Cornell (Half) vs. StJohn's (Full) Forum

[heythatslife]

I know some people from Cardozo/SJU who got BigLaw jobs though. Granted they may have been at the top of their class, but maybe that extra hard work is worth it if I'll be saving 140k in the long term?

All those people who landed in crappy positions from Cardozo/SJU, why hadn't they thought of making top 10% so they could get biglaw too? Oh, those silly people! It's so blindingly simple and obvious!

Sarcasm aside, it's a terrible idea to go into law school thinking you could get top x%. Ex ante, you have a 10% chance of landing top 10%, just like everyone else, and simply "studying hard" doesn't guarantee you'll do well in law school.

[pppp]

Cornell with half, assuming half is 90k still leaves a COA of ~160k. After taking increasing tuition and interest into account tuition alone will be over 100k and then you probably need at least 15k a year for COL.

With that said 160k for a school that is a known biglaw feeder when you want to do PI is not the greatest move in the world. Did you not apply to NYU, you realize that's one of the best PI schools in the country in your own backyard? I'm stunned I'm the first one to suggest this on this thread but you should consider retaking the LSAT, getting a 170 and going to NYU with free COL.


Cornell like all the top schools has LRAP, so you can do public interest work without worrying about loans

[silverdoe91]

I know some people from Cardozo/SJU who got BigLaw jobs though. Granted they may have been at the top of their class, but maybe that extra hard work is worth it if I'll be saving 140k in the long term?

All those people who landed in crappy positions from Cardozo/SJU, why hadn't they thought of making top 10% so they could get biglaw too? Oh, those silly people! It's so blindingly simple and obvious!

Sarcasm aside, it's a terrible idea to go into law school thinking you could get top x%. Ex ante, you have a 10% chance of landing top 10%, just like everyone else, and simply "studying hard" doesn't guarantee you'll do well in law school.

Well, I am at an advantage since my LSAT score is way higher than their average and so is my GPA so maybe I'm smarter and more studious than most of their students?

That's another thing I worry about with schools like Cornell. It might harder for me to stand out among so many bright individuals. What if despite my hard work at Cornell, I'll fall to the bottom 10% of the class? Will that close doors for me in terms of employment or even academic pursuits while in law school?

[silverdoe91]

Cornell with half, assuming half is 90k still leaves a COA of ~160k. After taking increasing tuition and interest into account tuition alone will be over 100k and then you probably need at least 15k a year for COL.

With that said 160k for a school that is a known biglaw feeder when you want to do PI is not the greatest move in the world. Did you not apply to NYU, you realize that's one of the best PI schools in the country in your own backyard? I'm stunned I'm the first one to suggest this on this thread but you should consider retaking the LSAT, getting a 170 and going to NYU with free COL.


Cornell like all the top schools has LRAP, so you can do public interest work without worrying about loans

NYU was my first choice, but unfortunately, I did not get in. I could retake the LSAT, but there's no guarantee I'll definitely get a higher score, much less a 170. Plus, am I even guaranteed a scholarship with that score, since that's their median? I feel like I'd need to get at least 172 or higher to get any scholarship money from them.

How reliable is Cornell's LRAP program? It seems to have a lot of conditions, and I don't know if I'll manage to fulfill all of them in order to to be eligible for it.

[silverdoe91]

Like everyone else has said, and 100% of the votes as of now point to:

If you want a chance at meaningful employment take Cornell.

Anecdote: I know a girl who attended St. Johns graduated in the top-half of her class. Took the bar. She got her real estate license within a year after because despite being smart, good looking, and growing up and having ties in Brooklyn, she could not find a job as a lawyer at all. Granted she only tried to really look for the better part of a year..but damn!

If you don't want to retake, Cornell seems like the only reasonable option. They place really well in NYC Big Law and I'm pretty sure you could get a gig in PI. Something else to consider is the far reaching name of Cornell which allows you to get jobs other places if you so choose. You never really know for sure where you'll want to practice and what until you've actually gone to law school. Just some stuff to consider.

Either way, congrats on your chance to go to a good law school.

Thanks! I love your username and profile pic btw!

Thanks for the anecdote. It's definitely a reality check. I don't want to spend the 140k, but if I have no other choice, I guess I should. Do you think Fordham with a full ride with be a worthy alternative? Idk how well they fare with public interest jobs though. I'll have to do some more research....I wish job placement statistics weren't so vague!

[Lavitz]

How is Cornell's PILIPP program? I don't want to be stuck in PI for 10 years or have the same salary just to be eligible for the program. Some law school repayment programs require you to be employed at a very specific set of organizations (not all qualify) for 10 years at a certain salary.

You couldn't just google this? http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/admiss ... lan-II.cfm You wouldn't be stuck.

[wons]

Dude (or dudette), none of the stuff you're considering really matters except on the very margins. No one care about "public interest reputation". All people care about is how prestigious your school is and how good your grades are, and school prestige counts for more than grades. This applies for pretty much all jobs except for rare exceptions like PD that prove the rule.

You are nuts and self-destructive if you choose St. Johns. It is such a bad law school that it frankly is worse for your resume than going to no law school at all.

[dabigchina]

never seen someone resist half scholarship to a T14 so hard in favor of TTT's.

[silverdoe91]

How is Cornell's PILIPP program? I don't want to be stuck in PI for 10 years or have the same salary just to be eligible for the program. Some law school repayment programs require you to be employed at a very specific set of organizations (not all qualify) for 10 years at a certain salary.

You couldn't just google this? http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/admiss ... lan-II.cfm You wouldn't be stuck.

I've looked at that page, several times. It's very vague and does not answer many of the questions that I have. I've written an email to the public service career service dean at Cornell, but have yet to hear from her. Until then, I'd like to know what people's experiences have been with Cornell's LRAP program because what the dean may tell me may miss out some important details that perhaps other people have experienced.

[somethingElse]

How is Cornell's PILIPP program? I don't want to be stuck in PI for 10 years or have the same salary just to be eligible for the program. Some law school repayment programs require you to be employed at a very specific set of organizations (not all qualify) for 10 years at a certain salary.

You couldn't just google this? http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/admiss ... lan-II.cfm You wouldn't be stuck.

I've looked at that page, several times. It's very vague and does not answer many of the questions that I have. I've written an email to the public service career service dean at Cornell, but have yet to hear from her. Until then, I'd like to know what people's experiences have been with Cornell's LRAP program because what the dean may tell me may miss out some important details that perhaps other people have experienced.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 5&t=262492

Scoop that bro.

[Danny Mothers]

What? With a 3.76 Op should clearly retake for a full ride to T14s. Since when does TLS accept the premise so readily?

[deepseapartners]

How is Cornell's PILIPP program? I don't want to be stuck in PI for 10 years or have the same salary just to be eligible for the program. Some law school repayment programs require you to be employed at a very specific set of organizations (not all qualify) for 10 years at a certain salary.

You couldn't just google this? http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/admiss ... lan-II.cfm You wouldn't be stuck.

I've looked at that page, several times. It's very vague and does not answer many of the questions that I have. I've written an email to the public service career service dean at Cornell, but have yet to hear from her. Until then, I'd like to know what people's experiences have been with Cornell's LRAP program because what the dean may tell me may miss out some important details that perhaps other people have experienced.

You're not going to get the answer you are looking for here. I doubt that you will even get the answer you are looking for when the Dean gets back to you. Every single person who has replied or voted in your poll says, unhesitatingly, that you should attend Cornell. We're not going to convince you, because you clearly have some hangup that none of us have, or can even guess at.

[Lavitz]

I've looked at that page, several times. It's very vague and does not answer many of the questions that I have. I've written an email to the public service career service dean at Cornell, but have yet to hear from her. Until then, I'd like to know what people's experiences have been with Cornell's LRAP program because what the dean may tell me may miss out some important details that perhaps other people have experienced.

I mean, between that and the FAQ page, it answered the questions you posted. You would not be stuck in PI for 10 years; you can exit and enter the program anytime. If your salary is less than 80K for that year, you're eligible for that year. And it described the characteristics of qualifying jobs (any government entity, any nonprofit, must be legal job). And considering it was revamped like 1 year ago, I doubt you're going to find anyone who has experienced the new LRAP.

[Dcc617]

What? With a 3.76 Op should clearly retake for a full ride to T14s. Since when does TLS accept the premise so readily?

I mean, sure, but full rides are hard to get. Most people on here would consider half-ride to a T14 to be basically a best case scenario.

OP could retake and reapply and try for big money at NYU, but how much more would they need to improve their LSAT for that outcome? Even then, with that GPA they're probably not getting crazy money.

I recommended Cornell because it's a pretty good option. Obviously if OP thinks that they left points on the board then they should retake. That is not the impression I got.

All that being said OP, please revise your poll to include a "follow your heart" option.

[silverdoe91]

How is Cornell's PILIPP program? I don't want to be stuck in PI for 10 years or have the same salary just to be eligible for the program. Some law school repayment programs require you to be employed at a very specific set of organizations (not all qualify) for 10 years at a certain salary.

You couldn't just google this? http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/admiss ... lan-II.cfm You wouldn't be stuck.

I've looked at that page, several times. It's very vague and does not answer many of the questions that I have. I've written an email to the public service career service dean at Cornell, but have yet to hear from her. Until then, I'd like to know what people's experiences have been with Cornell's LRAP program because what the dean may tell me may miss out some important details that perhaps other people have experienced.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 5&t=262492

Scoop that bro.

Thanks!

[silverdoe91]

One person voted for Northeastern! Whoever did, could you please tell me why?

[somethingElse]

No prob. I have to say, that as a 0L myself (so salt grains, etc) I understand where the OP is coming from as far as being hesitant with Cornell and PI. IIRC only like ~12 people went into PI from this year's employment stats. Plus I would think being in Ithaca would limit your opportunities to network/hustle for a legit PI job. Of course it is still the best option relative to the others OP listed, but perhaps a retake isn't so crazy assuming OP really is dead set on PI, no?

[jnwa]

What? With a 3.76 Op should clearly retake for a full ride to T14s. Since when does TLS accept the premise so readily?

Retake for HYS
Retake for T14 full rides
Retake ED Northwestern

One person voted for Northeastern! Whoever did, could you please tell me why?

They were probably joking.

[silverdoe91]

No prob. I have to say, that as a 0L myself (so salt grains, etc) I understand where the OP is coming from as far as being hesitant with Cornell and PI. IIRC only like ~12 people went into PI from this year's employment stats. Plus I would think being in Ithaca would limit your opportunities to network/hustle for a legit PI job. Of course it is still the best option relative to the others OP listed, but perhaps a retake isn't so crazy assuming OP really is dead set on PI, no?

Yes, absolutely! That's exactly what I've been thinking and hence why I've been so hesitant. I don't mind retaking, but that would mean I'd have to turn down Cornell's offer. Also, would I have to come up with entirely new letters of rec and personal statement in order to reapply?

[cron1834]

43 to 1... I've never seen a worse poll.

The answer is retake for bigger scholarship at the T14. That way you get the best of every world - PI opportunities, biglaw opportunities, and low debt. None of your current options guarantees all of those things, SO....

Also, St. John's sucks. You implied that somehow you're smarter than other students that go there. That is possibly offensive, but definitely wrong if you'd go to a shithole like that with a 167.

[Danny Mothers]

No prob. I have to say, that as a 0L myself (so salt grains, etc) I understand where the OP is coming from as far as being hesitant with Cornell and PI. IIRC only like ~12 people went into PI from this year's employment stats. Plus I would think being in Ithaca would limit your opportunities to network/hustle for a legit PI job. Of course it is still the best option relative to the others OP listed, but perhaps a retake isn't so crazy assuming OP really is dead set on PI, no?

Yes, absolutely! That's exactly what I've been thinking and hence why I've been so hesitant. I don't mind retaking, but that would mean I'd have to turn down Cornell's offer. Also, would I have to come up with entirely new letters of rec and personal statement in order to reapply?

No. The only thing you should change is your LSAT score.

[dabigchina]

One person voted for Northeastern! Whoever did, could you please tell me why?

Guessing they thought they were voting for Northwestern.

[Lavitz]

No prob. I have to say, that as a 0L myself (so salt grains, etc) I understand where the OP is coming from as far as being hesitant with Cornell and PI. IIRC only like ~12 people went into PI from this year's employment stats. Plus I would think being in Ithaca would limit your opportunities to network/hustle for a legit PI job. Of course it is still the best option relative to the others OP listed, but perhaps a retake isn't so crazy assuming OP really is dead set on PI, no?

It was 12%, not 12 people. On the other hand, most of that was government (DA and PD), not nonprofits like OP seems to be interested in.

And sure, it's not as convenient as being in NYC already, but it's really not difficult to compensate for this. We participate in the same PI career fair as every other New York school in February. Take a bus to and from to NYC for this or any other interview. Work PI in NYC 1L and 2L summer. To the extent you want to "network/hustle" outside of the organization you're working for, you can do it over these summers. Can also extern for a nonprofit/government entity in NYC for one semester, which would also cut down on your costs if you live at home that semester and just sublet an apartment in Ithaca for the other semester that year.

[silverdoe91]

No prob. I have to say, that as a 0L myself (so salt grains, etc) I understand where the OP is coming from as far as being hesitant with Cornell and PI. IIRC only like ~12 people went into PI from this year's employment stats. Plus I would think being in Ithaca would limit your opportunities to network/hustle for a legit PI job. Of course it is still the best option relative to the others OP listed, but perhaps a retake isn't so crazy assuming OP really is dead set on PI, no?

It was 12%, not 12 people. On the other hand, most of that was government (DA and PD), not nonprofits like OP seems to be interested in.

And sure, it's not as convenient as being in NYC already, but it's really not difficult to compensate for this. We participate in the same PI career fair as every other New York school in February. Take a bus to and from to NYC for this or any other interview. Work PI in NYC 1L and 2L summer. To the extent you want to "network/hustle" outside of the organization you're working for, you can do it over these summers. Can also extern for a nonprofit/government entity in NYC for one semester, which would also cut down on your costs if you live at home that semester and just sublet an apartment in Ithaca for the other semester that year.

Thanks for the advice! I don't know if I want to work at the same place both summers, because I do want to branch out and try other types of law as well, at least while I'm in law school. Non-profit work is just the type of legal work that I've enjoyed doing the most so far, with the experience I've had. Previously, I've also worked in a Personal Injury law firm and a Corporate Law firm (in the marketing department, but had access to attorneys who I spoke to and they all sounded relatively miserable, aside from their salaries.)

Btw, I noticed you referencing Cornell as "we"...are you currently enrolled in Cornell Law School or an alumni/faculty member?

[Rigo]

Cornell 100%.