessly snotty.

Agreed, not one of my brighter moments.

Rescinded.

Well it is kind of my fault. I was a little careless today.

[BigZuck]

GULC is the no brainer choice here if you want to be a lawyer

I'm kind of getting a "Doesn't actually want to be a lawyer" vibe here though so I'm leaning toward "Don't go to law school" as my answer.

What kind of job are you actually hoping to get? What does your ideal career trajectory look like?

[leesmith7b89]

Thanks for all the advice. To follow up on a few questions:

Did you consider UVA? Living in the middle between Charlottesville and DC, or being temporarily a couple hours apart wouldn't kill ya. Shit, you could make a commute from UPenn to your SO every so often work too.

Definitely took serious time to consider this before eliminating as an option. Didn't want to get really into the personal weeds but SO is my fiancé who not only has a great career but is currently dealing with some health problems and I need to be around. UVA and Penn are attractive, but given my situation I will have to make GULC/GW work.

Dude, are you going to be able to live off your parents or will you need a job after you graduate?

I won't be destitute, but I have no intention of living some playboy lifestyle. I went to a T20 undergrad, studied hard, worked as a consultant, and want to go to law school because I value education and have my own ambitions for my life that are independent of anything I get from my parents.

[Npret]

Thanks for all the advice. To follow up on a few questions:

Did you consider UVA? Living in the middle between Charlottesville and DC, or being temporarily a couple hours apart wouldn't kill ya. Shit, you could make a commute from UPenn to your SO every so often work too.

Definitely took serious time to consider this before eliminating as an option. Didn't want to get really into the personal weeds but SO is my fiancé who not only has a great career but is currently dealing with some health problems and I need to be around. UVA and Penn are attractive, but given my situation I will have to make GULC/GW work.

Dude, are you going to be able to live off your parents or will you need a job after you graduate?

I won't be destitute, but I have no intention of living some playboy lifestyle. I went to a T20 undergrad, studied hard, worked as a consultant, and want to go to law school because I value education and have my own ambitions for my life that are independent of anything I get from my parents.

The first quote isn't me.
My question was how much will you need a good paying job when you graduate or will your parents support you while you do low paying political stuff? Will you be ok with workng for free as a volunteer for a year or two?

[BigZuck]

I can't help but think that someone who values education won't be majorly disappointed by what law school has to offer in that regard.

(I think this is where Nony and I argue about the worthlessness of law profs but I'm not exactly sure)

But seriously let's put the academic pursuit aside: Why do you want to go to law school? What is it going to offer you from a career perspective?

[Ferrisjso]

The reason i post despite being a OL is that if i dont people asking questions are going to see a pessamistic consensus and think that certain decisions that arent no brainers actually are!

Maybe reality is pessimistic.

You might have a point here. Also alot of the things you bring up all the time are clearly valid. I just think everyone goes to far and is to debt adverse. Keep in mind statistically speaking, most of the people going to law school are going in a situation that you guys would probably be against. The consensus on this board(especially chances and choosing a law school ones) are not the consensus among law students as a whole, not even close. I'm not qualified to give advice but I almost never see someone more qualified giving positive advice(and I know they exist I've met far far more optimistic OL's and lawyers than me in real life on this topic) and seeing that I was threatened with a ban and was compared to a drunk toddler for telling someone maybe they should go to GW(not exactly a dump) for free over GULC(again the kid doesn't seem that interested in legal practice maybe taking out no debt is a good idea?) I can see why no one intervenes. Apparently simply answering people's questions is harmful.

I don't want anyone to not go to law school because they think it's such a universally terrible idea when everyone on here tends to exaggerate. If someone asks a question people should assume the OP has done research and answer it in most cases. This thread isn't meant to save people(although that could be a good idea), it's meant to answer people's questions and the whole anti debt crusade has leaked into a bunch of threads where kids are in really good situations and shouldn't be hearing the negative stuff they are(this wasn't one of those thank god). OP actually had to ask for people to answer the question because people on here have a rep for not doing that(and of course one or two posters ignored this and started talking other schools despite OP saying he's locked in). For example on this thread people were acting like telling someone to go to GW for free over 40k(wasn't sure if it was a year or total) at GULC was terrible. The OP's choices really are both great ones and this shouldn't be a thread where the OP feels any negativity. Believe it or not I'm quite a moderate on debt adversity, I run into a bunch of kids who think paying near sticker to TTT's is a good idea(and 509's prove these people actually exist) and then many on here who are telling kids in the 160's to retake and are saying that telling someone to go to GW for free is dangerous.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I can't help but think that someone who values education won't be majorly disappointed by what law school has to offer in that regard.

(I think this is where Nony and I argue about the worthlessness of law profs but I'm not exactly sure)

But seriously let's put the academic pursuit aside: Why do you want to go to law school? What is it going to offer you from a career perspective?

Won't be or will be?

(And however much I defend profs I agree with you that going to law school for education for education's sake doesn't make any sense. Go into a PhD program if you want to go purely for the sake of learning. Except don't do that either.)

[Veil of Ignorance]

.

[UVA2B]

Back to OP. Go to GULC if you really want to be an attorney. I agree this sort of seems like you're mistakenly chasing law school for an interest in politics, but I'll leave that alone and assume you want a career as a lawyer (there is little correlation between working in policy/government and going to law school). Taking on $40k debt for significantly improved employment prospects is well worth it. And it's entirely possible (don't know your familial situation, so I could be way wrong here) your parents will see the value of the degree after you make the decision and show them the difference in employment prospects between the two and decide to pay for the difference anyway. It's actually a bit weird that they would quibble over this difference in cost, but again, not familiar with your family's outlook/viewpoint.

It might help them better understand the value of this difference if you show them https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gulc/ and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gw/ and explain how GULC's placement is objectively better in what the legal profession typically considers good employment outcomes (Big law firms & federal clerkships for judges). If you're unfamiliar with these metrics and why they are important, research more first and then explain it to them. They aren't the only good outcomes from law school, they're just the easiest to quantify as good outcomes. Some government jobs are great (you'll see a heavy amount of these at schools like GULC and GW due to their location), but there is nothing in a 509 report to differentiate a less than desirable state government position and doing Honors at the SEC. The same goes for the business category. It certainly could be F500 work, or it could be a barista at Starbucks. Nothing in the reports spells this out.

You're already in a better position than many of your future classmates because you won't be saddled with excessive debt. At that point, it's only prudent to give yourself the best chance of landing the career you eventually want, which GULC definitely gives you a leg up in. Good luck!

[timbs4339]

The reason i post despite being a OL is that if i dont people asking questions are going to see a pessamistic consensus and think that certain decisions that arent no brainers actually are!

Maybe reality is pessimistic.

You might have a point here. Also alot of the things you bring up all the time are clearly valid. I just think everyone goes to far and is to debt adverse. Keep in mind statistically speaking, most of the people going to law school are going in a situation that you guys would probably be against. The consensus on this board(especially chances and choosing a law school ones) are not the consensus among law students as a whole, not even close. I'm not qualified to give advice but I almost never see someone more qualified giving positive advice(and I know they exist I've met far far more optimistic OL's and lawyers than me in real life on this topic) and seeing that I was threatened with a ban and was compared to a drunk toddler for telling someone maybe they should go to GW(not exactly a dump) for free over GULC(again the kid doesn't seem that interested in legal practice maybe taking out no debt is a good idea?) I can see why no one intervenes. Apparently simply answering people's questions is harmful.

I don't want anyone to not go to law school because they think it's such a universally terrible idea when everyone on here tends to exaggerate. If someone asks a question people should assume the OP has done research and answer it in most cases. This thread isn't meant to save people(although that could be a good idea), it's meant to answer people's questions and the whole anti debt crusade has leaked into a bunch of threads where kids are in really good situations and shouldn't be hearing the negative stuff they are(this wasn't one of those thank god). OP actually had to ask for people to answer the question because people on here have a rep for not doing that(and of course one or two posters ignored this and started talking other schools despite OP saying he's locked in). For example on this thread people were acting like telling someone to go to GW for free over 40k(wasn't sure if it was a year or total) at GULC was terrible. The OP's choices really are both great ones and this shouldn't be a thread where the OP feels any negativity. Believe it or not I'm quite a moderate on debt adversity, I run into a bunch of kids who think paying near sticker to TTT's is a good idea(and 509's prove these people actually exist) and then many on here who are telling kids in the 160's to retake and are saying that telling someone to go to GW for free is dangerous.

That many law students are in worse situatuons doesn't make the OPs situation objectively good. That OP is in a place that you personally would want to be doesn't either. Law school isn't something totally random that just happens to you like a car accident or a medical condition. Whether GULC at sticker is a good option for OP depends on a lot of things - OPs numbers, prep so far, career goals, etc.

Now OP doesn't have debt because of her family situation but this means she also has the flexibility to do something interesting. The best way for OP to set herself up for entry into her chosen career after law school would be to work as a political staffer on the ground for a few years. This is even more true right now when (regardless of what side you are on) so much is going to be happening the next two years. OP, sitting in law school learning about RAP and hoping a job will come out of it may not be the best move in the immediate future.

[BigZuck]

I can't help but think that someone who values education won't be majorly disappointed by what law school has to offer in that regard.

(I think this is where Nony and I argue about the worthlessness of law profs but I'm not exactly sure)

But seriously let's put the academic pursuit aside: Why do you want to go to law school? What is it going to offer you from a career perspective?

Won't be or will be?

Don't work 12 hours on a Saturday and then try to post on TLS

Lesson learned

[lavarman84]

OP, any chance that your parents give in and pay full freight if you decide to go to GULC? Parents don't always follow through on threats. But you know your parents better than I do.

Either ways, GULC is the better option.

[acr]

OP, any chance that your parents give in and pay full freight if you decide to go to GULC? Parents don't always follow through on threats. But you know your parents better than I do.

Either ways, GULC is the better option.

I agree with this. Who knows what'll happen if they see that you're actually willing to put up the $40K for GULC. But as lawman said, you know your parents better than I do.

[armc808]

Georgetown. $40k is a drop (or maybe several drops) in the bucket compared to what you'll get in terms of employment opportunities and added prestige over a lifetime. If the $40k won't put you out on the street in the short-term, then go to Georgetown.

[mjb447]

OP, any chance that your parents give in and pay full freight if you decide to go to GULC? Parents don't always follow through on threats. But you know your parents better than I do.

Either ways, GULC is the better option.

I agree with this. Who knows what'll happen if they see that you're actually willing to put up the $40K for GULC. But as lawman said, you know your parents better than I do.

This is a good point. I assume OP has already tried 'educating' them about the outcome differences between the two schools (seems like a conversation that would be good to have if they're paying).

[vcap180]

Back to OP. Go to GULC if you really want to be an attorney. I agree this sort of seems like you're mistakenly chasing law school for an interest in politics, but I'll leave that alone and assume you want a career as a lawyer (there is little correlation between working in policy/government and going to law school). Taking on $40k debt for significantly improved employment prospects is well worth it. And it's entirely possible (don't know your familial situation, so I could be way wrong here) your parents will see the value of the degree after you make the decision and show them the difference in employment prospects between the two and decide to pay for the difference anyway. It's actually a bit weird that they would quibble over this difference in cost, but again, not familiar with your family's outlook/viewpoint.

It might help them better understand the value of this difference if you show them https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gulc/ and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gw/ and explain how GULC's placement is objectively better in what the legal profession typically considers good employment outcomes (Big law firms & federal clerkships for judges). If you're unfamiliar with these metrics and why they are important, research more first and then explain it to them. They aren't the only good outcomes from law school, they're just the easiest to quantify as good outcomes. Some government jobs are great (you'll see a heavy amount of these at schools like GULC and GW due to their location), but there is nothing in a 509 report to differentiate a less than desirable state government position and doing Honors at the SEC. The same goes for the business category. It certainly could be F500 work, or it could be a barista at Starbucks. Nothing in the reports spells this out.

You're already in a better position than many of your future classmates because you won't be saddled with excessive debt. At that point, it's only prudent to give yourself the best chance of landing the career you eventually want, which GULC definitely gives you a leg up in. Good luck!

I agree with your conclusion and most of your points. However, sending the LST links will likely be of little use. The difference in employment scores is negligible (~2%), and GTOWN actually shows a higher underemployment score.

So while you're correct, OP should prepare for a much more nuanced discussion and probably avoid those links altogether.

EDIT: since the BL/FC difference is only ~8%, it may be difficult for them to understand why that's worth another 40k. So again, you're right, but this is going to take quite a bit of convincing/explaining.

[UVA2B]

Back to OP. Go to GULC if you really want to be an attorney. I agree this sort of seems like you're mistakenly chasing law school for an interest in politics, but I'll leave that alone and assume you want a career as a lawyer (there is little correlation between working in policy/government and going to law school). Taking on $40k debt for significantly improved employment prospects is well worth it. And it's entirely possible (don't know your familial situation, so I could be way wrong here) your parents will see the value of the degree after you make the decision and show them the difference in employment prospects between the two and decide to pay for the difference anyway. It's actually a bit weird that they would quibble over this difference in cost, but again, not familiar with your family's outlook/viewpoint.

It might help them better understand the value of this difference if you show them https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gulc/ and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gw/ and explain how GULC's placement is objectively better in what the legal profession typically considers good employment outcomes (Big law firms & federal clerkships for judges). If you're unfamiliar with these metrics and why they are important, research more first and then explain it to them. They aren't the only good outcomes from law school, they're just the easiest to quantify as good outcomes. Some government jobs are great (you'll see a heavy amount of these at schools like GULC and GW due to their location), but there is nothing in a 509 report to differentiate a less than desirable state government position and doing Honors at the SEC. The same goes for the business category. It certainly could be F500 work, or it could be a barista at Starbucks. Nothing in the reports spells this out.

You're already in a better position than many of your future classmates because you won't be saddled with excessive debt. At that point, it's only prudent to give yourself the best chance of landing the career you eventually want, which GULC definitely gives you a leg up in. Good luck!

I agree with your conclusion and most of your points. However, sending the LST links will likely be of little use. The difference in employment scores is negligible (~2%), and GTOWN actually shows a higher underemployment score.

So while you're correct, OP should prepare for a much more nuanced discussion and probably avoid those links altogether.

EDIT: since the BL/FC difference is only ~8%, it may be difficult for them to understand why that's worth another 40k. So again, you're right, but this is going to take quite a bit of convincing/explaining.

It's obviously more involved than just linking them to LST. It's knowing the nuance in those numbers, being able to accurately describe why those numbers matter, and persuasively push why it's a good value investment to go to GULC over GW. And while 8% may seem somewhat insignificant, we're actually talking about nearly 60 students at large schools that have big transfer classes.

So while I completely agree the links alone aren't sufficiently persuasive, they should be the primary types of tools the OP should use in describing why the $40k is a sound investment.

[TLSModBot]

I'm seeing a lot of positive words being bandied about

Let's keep it all in perspective: GULC is juuuuuust this side of a dumpster fire, and GW is in the middle of the burning refuse pile.

[waldorf]

GULC without question. If you don't have to worry about COL, 40k in tuition really isn't much to worry about when you consider the difference in opportunity.

[vcap180]

I'm seeing a lot of positive words being bandied about

Let's keep it all in perspective: GULC is juuuuuust this side of a dumpster fire, and GW is in the middle of the burning refuse pile.

Meh, at the prices being discussed here, OP could escape either situation unburned.

But your broader point is kind of why I made my previous post: in terms of employment scores, underemployment scores, and FC/BL numbers, these two schools are surprisingly comparable (and not all that attractive).

Accordingly, there must be some other factors that account for Gtttowns "overwheleming" edge here: lay prestttige? Degree portability? Both? Idk?

[TLSModBot]

I'm seeing a lot of positive words being bandied about

Let's keep it all in perspective: GULC is juuuuuust this side of a dumpster fire, and GW is in the middle of the burning refuse pile.

Meh, at the prices being discussed here, OP could escape either situation unburned.

But your broader point is kind of why I made my previous post: in terms of employment scores, underemployment scores, and FC/BL numbers, these two schools are surprisingly comparable (and not all that attractive).

Accordingly, there must be some other factors that account for Gtttowns "overwheleming" edge here: lay prestttige? Degree portability? Both? Idk?

I think the thinking has been this: at 70 to 75% Biglaw, it's not that impressive a jump, but when we're talking at or below 50%, every little bit matters.

As a GULC grad who knows numerous GW folk, there's no general difference in quality of student or resulting lawyer. I think enough Biglaw firms consistently hire GULC students every year in a way I don't see for GW, but again the hard numbers are ultimately what matters here for comparison purposes.

[vcap180]

I'm seeing a lot of positive words being bandied about

Let's keep it all in perspective: GULC is juuuuuust this side of a dumpster fire, and GW is in the middle of the burning refuse pile.

Meh, at the prices being discussed here, OP could escape either situation unburned.

But your broader point is kind of why I made my previous post: in terms of employment scores, underemployment scores, and FC/BL numbers, these two schools are surprisingly comparable (and not all that attractive).

Accordingly, there must be some other factors that account for Gtttowns "overwheleming" edge here: lay prestttige? Degree portability? Both? Idk?

I think the thinking has been this: at 70 to 75% Biglaw, it's not that impressive a jump, but when we're talking at or below 50%, every little bit matters.

As a GULC grad who knows numerous GW folk, there's no general difference in quality of student or resulting lawyer. I think enough Biglaw firms consistently hire GULC students every year in a way I don't see for GW, but again the hard numbers are ultimately what matters here for comparison purposes.

Interesting and well said - particularly the bold. I never really thought about that, but it obviously makes sense.

[jlc058]

I'm seeing a lot of positive words being bandied about

Let's keep it all in perspective: GULC is juuuuuust this side of a dumpster fire, and GW is in the middle of the burning refuse pile.

Meh, at the prices being discussed here, OP could escape either situation unburned.

But your broader point is kind of why I made my previous post: in terms of employment scores, underemployment scores, and FC/BL numbers, these two schools are surprisingly comparable (and not all that attractive).

Accordingly, there must be some other factors that account for Gtttowns "overwheleming" edge here: lay prestttige? Degree portability? Both? Idk?

I am also curious about this as someone who is considering both schools. I know when you hear the names its Georgetown OBVIOUSLY but I am not seeing any huge difference in the employment statistics and am trying to figure out what makes it so obvious. They place slightly higher in big law but if someone isn't interested in that...what is the benefit?

[BigZuck]

I'm seeing a lot of positive words being bandied about

Let's keep it all in perspective: GULC is juuuuuust this side of a dumpster fire, and GW is in the middle of the burning refuse pile.

Meh, at the prices being discussed here, OP could escape either situation unburned.

But your broader point is kind of why I made my previous post: in terms of employment scores, underemployment scores, and FC/BL numbers, these two schools are surprisingly comparable (and not all that attractive).

Accordingly, there must be some other factors that account for Gtttowns "overwheleming" edge here: lay prestttige? Degree portability? Both? Idk?

I am also curious about this as someone who is considering both schools. I know when you hear the names its Georgetown OBVIOUSLY but I am not seeing any huge difference in the employment statistics and am trying to figure out what makes it so obvious. They place slightly higher in big law but if someone isn't interested in that...what is the benefit?

Big law percentage is more than slightly higher. There's a difference in small firm percentage. I'm more inclined to believe the big law numbers is real, actual big law in the case of Georgetown. I'm not too up on how much each school games their employment stats with public interest percentages so someone else will have to comment on that.

There's a pretty sizeable difference in TX when it comes to employment opportunities for Georgetown grads vs UT grads. I imagine the chasm is even wider for Georgetown grads vs George Washington grads when it comes to D.C. employment.

If you're not interested in big law that's great but maybe neither school is the answer in that case. It depends on what you are interested in.

All else being equal I'd pick GULC over GW all day err day

[UVA2B]

I'm seeing a lot of positive words being bandied about

Let's keep it all in perspective: GULC is juuuuuust this side of a dumpster fire, and GW is in the middle of the burning refuse pile.

Meh, at the prices being discussed here, OP could escape either situation unburned.

But your broader point is kind of why I made my previous post: in terms of employment scores, underemployment scores, and FC/BL numbers, these two schools are surprisingly comparable (and not all that attractive).

Accordingly, there must be some other factors that account for Gtttowns "overwheleming" edge here: lay prestttige? Degree portability? Both? Idk?

I am also curious about this as someone who is considering both schools. I know when you hear the names its Georgetown OBVIOUSLY but I am not seeing any huge difference in the employment statistics and am trying to figure out what makes it so obvious. They place slightly higher in big law but if someone isn't interested in that...what is the benefit?

Put simply, when you're talking about other types of employment (non-biglaw/art. III clerk), your goals become even more important in picking a school/debt load. You've previously mentioned doing ACLU type work, and it may not be intuitive, but those types of jobs seem to be even more prestige sensitive than the others because the jobs available are so scarce. I'm not sure GULC gives appreciably better opps at a place like ACLU, but that's likely more a product of neither being great options.

If you want general PI, nonprofit work, they are likely fungible mostly, meaning you're better off saving money in preparation for dat PSLF?/$40k lifestyle. But again, your goals (specific goals, as in orgs you'd like to work for) will be more informative in picking between the two.