Penn v Temple (full) Forum

[mdnorth35]

I wouldn't assume that you can't get into a Big Law job at Temple.

I'm not sure that's the assumption at all. Pretty sure it's more that at Temple, you have a double-digit percent chance at not having a legal job and maybe 20% chance at getting some sort of market paying biglaw.

All of that is true but here is where I would go back to the fact that his/her LSAT would put him/her very close to the top of the class at Temple. There is plenty of research that shows a strong correlation between LSAT score and law school performance. Thus, if he/she performs at or near that rate at Temple, s/he will be in the top 20% that do go to big law jobs. Plus, the fact that s/he has a full scholarship on top of that, that mitigates some of the danger on the bottom end whereas there is no such protection if you immediately have $300k of law school debt on the day you graduate at Penn.

That last post in the quote should not be considered. There is not "plenty of research" that shows a strong correlation between LSAT scores and law school performance (also insert correlation does not equal causation statement to make myself sound smart). This debate has been had multiple times so I'm just trying to alert you OP to not listen to high LSAT = high grades BS.

I would still take Temple if I was you though, but you're still going to have to study your ass off to finish high there. Everyone at Temple is going to know what the biglaw % is so they will be studying just as much or more than you in their attempt to get a high paying job.

(1) Perhaps I should have been more clear. Even the most pessimistic study analyzing LSAT scores and law school performance have found that there is a pretty strong correlation between LSAT scores and 1L grades. 1L grades get you a 2L summer gig and will also probably get you a federal judicial clerkship as well during your 2L year. Both of those two things will get you a biglaw job when you graduate presuming you don't totally bomb after that. https://www.quora.com/How-good-is-the-L ... law-school

(2) Thanks for explaining correlation and causation. As I'm sure you are aware, proving that a pre-law school test score causes you to do well in law school is absurd on its face given both blind grading and the fact that you really couldn't do a real randomized control trial to prove causation. Instead, you need to run a regression controlling for certain objective variables or use some other quasi-research design to understand the relationship between any two variables. But hey, never lose an opportunity to be snarky or cutting on an anonymous message board, am I right?

(3) At least we agree that Temple makes sense given all the variables.

[Clemenceau]

I want to note that OP mentioned having minimal ties to philly. Getting philly biglaw from temple with minimal ties is gonna be a seriously uphill battle. I doubt top 20% of the class would be sufficient, given that philly is very ties sensitive, and only about 17% of temples class gets bl/fc.

Edit: this isn't an attempt to endorse penn at sticker either.

[Jmart082]

I want to note that OP mentioned having minimal ties to philly. Getting philly biglaw from temple with minimal ties is gonna be a seriously uphill battle. I doubt top 20% of the class would be sufficient, given that philly is very ties sensitive, and only about 17% of temples class gets bl/fc.

Edit: this isn't an attempt to endorse penn at sticker either.

Good catch.That complicates matters.

[Today]

I want to note that OP mentioned having minimal ties to philly. Getting philly biglaw from temple with minimal ties is gonna be a seriously uphill battle. I doubt top 20% of the class would be sufficient, given that philly is very ties sensitive, and only about 17% of temples class gets bl/fc.

Edit: this isn't an attempt to endorse penn at sticker either.

The lack of ties was definitely a concern, not just for big law, but employment in general.

[Jmart082]

I want to note that OP mentioned having minimal ties to philly. Getting philly biglaw from temple with minimal ties is gonna be a seriously uphill battle. I doubt top 20% of the class would be sufficient, given that philly is very ties sensitive, and only about 17% of temples class gets bl/fc.

Edit: this isn't an attempt to endorse penn at sticker either.

The lack of ties was definitely a concern, not just for big law, but employment in general.

I mean, never underestimate the power of networking. I'd argue that excellent networking abilities is starting to take precedence over class rank in a profession increasingly rife with socially awkward types, but yes, a lack of ties can be a problem, but can be mitigated somewhat if you can secure positions of some kind in Philly over the course of your first two years (I wouldn't worry about how prestigious the place may be until second year). It would show that you're committed to staying there. But honestly, both options present a big trade off, one in terms of risk of not getting a lucrative firm position, and the other in terms of financial obligation. I'd personally fold and see if better results materialize next cycle, but if I had to choose, I'd still choose Temple. If Penn turned into acceptance, I'd simply use it as leverage for some kind of a stipend.

[jchiles]

If thats your career goal you should probably just go to Penn. The debt sucks but if you go to Temple there is a very good chance you will not be able to get the job you want, and a decent chance you don't get a job at all or at least not one that you are happy about.

I think the ties stuff is a little overstated, having a spouse who works in the city, and living there before you applied, count for something and I know several people with much weaker connections to Philadelphia that found work in that market.

ETA: working for the state and small or "mid" sized firms aren't necessarily that easy to get, even if you do well at Temple. If you end up going there you will be competing with everyone else at the school (and other schools in the state, plus practicing attorneys) that view these positions at very good outcomes.

[Toni V]

One reason why I selected Penn is because the odds are exceedingly high (66.3%) that you will start out at a firm that pays $160k or more. Temple is such a crap shoot at 11.9%.

[Stats LST]

[Today]

If thats your career goal you should probably just go to Penn. The debt sucks but if you go to Temple there is a very good chance you will not be able to get the job you want, and a decent chance you don't get a job at all or at least not one that you are happy about.

I think the ties stuff is a little overstated, having a spouse who works in the city, and living there before you applied, count for something and I know several people with much weaker connections to Philadelphia that found work in that market.

ETA: working for the state and small or "mid" sized firms aren't necessarily that easy to get, even if you do well at Temple. If you end up going there you will be competing with everyone else at the school (and other schools in the state, plus practicing attorneys) that view these positions at very good outcomes.

I've tried to research and talk to attorneys to figure out how difficult it is to land one of these positions. It's hard to get a good idea of what to expect.

[jchiles]

If thats your career goal you should probably just go to Penn. The debt sucks but if you go to Temple there is a very good chance you will not be able to get the job you want, and a decent chance you don't get a job at all or at least not one that you are happy about.

I think the ties stuff is a little overstated, having a spouse who works in the city, and living there before you applied, count for something and I know several people with much weaker connections to Philadelphia that found work in that market.

ETA: working for the state and small or "mid" sized firms aren't necessarily that easy to get, even if you do well at Temple. If you end up going there you will be competing with everyone else at the school (and other schools in the state, plus practicing attorneys) that view these positions at very good outcomes.

I've tried to research and talk to attorneys to figure out how difficult it is to land one of these positions. It's hard to get a good idea of what to expect.

Yeah i don't know any real good way to figure that out either unfortunately, state hiring is always a function of the budget available but I have several friends who are not getting in to the state even after interning or working there continuously through law school. Small firms vary so much in terms of when they hire, what they pay, and what they are looking for that its hard to get a great idea on how to target them.

I was in a similar position to you (full ride at Temple and all other PA schools) and ended up taking the money, but I knew I wanted to stay in the state and wasn't seriously targeting Philly or large firms. What worked for me in getting a position with a smaller firm was networking a lot, having good grades (idk if most of these firms are grade conscious but it never hurts), and getting really really lucky.

[Johann]

So I'm on the wait list at Penn and just got the feeler call. Please help with this really difficult decision.

Penn ($305,000 tuition and COL) Temple ($82,000 COL). The COL is the max, but I do live somewhat frugally for whatever that's worth. Spouse is a teacher, so only a little help with living costs. $20k in undergrad debt.

Financing through loans.
I'm from PA, but I only have very minimal ties to Philly. I hope to work in Philly, DC, NYC.

Generally, I am interested in business/corporate transactional law. I would like to clerk, but it's not a requirement. I would like to work big law for a few years and try to move in house eventually. I know that if I went to Penn, this would probably be my only option. At Temple, I know that in all reality, I would be grateful for a position at small to mid size firm. Because I currently work for the state and have professional ties in a few departments, I would also consider working for the state in some capacity after school.

169 3.39
So, I knew I would have to do well on the LSAT with my lower GPA. I took it twice 159 & 169. I spent 1 month studying before the first time and 4 months before the second. I took about 30 tests, was averaging 165 and my highest PT was a 168, so the 169 was a bit of a fluke. I honestly feel I maxed out my potential and my GPA is going to hold me back regardless, which makes me think a retake wouldn't help.

I know this decision is really two different ends of the spectrum, but I applied to 17 schools and just didn't find a middle ground. Either I didn't get enough $$ at schools that place grads nationally or I just wasn't interested in working in the region after school. So I went down my list and got to Temple. It seems like I'm taking a huge gamble at either school.

TLS, you've been so helpful, please help me figure out what to do. Thanks

If you want biglaw and are going to wonder what if, you have to take Penn. Government loan repayment programs exist in case you want to do something other than biglaw.

[Today]

If thats your career goal you should probably just go to Penn. The debt sucks but if you go to Temple there is a very good chance you will not be able to get the job you want, and a decent chance you don't get a job at all or at least not one that you are happy about.

I think the ties stuff is a little overstated, having a spouse who works in the city, and living there before you applied, count for something and I know several people with much weaker connections to Philadelphia that found work in that market.

ETA: working for the state and small or "mid" sized firms aren't necessarily that easy to get, even if you do well at Temple. If you end up going there you will be competing with everyone else at the school (and other schools in the state, plus practicing attorneys) that view these positions at very good outcomes.

I've tried to research and talk to attorneys to figure out how difficult it is to land one of these positions. It's hard to get a good idea of what to expect.

Yeah i don't know any real good way to figure that out either unfortunately, state hiring is always a function of the budget available but I have several friends who are not getting in to the state even after interning or working there continuously through law school. Small firms vary so much in terms of when they hire, what they pay, and what they are looking for that its hard to get a great idea on how to target them.

I was in a similar position to you (full ride at Temple and all other PA schools) and ended up taking the money, but I knew I wanted to stay in the state and wasn't seriously targeting Philly or large firms. What worked for me in getting a position with a smaller firm was networking a lot, having good grades (idk if most of these firms are grade conscious but it never hurts), and getting really really lucky.

You mentioned your friends' difficulties finding work; as far as you know, did most end up with some sort of legal position? LST is only so helpful when it comes to determining outcomes.

It seems like if I go with Temple and don't end up in top 15%, it all comes down to hustling, networking, and luck. I just want to get a good idea of what happens to those that aren't employed 10 months after graduation. I've been reading the vale, which makes me lean towards Penn, but then I read some pages from 'student loan payments: actual number' and change my mind again.

[BoobGoddess]

Temple w/full scholarship. You really have no idea how you'll do at law school. I know people at Penn who got mostly B minuses their first semester and a discretionary C the next semester brought them below 2.7. In short, they were screwed over for OCI.

[Johann]

It seems like if I go with Temple and don't end up in top 15%, it all comes down to hustling, networking, and luck. I just want to get a good idea of what happens to those that aren't employed 10 months after graduation. I've been reading the vale, which makes me lean towards Penn, but then I read some pages from 'student loan payments: actual number' and change my mind again.

re top 15%: that's not how this works. i was top 15% and worked in a job making $36K after graduating. my friend who was top 10% and law review worked for a solo making something similar. the top 5% of law review got some decent jobs, but after that it's a lot of luck and connections. there were people below median from my TTT that got biglaw while people on law review didnt. just something to consider.

and worst case scenario your job will be a doc reviewer making ~$25/hr. those jobs are available for any and all who want them. again, i graduated from a TTT with probably >20% unemployed at 10 months by the stats, but everyone had some sort of job. people feel jaded by law school and lie if they dont have the job they want, but there are plenty of shitty law or non-law jobs available to law school grads. just depends what you're willing to do.

[Jmart082]

Does anybody know how Penn's feeler interview works? Is it like other schools? A formality before acceptance? It seems odd that they'd be pulling off of the waitlist this late into the cycle. If it's not the case that they typically extend an offer after the interview, then I feel that there might be a slight case of counting chickens that haven't hatched yet going on here. It doesn't change my view that the best option here is to go where the scholarship is, I'm just curious.

[Today]

Does anybody know how Penn's feeler interview works? Is it like other schools? A formality before acceptance? It seems odd that they'd be pulling off of the waitlist this late into the cycle. If it's not the case that they typically extend an offer after the interview, then I feel that there might be a slight case of counting chickens that haven't hatched yet going on here. It doesn't change my view that the best option here is to go where the scholarship is, I'm just curious.

Not an interview, just a phone call gauging my interest. From my understanding, it's a matter of admissions not wanting to extend an offer that would be rejected at this point. Someone else was accepted off of the wait list on 7/8.

Regardless, they asked for an answer by Monday, so I still have to make a decision.

[Jmart082]

Does anybody know how Penn's feeler interview works? Is it like other schools? A formality before acceptance? It seems odd that they'd be pulling off of the waitlist this late into the cycle. If it's not the case that they typically extend an offer after the interview, then I feel that there might be a slight case of counting chickens that haven't hatched yet going on here. It doesn't change my view that the best option here is to go where the scholarship is, I'm just curious.

Not an interview, just a phone call gauging my interest. From my understanding, it's a matter of admissions not wanting to extend an offer that would be rejected at this point. Someone else was accepted off of the wait list on 7/8.

Regardless, they asked for an answer by Monday, so I still have to make a decision.

I see. Thanks for clarifying.

[Shootin]

Did you have no other options? Since you want biglaw, did you not apply to Cornell?

Rejected

At every one of your other alternatives?

Gulc was next, I got a token scholarship, wasn't ready to risk that much debt for the 50/50 chance at big law.
WUSTL - not enough $
GW - Not enough $

Because of my regional preferences, I just wasn't interested in most T1 schools.

While better, its not like at Penn your odds are vastly different. You have more than 1/3 chance of ending up with 300k in loans and a 60k job. And nobody who goes to Penn plans to end up in a situation like that, but people still do. All I am saying is that you risk your life by going to Penn and that you got pretty much no risks by going to Temple.

[Johann]

Did you have no other options? Since you want biglaw, did you not apply to Cornell?

Rejected

At every one of your other alternatives?

Gulc was next, I got a token scholarship, wasn't ready to risk that much debt for the 50/50 chance at big law.
WUSTL - not enough $
GW - Not enough $

Because of my regional preferences, I just wasn't interested in most T1 schools.

While better, its not like at Penn your odds are vastly different. You have more than 1/3 chance of ending up with 300k in loans and a 60k job. And nobody who goes to Penn plans to end up in a situation like that, but people still do. All I am saying is that you risk your life by going to Penn and that you got pretty much no risks by going to Temple.

this is really shitty analysis. 80K in loans is a lot of loans still. It's a significant enough debt level to be forced onto PAYE if he goes to Temple and things don't pan out. in the converse, it's highly unlikely a Penn graduate in the one of the worst case scenarios can't service a 300K debt level over a 30 year career. there isn't a 1/3 chance that a Penn graduate is making 60K -75% of Penn grads in 2014 made 125K+ in their first 9 months after graduation. Once you factor in the 10% clerks, safe to say that 90%+ of Penn grads will have the opportunity of making 150K+ within their first 3 years of their career.

Anyways, PAYE takes the downside risk out of this stuff. There is no life ruining situation with PAYE.

[nealric]

Does anybody know how Penn's feeler interview works? Is it like other schools? A formality before acceptance? It seems odd that they'd be pulling off of the waitlist this late into the cycle. If it's not the case that they typically extend an offer after the interview, then I feel that there might be a slight case of counting chickens that haven't hatched yet going on here. It doesn't change my view that the best option here is to go where the scholarship is, I'm just curious.

Not an interview, just a phone call gauging my interest. From my understanding, it's a matter of admissions not wanting to extend an offer that would be rejected at this point. Someone else was accepted off of the wait list on 7/8.

Regardless, they asked for an answer by Monday, so I still have to make a decision.

Take the Penn offer and don't look back.