Really need help deciding!!!!!!! Driving myself nuts! Forum

[pancakes3]

The point was that if I go to Miami, I'm prepared to live/practice in Florida..same goes for St. John's in NY.

The real question is if you prepared to live/not-be-able-to-find-work in Florida... with the same going for NY?

edit: Hey, your life buddy.

[Effingham]

Yeah, it is important that you know you cannot do IP law without a degree in some sort of hard science like biology or chemistry or engineering. It's a requirement in order to take the patent bar. Also, sports and entertainment law isn't really a thing, so you will need to develop better goals than that.

Just to reiterate what other posters have said, everyone has significant personal circumstances that make life difficult and make re-taking a very tough decision. But I can promise you, your future self will thank you for persevering and you will be a better person for it.

[ponderingmeerkat]

I feel Frank Costello has some LSAT advice that applies here:

"No Tickie, No Laundry."

If you can't haul in a competitive LSAT then just think how hard getting competitive 1L grades will be...at least ones that will afford you a solid shot at employment. The LSAT is just the beginning, brotha! After that you have 1L year, an SA gig (if you're lucky), the MPRE, the bar. I promise, your personal circumstances aren't such that you must commit financial Hari Kari by going to one of these law schools at these COAs. Either get a good LSAT and good law school options, or don't go to law school. No Tickie, No Laundry.

[youtube]ka10-82ZNxY[/youtube]

[zimryan]

Yeah, it is important that you know you cannot do IP law without a degree in some sort of hard science like biology or chemistry or engineering. It's a requirement in order to take the patent bar. Also, sports and entertainment law isn't really a thing, so you will need to develop better goals than that.

Just to reiterate what other posters have said, everyone has significant personal circumstances that make life difficult and make re-taking a very tough decision. But I can promise you, your future self will thank you for persevering and you will be a better person for it.

I hear you, but how is saying "I'm interested in Immigration Law, Real Estate Law, International Business Law, Securities, etc." any more of a developed career goal?

[zimryan]

[quote="ponderingmeerkat"]I feel Frank Costello has some LSAT advice that applies here:

"No Tickie, No Laundry."

If you can't haul in a competitive LSAT then just think how hard getting competitive 1L grades will be...at least ones that will afford you a solid shot at employment. The LSAT is just the beginning, brotha! After that you have 1L year, an SA gig (if you're lucky), the MPRE, the bar. I promise, your personal circumstances aren't such that you must commit financial Hari Kari by going to one of these law schools at these COAs. Either get a good LSAT and good law school options, or don't go to law school. No Tickie, No Laundry.



Not committing financial suicide at COA of 35k or 15k per year. Thankfully I have financial support from my parents.

[Mullens]

The proper way to look at it is you have to pick a school that will allow you to achieve your goals at a reasonable price. It is not about T14 or bust. That's not a real thing here, it's just the strawman that people who don't like their advice like to throw out to justify their decision to ignore good advice.

Absent incredibly strong personal connections (you're lifelong friends with current/future professional athletes), sports law is probably not going to happen for you. Sports law is a very small part of the profession that a lot of people, like you, want to practice. To the extent "sports law" exists, it does so mainly at a handful of biglaw firms that are very unlikely to hire you from any of these schools. IP law has the constraint that another poster explained is will be nearly impossible for you to practice without a strong hard sciences background. Entertainment law is a slightly larger field, but it mostly exists at biglaw firms and highly selective boutiques and mostly in California. None of these schools get you anywhere near your stated goals and are therefore poor schools for you to attend and why the answer defaults to the retake chorus; it's often an easier way to indicate to people that they are making a bad decision.

[Effingham]

Yeah, it is important that you know you cannot do IP law without a degree in some sort of hard science like biology or chemistry or engineering. It's a requirement in order to take the patent bar. Also, sports and entertainment law isn't really a thing, so you will need to develop better goals than that.

Just to reiterate what other posters have said, everyone has significant personal circumstances that make life difficult and make re-taking a very tough decision. But I can promise you, your future self will thank you for persevering and you will be a better person for it.

I hear you, but how is saying "I'm interested in Immigration Law, Real Estate Law, International Business Law, Securities, etc." any more of a developed career goal?

Immigration law is significantly more in demand and also has significantly less competition because it pays almost nothing. If you were really committed to that (which please don't suddenly say you are, it has to be a life passion) that would be an achievable goal. Real estate is more of a smaller practice group at biglaw firms, so the next point applies. International business (not the sexy kind) and securities are both relatively attainable from good schools and are achieved by like 50% of associates at big law firms. But, none of the schools you've mentioned provide a realistic shot at big law, so, if that was your goal, you wouldn't be doing much to achieve it.

The schools you're considering should be in line with your goals. The only outcomes those schools provide are plausibly family law (think divorces and child support stuff) or personal injury, ambulance chaser types. If you don't want those, there really isn't any reason to go to those schools.

[zimryan]

Yeah, it is important that you know you cannot do IP law without a degree in some sort of hard science like biology or chemistry or engineering. It's a requirement in order to take the patent bar. Also, sports and entertainment law isn't really a thing, so you will need to develop better goals than that.

Just to reiterate what other posters have said, everyone has significant personal circumstances that make life difficult and make re-taking a very tough decision. But I can promise you, your future self will thank you for persevering and you will be a better person for it.

I hear you, but how is saying "I'm interested in Immigration Law, Real Estate Law, International Business Law, Securities, etc." any more of a developed career goal?

Immigration law is significantly more in demand and also has significantly less competition because it pays almost nothing. If you were really committed to that (which please don't suddenly say you are, it has to be a life passion) that would be an achievable goal. Real estate is more of a smaller practice group at biglaw firms, so the next point applies. International business (not the sexy kind) and securities are both relatively attainable from good schools and are achieved by like 50% of associates at big law firms. But, none of the schools you've mentioned provide a realistic shot at big law, so, if that was your goal, you wouldn't be doing much to achieve it.

The schools you're considering should be in line with your goals. The only outcomes those schools provide are plausibly family law (think divorces and child support stuff) or personal injury, ambulance chaser types. If you don't want those, there really isn't any reason to go to those schools.

BigLaw was never my goal, thought I mentioned that already

[Effingham]

Yeah, it is important that you know you cannot do IP law without a degree in some sort of hard science like biology or chemistry or engineering. It's a requirement in order to take the patent bar. Also, sports and entertainment law isn't really a thing, so you will need to develop better goals than that.

Just to reiterate what other posters have said, everyone has significant personal circumstances that make life difficult and make re-taking a very tough decision. But I can promise you, your future self will thank you for persevering and you will be a better person for it.

I hear you, but how is saying "I'm interested in Immigration Law, Real Estate Law, International Business Law, Securities, etc." any more of a developed career goal?

Immigration law is significantly more in demand and also has significantly less competition because it pays almost nothing. If you were really committed to that (which please don't suddenly say you are, it has to be a life passion) that would be an achievable goal. Real estate is more of a smaller practice group at biglaw firms, so the next point applies. International business (not the sexy kind) and securities are both relatively attainable from good schools and are achieved by like 50% of associates at big law firms. But, none of the schools you've mentioned provide a realistic shot at big law, so, if that was your goal, you wouldn't be doing much to achieve it.

The schools you're considering should be in line with your goals. The only outcomes those schools provide are plausibly family law (think divorces and child support stuff) or personal injury, ambulance chaser types. If you don't want those, there really isn't any reason to go to those schools.

BigLaw was never my goal, thought I mentioned that already

Honestly, I don't know what your goals are. You said sports and entertainment and IP? Neither of those are going to happen. And both of those would almost definitely be biglaw anyway so that statement above is really strange. What are your other goals?

[mornincounselor]

A. This belongs in the Choosing A Law School forum.

B. Dude, imagine you're sitting on a couch with your future children. It's from the local thrift store. It smells faintly of the previous owner's two-pack/day cigarette habit. Your 5 year old is watching the Maury Show with you on an old barely-color TV you picked up for a couple bucks at a yard sale down the street. It's 3 PM. Five minutes ago, your kid asked you for a snack and you said no. He's obviously hungry but you push that to the back of your mind while you focus on the poor sucker who's about to find out if his ex-gf's baby is his.

"Daddy, are we poor?" It's a tough question for anyone to hear from their kids. Your first instinct is to deny it but as you see Maury's guest leap around on stage when he finds out he is "NOT THE FATHER!!". This gives you momentary sense of joy and the cojones to answer your kid honestly.

"Yes buddy, we're poor."

"Why are we poor Daddy?"

"Because...because I didn't want to take the LSAT again little man."

"What's LSAT?"

"It's a test you take to get into law school. People give you a lot of money and let you go to the best school in the world if you do well on it."

"Oh." He sits for a minute pondering this information. "So, they didn't give you money?"

"No buddy, they didn't...or hardly enough anyway"

"Is that why you don't have a job right now?"

"No, I decided to go to a terrible law school anyway because I was too lazy to take the test again."

"And that made us poor?'

"Well little man, it made me unemployed...and...unemployable. But, the good news is I get to be with you right now as opposed to at work, ok?"

"Ok Daddy!"

"Good deal. I sure love you. Promise me you won't make Daddy's mistakes."

"Promise Daddy."

"Good boy. Now, go wash up, we'll eat dinner a little early tonight. I got hot dogs and kraft mac n' cheese. What would you prefer?"

Retake the fucking LSAT dude.

This.

C'mon man. I have a much worse GPA than you, all it takes it spending some time and doing well on this one silly little test. You said you took it twice already GREAT . . now go take it one more time.

$110k in tuition plus cost of living is a huge amount of money, money you will not be able to pay back easily from one of the schools listed, don't waste your parents money because you are too lazy to put the work into the LSAT.

[Mullens]

Yeah, it is important that you know you cannot do IP law without a degree in some sort of hard science like biology or chemistry or engineering. It's a requirement in order to take the patent bar. Also, sports and entertainment law isn't really a thing, so you will need to develop better goals than that.

Just to reiterate what other posters have said, everyone has significant personal circumstances that make life difficult and make re-taking a very tough decision. But I can promise you, your future self will thank you for persevering and you will be a better person for it.

I hear you, but how is saying "I'm interested in Immigration Law, Real Estate Law, International Business Law, Securities, etc." any more of a developed career goal?

Immigration law is significantly more in demand and also has significantly less competition because it pays almost nothing. If you were really committed to that (which please don't suddenly say you are, it has to be a life passion) that would be an achievable goal. Real estate is more of a smaller practice group at biglaw firms, so the next point applies. International business (not the sexy kind) and securities are both relatively attainable from good schools and are achieved by like 50% of associates at big law firms. But, none of the schools you've mentioned provide a realistic shot at big law, so, if that was your goal, you wouldn't be doing much to achieve it.

The schools you're considering should be in line with your goals. The only outcomes those schools provide are plausibly family law (think divorces and child support stuff) or personal injury, ambulance chaser types. If you don't want those, there really isn't any reason to go to those schools.

BigLaw was never my goal, thought I mentioned that already

Yeah but everything you want to do is mostly practiced, to the extent it exists at all, at biglaw firms and similarly competitive boutiques like my post above says.

[eagle2a]

Bro, no one here is being a dick, nothing will happen to any of us if you go to a shit school and end up unemployed. These people are offering you genuine advise. I go to a decent T1 with a decent scholly and really wish I had studied harder for the LSAT and gone to a better school. You employment opportunities exponentially increase if you're going to a top school. There's really good advise in the LSAT forums, check it out, figure out what went wrong the first two times, study and get a better score and go to a good school

[A. Nony Mouse]

Everyone is completely right about your school options. I think the hypothetical "bad daddy scenario" is a little much, though.

[zimryan]

A. This belongs in the Choosing A Law School forum.

B. Dude, imagine you're sitting on a couch with your future children. It's from the local thrift store. It smells faintly of the previous owner's two-pack/day cigarette habit. Your 5 year old is watching the Maury Show with you on an old barely-color TV you picked up for a couple bucks at a yard sale down the street. It's 3 PM. Five minutes ago, your kid asked you for a snack and you said no. He's obviously hungry but you push that to the back of your mind while you focus on the poor sucker who's about to find out if his ex-gf's baby is his.

"Daddy, are we poor?" It's a tough question for anyone to hear from their kids. Your first instinct is to deny it but as you see Maury's guest leap around on stage when he finds out he is "NOT THE FATHER!!". This gives you momentary sense of joy and the cojones to answer your kid honestly.

"Yes buddy, we're poor."

"Why are we poor Daddy?"

"Because...because I didn't want to take the LSAT again little man."

"What's LSAT?"

"It's a test you take to get into law school. People give you a lot of money and let you go to the best school in the world if you do well on it."

"Oh." He sits for a minute pondering this information. "So, they didn't give you money?"

"No buddy, they didn't...or hardly enough anyway"

"Is that why you don't have a job right now?"

"No, I decided to go to a terrible law school anyway because I was too lazy to take the test again."

"And that made us poor?'

"Well little man, it made me unemployed...and...unemployable. But, the good news is I get to be with you right now as opposed to at work, ok?"

"Ok Daddy!"

"Good deal. I sure love you. Promise me you won't make Daddy's mistakes."

"Promise Daddy."

"Good boy. Now, go wash up, we'll eat dinner a little early tonight. I got hot dogs and kraft mac n' cheese. What would you prefer?"

Retake the fucking LSAT dude.

This.

C'mon man. I have a much worse GPA than you, all it takes it spending some time and doing well on this one silly little test. You said you took it twice already GREAT . . now go take it one more time.

$110k in tuition plus cost of living is a huge amount of money, money you will not be able to pay back easily from one of the schools listed, don't waste your parents money because you are too lazy to put the work into the LSAT.

Where are you getting 110k in tuition from? It'd be 24k/yr (72/3yrs) at Miami plus living, and 15k/yr (45/3yrs) at St. Johns with no living expenses.

[zimryan]

Everyone is completely right about your school options. I think the hypothetical "bad daddy scenario" is a little much, though.

Thanks, what you said is perfectly acceptable criticism to me. Idk why he had to conjure up some useless story..

[zimryan]

Bro, no one here is being a dick, nothing will happen to any of us if you go to a shit school and end up unemployed. These people are offering you genuine advise. I go to a decent T1 with a decent scholly and really wish I had studied harder for the LSAT and gone to a better school. You employment opportunities exponentially increase if you're going to a top school. There's really good advise in the LSAT forums, check it out, figure out what went wrong the first two times, study and get a better score and go to a good school

When did I say anyone is giving bad advice? That one dude made some snide comments and I didn't appreciate that, but otherwise I've been very receptive to the genuine advice I've gotten so far. I'm aware of the opportunities the higher tier schools afford. Contrary to what that dude thinks I've done massive amounts of research and I know where I stand. I'm not justifying my LSAT performance (or apparently lack thereof) but if prior experience shows anything..my PT's yielded virtually the same result as both my actual tries.

I'm sorry but by saying "nothing will happen to any of us if you go to a shit school and end up unemployed" is kind of being a dick. You're saying do whatever you want with your shit school offers and have fun being unemployed in 3 years because none of us T1'ers will be affected... I don't want to get into some pissing contest with you b/c I know you have good intentions and that's not what you really meant by that, but I don't see it as going to a shit school...(Shit offers maybe lol)...and correct me if I'm wrong, but people do attend these schools and those people DO get jobs

[kcdc1]

Everyone is completely right about your school options. I think the hypothetical "bad daddy scenario" is a little much, though.

This.

I'm guessing you feel forced to enroll this year because the alternative is a "wasted year" with shitty employment prospects. The problem is that if you enroll in any of these schools, you will be in the same position three years from now, only with many thousands of dollars in non-dischargeable debt hanging over you, not to mention the knowledge that you wasted not one year but three. Enrolling now would be much worse than sitting on the sidelines and taking some time to figure out your next move. There will be better options.

[PeanutsNJam]

Well, what you're doing is, in fact, objectively wrong, and you seem very un/misinformed about law school and the legal profession, so you actually do need lectures.

ETA: of course, you want to do sports law.

So your advice is don't go to law school unless you're int T14. Thanks bud!

There are like dozens of schools between T14 and your options, all of which you could be going to for free if you retook the LSAT. Sports and Entertainment Law is so highly competitive that even above median T14 grads can't get it. Florida legal market in particular is difficult to break into because there are so few jobs. You think none of the 960 Harvard/Yale/Stanford grads want one of the like 50 available Sports and entertainment law jobs in Miami?

People do get jobs. People also become astronauts and governors and billionaires. Doesn't mean it's likely or expected. The expected outcome is 40-60k/year from those schools even if you could get a job, and there's like a 20-30% chance you won't get a job at all.

[seagan823]

Look man, to your credit, TLS is full of insecure prestige-obsessed people who love to talk about how bad the "inferior" schools are. There is also a strong strain of risk aversion in this forum that can be as extreme as, "If you don't get a full ride to a T6, don't go." I don't think anyone who posted so far has been like that, but I can understand how annoying that sentiment is if you think you want to go to law school and it just seems like people are scared jerks.

However, that doesn't mean that most advice on this forum is spot on. There are three things you need to consider about your current options:

1. The schools you are talking about going to just simply don't give you a great shot at being a lawyer. Look:

St. Johns - http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... yers/2015/

30% not working as full time lawyers

New York Law School - http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... yers/2015/

52.4% not working as full time lawyers

Miami -

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/miami/jobs/2015/

37% not working as full time lawyers. As someone with no ties to Miami, this is increasingly likely for you.

So from these schools, there is an ok shot you won't get a gig as a lawyer. Lots of people really struggle to find employment, at $45,000 in debt is still nothing to sneeze at when you can't find a job. You should read this thread of 3Ls who haven't landed jobs.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p?t=192753

It can get pretty damn dark.

2. If you do get a job as a lawyer from one of these schools, will it be one you want?

I wish you had the liberty like undergrad to see what kind of law you want to practice when you get to school, but you don't. Like many have pointed out, sports/entertainment jobs are really hard to get from any school. You usually have to have great grades from a great school, do a lot of legwork networking, and have some luck to get those gigs. IP law usually needs hard science background.

The whole legal market is flooded with new lawyers gunning for jobs that pay very little and aren't very fun. There are also tons of aspiring attorneys from top schools dead set on working as PDs/DAs/legal aid attorneys because they are cause-driven, and will fight hard for jobs that pay 50k.

If you knew you wanted to work at a small firm/PD office/DA office/legal aid, had maxed out your LSAT takes, and were willing to fight to the death for one of those jobs, then I would say you should bet on yourself and do it, fully knowing the risk. That's what this forum forgets. Successful people are people who bet on themselves. Sometimes people fail, but any successful person bet on themself at one point or another. However, that is different from just falling backwards into law school with no plan and an LSAT retake still on the table. That is what you are doing.

Still think you should go for it? Check out areyouinsane's posts in the thread below on document review.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=157855

A lot of attorneys (even from very good schools) who can't find full time work end up doing this and hating it. Its a not unlikely career path from those schools. Its also not unlikely you wouldn't be able to get these jobs either.

3. If you go to school, get top grades, and land a biglaw gig, there is a pretty great chance you will hate it

So say you do land a biglaw gig, maybe even in IP. Do you know what that kind of gig entails? The thread below if from a corporate associate from Harvard at one of the country's top firm. This dude did well at HLS, landed this job, and managed to pull off 8 years in a world where people burn out in 2-3. He has probably made north of two million dollars in those eight years. And he hates it and can't seem to find a way out.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=261392

Now I'm not saying his work is representative of all biglaw, but its not unrepresentative. Many, many lawyers have posted in this forum that feel the way he does.


Going to law school is actually not a great plan for most people. Most schools have bad employment outlooks, cost a fortune, and in the best case scenario help you land a well paying job with only ok exit options that most people hate. Or they help you land a PI gig that pays very little and is unsustainable without a die hard dedication to the work.

I say this as a 0L who has sat down with 20+ lawyers to talk about their careers. I have read every description I could find on what it is like to be a lawyer. I go to court all the time in my current job. I studied my ass off and took LSAT three times, secured my top choice school with a full scholarship, and will be attending next year...

AND I AM STILL TERRIFIED OF THE DECISION I AM MAKING. I read this forum everyday and think about what I am getting into. Please, don't go to the schools you put up here without a clear idea of what you want to do as a lawyer. As least retake the LSAT. There is no condition I can think of that would make going to one of those law schools worth it.

[LandMermaid]

I hope you've done your research already, but take a look:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/stjohns/miami/

There are definitely worse options out there. It would DEFINITELY be in your interest to take the next year off. You're probably tired of the retake suggestion, but just take a look at mylsn.info and see how much better your options get with just a few more LSAT points. This website has a ton of study resources that should be able to help. Even if you don't wind up retaking, you could benefit from some time off to help narrow your interests a bit.

If you're set on these options, at least try to negotiate the scholarships. Class rank requirements are generally negotiable as well.

Maybe I should've been more specific about what brought me here.

I applied mostly in NY except Miami b/c the initial plan was to stay in NY. I had full scholarships from Hofstra and NYL, but the Hoftra one required to maintain top 40%, so that's out. I had 10k/yr from Cardozo and tried negotiating but they wouldn't budge, meaning COA would be 200k over 3 years - too much, so that's out.

This is the best I have, and my parents/my situation dictates that I plan on starting law school this year. I appreciate the blunt honesty that people seem to be more than happy to provide and I totally understand the their positions..but I don't need the lectures telling me what I'm doing is wrong.

A) You are an adult. If your parents are forcing you to go this year at risk of losing their financial support, then tell them thanks but no thanks, do better on the LSAT, and get a high enough scholarship where you don't need their money and have way better chances at getting a job you like, or a job at all. Your freedom is worth more than whatever they are offering you, and if you are attending graduate school NO ONE, much less your parents, should be "dictating" anything you do. You have choices, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.
B) I cannot imagine any personal circumstances in which working, at the very least, at a random job for a year and improving on the LSAT is completely unreasonable, especially if it improves your entire life. If there are circumstances where being highly in debt for a low paying, or no paying job is worth it, I am very curious as to what those are. I had a friend who lived in his childhood room for a year and bagged groceries at publix, retook the LSAT, reapplied and ended up at a really strong regional school with a full ride instead of the T2 he was considering. He said it was the best decision of his life, even "wasting" a year doing nothing particularly productive.

[Nekrowizard]

OP: don't listen to the haters on here. Do whatever you feel like. Follow your dreams. Given the inevitable and terrifying heat death of the universe, what's a $100K you spent on law school matter anywhere?

[Dcc617]

I'm just weighing in because it seems like lately there have been several threads where the OP lays out really unappealing options and then gets super indignant when people say that their options are bad.

A couple years ago I thought I had to go to law school right away with shit options. But then I didn't. I retook and improved my options a lot.

OP, if you don't want advice, don't ask for it. But you are not locked in to taking these options as they currently are.

[seagan823]

OP: don't listen to the haters on here. Do whatever you feel like. Follow your dreams. Given the inevitable and terrifying heat death of the universe, what's a $100K you spent on law school matter anywhere?

Dude, my mistake, yours is TCR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_qvy82U4RE

Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everbody's gonna die.

[gsy987]

I'm just weighing in because it seems like lately there have been several threads where the OP lays out really unappealing options and then gets super indignant when people say that their options are bad.

A couple years ago I thought I had to go to law school right away with shit options. But then I didn't. I retook and improved my options a lot.

OP, if you don't want advice, don't ask for it. But you are not locked in to taking these options as they currently are.

To be fair to OP, I do think that people kind of piled on just a bit here (a 1000 word fantasy daddy scenario seems a bit much for me!)

But seriously... most of the people here are right! I actually was in a very similar position to you at this point last year, getting a 158 on my second try (along with a 3.3 GPA) and I was thinking that I was in a pretty rough position. However, I took the whole summer studying, bumped up my LSAT score 11 points, and now I'm in a WAY better position. It can totally be done!

[Rigo]

If you're going to be stubborn, I'd go St. John's since the COA is half that of Miami.

You really should take a year off though just to gain some perspective before rushing into a shitty situation that will likely stunt you for the rest of your life.