Penn VS NYU ($ VS $) Forum

[cavalier1138]

Peer schools gonna peer. But if you're gonna argue that NYU's PI programs give their numbers an edge, than you can just as easily argue that Penn's consistent corporate placement and a number of JD/MBAs entering non-legal jobs gives them an edge as well. We could make these arguments all day and have no clear answer.

OP should go where he/she is most comfortable and enjoy law school. She should be fine either way, at least for NYC biglaw.

Oh, absolutely. I was just explaining why NYU would be considered a peer school when their BL+FC numbers don't seem to be on a par with Penn's.

[Glacial]

Part of the reason NYU has lower biglaw numbers (they place more students in federal clerkships than Penn) is...

Are sure about that (which is only true for C/O 2011) ?

C/O 2015
Penn : BL (101+) 161/246 (65.45%) + FC 28/246 (11.38%) = 189/246 (76.82%)
NYU : BL (101+) 303/485 (62.47%) + FC 27/485 (5.56%) = 330/485 (68.04%)
C/O 2014
Penn : BL (101+) 192/278 (69.06%) + FC 25/278 (8.99%) = 217/278 (78.05%)
NYU : BL (101+) 308/479 (64.30%) + FC 35/479 (7.30%) = 343/479 (71.60%)
C/O 2013
Penn : BL (101+) 155/259 (59.84%) + FC 25/259 (9.65%) = 180/259 (69.49%)
NYU : BL (101+) 313/537 (52.28% + FC 47/537 (8.75%) = 360/537 (67.03%)
C/O 2012
Penn : BL (101+) 180/270 (66.66%) + FC 28/270 (10.37%) = 208/270 (77.03%)
NYU : BL (101+) 287/482 (59.54%) + FC 27/482 (5.60%) = 314/482 (65.14%)
C/O 2011
Penn : BL (101+) 160/274 (58.39%) + FC 26/274 (9.48%) = 186/274 (67.88%)
NYU : BL (101+) 201/466 (43.13%) + FC 51/466 (10.94%) = 252/466 (54.07%)
C/O 2010
Penn : BL (101+) 162/276 (58.69%) + FC 29/276 (10.51%) = 191/276 (69.20%)
NYU : BL (101+) 281/497 (56.53%) + FC 51/497 (10.26%) = 332/497 (66.80%)
Avg. c/o 2010-2015
Penn : BL (101+) 1010/1603 (63.01%) + FC 161/1603 (10.04%) = 1171/1603 (73.05%)
NYU : BL (101+) 1693/2946 (57.47%) + FC 238/2946 (8.08%) = 1931/2946 (65.55%)

[cavalier1138]

Part of the reason NYU has lower biglaw numbers (they place more students in federal clerkships than Penn) is...

Are sure about that (which is only true for C/O 2011) ?

C/O 2015
Penn : BL (101+) 161/246 (65.45%) + FC 28/246 (11.38%) = 189/246 (76.82%)
NYU : BL (101+) 303/485 (62.47%) + FC 27/485 (5.56%) = 330/485 (68.04%)
C/O 2014
Penn : BL (101+) 192/278 (69.06%) + FC 25/278 (8.99%) = 217/278 (78.05%)
NYU : BL (101+) 308/479 (64.30%) + FC 35/479 (7.30%) = 343/479 (71.60%)
C/O 2013
Penn : BL (101+) 155/259 (59.84%) + FC 25/259 (9.65%) = 180/259 (69.49%)
NYU : BL (101+) 313/537 (52.28% + FC 47/537 (8.75%) = 360/537 (67.03%)
C/O 2012
Penn : BL (101+) 180/270 (66.66%) + FC 28/270 (10.37%) = 208/270 (77.03%)
NYU : BL (101+) 287/482 (59.54%) + FC 27/482 (5.60%) = 314/482 (65.14%)
C/O 2011
Penn : BL (101+) 160/274 (58.39%) + FC 26/274 (9.48%) = 186/274 (67.88%)
NYU : BL (101+) 201/466 (43.13%) + FC 51/466 (10.94%) = 252/466 (54.07%)
C/O 2010
Penn : BL (101+) 162/276 (58.69%) + FC 29/276 (10.51%) = 191/276 (69.20%)
NYU : BL (101+) 281/497 (56.53%) + FC 51/497 (10.26%) = 332/497 (66.80%)
Avg. c/o 2010-2015
Penn : BL (101+) 1010/1603 (63.01%) + FC 161/1603 (10.04%) = 1171/1603 (73.05%)
NYU : BL (101+) 1693/2946 (57.47%) + FC 238/2946 (8.08%) = 1931/2946 (65.55%)

Yes.

Federal clerkships are, to my understanding, a lot like PI when you want to analyze the numbers. Because of the somewhat self-selecting nature, the raw number is more important than the percentage of the student body going into clerkships. It's not quite as strong a relationship as PI, because a lot of people go after clerkships solely for the prestige factor, but it's not the default choice like biglaw is.

At any rate, it's a moot point. The main question was why NYU and Penn are considered peer schools despite the numerical difference in biglaw numbers, and the answer is PI.

[coocooforcoacoapuffs]

Let's say Penn were to up their offer by 20-30K; would that be reason enough to pick Penn over NYU (ignoring considerations of "fit")?

[cavalier1138]

Let's say Penn were to up their offer by 20-30K; would that be reason enough to pick Penn over NYU (ignoring considerations of "fit")?

I think it would still be down to "fit". The difference in the offer between these schools would have to be significant ($50k+) to make one of them the objectively better choice for your goals.

[TheRealSantaClaus]

.

[coocooforcoacoapuffs]

But the general wisdom is that 50K difference in total scholarship package would be reason enough to pick a school (between these two)?

[Glacial]

Because of the somewhat self-selecting nature, the raw number is more important than the percentage of the student body going into clerkships.

What's the main factor for that self-selection if it isn't the school's ability to help you secure that position? Statistically, the odds look slightly better at Penn (10%>8%). If you prefer NYU for other reasons, that's OK. But BL/FC or BL+FC stats shouldn't be one, as they favor Penn.

[cavalier1138]

Because of the somewhat self-selecting nature, the raw number is more important than the percentage of the student body going into clerkships.

What's the main factor for that self-selection if it isn't the school's ability to help you secure that position? Statistically, the odds look slightly better at Penn (10%>8%). If you prefer NYU for other reasons, that's OK. But BL/FC or BL+FC stats shouldn't be one, as they favor Penn.

The main factor for self-selection is interest, not the school's ability to get you the position. For example, Chicago doesn't objectively have less support for its graduates who want to go in to PI, but since no one really goes there who wants to do PI, there isn't the same level of emphasis as there is at NYU/Columbia/Berkeley. The sticky at the top of the forum explains a fair amount about why raw numbers are more important for something like PI, and federal clerkships are affected by some of the same factors.

The thing to remember is that biglaw is the default at these schools. Federal clerkships aren't quite the same as PI (as mentioned, the prestige factor is important to a lot of would-be partners/government folks), but it's still a job that a lot of people won't even bother with if they're going into a big firm. Federal judges also aren't going to heavily favor one school in their hiring. There are a limited number of clerkships to give out each year, and once you get out of HYS, T10 schools largely get similar numbers of federal clerks. It wouldn't make sense, from a hiring perspective, to hire significantly more NYU students just because there are more to choose from.

If you were to go solely by percentages, then UC Irvine is one of the best schools in the nation for federal clerk placement. But I hope no one's recommending Irvine as a goal school for someone who wants to clerk federally.

And again, this is all a total moot point. Penn and NYU are peers in the area that the OP is interested in, so all it comes down to is fit/money.

[coocooforcoacoapuffs]

UPDATE:

What would you do?

Penn: 85K - ~194K in debt at repayment
NYU: 75K - ~233K in debt at repayment

Even if I lean slightly toward NYU (as I love NYC), is this enough $$ difference to make Penn a clear choice?

Time sensitive, so quick replies would be appreciated!

[landshoes]

If you love NYC I'd go for it. The difference in cost isn't that much and it's valuable to live in NYC.

I don't think NYU is that much more valuable without that factor, though.