Harvard Law vs. Stanford Law Forum

[Budfox55]

Bruh, California...california man. Maybe its because I have a few friends who went to harvard or because I was waitlisted there for undergrad, but I don't get the "But its Harvard" pedestal. Stanford has a reputation for being more chill and in general a very happy place. You emphasized in your post that you're ambitious and laid back. Your goal is to end up in California. I feel like this an easy choice.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The fact that you're not going to Yale is proof you're defective enough for Harvard

What's the deal with people joking about HLS like this on TLS?

TLS has had a run of posters from Harvard who are notoriously...special, in a uniquely "I go to school outside Boston" kind of way.

[rpupkin]

OP,

Give your rather modest goals (law firm in LA), I'd seriously consider a full ride from CLS/Chicago/Berkeley if it's an option. You don't need HLS or SLS to get big law in LA, and you'll enjoy your post-grad life a lot more with an extra $200K in your pocket.

[undecided2019]

The fact that you're not going to Yale is proof you're defective enough for Harvard

People like you are actually the reason why I decided not to go to Yale haha. YLS is great, but I just didn't see myself enjoying it there. I was asked, "You're not seriously considering Harvard Law School?" too many times. Moreover, since I don't want to clerk or work in academia, I wasn't convinced that its qualitatively much better than the other two schools. Clerking/Academia seems to be YLS' edge; otherwise, .

You can keep telling yourself that, but YLS is better from an employment/law perspective in basically every way. Even if you just want to work at a firm, YLS makes it easier.

They are all great schools, so obviously you aren't ruining your life going to HLS over YLS or SLS. The reasons people turn down YLS tend to be more substantive though, like more $$$ at other schools or a joint business program or Yale UG wanting to broaden the network or something.

Idk man, as soon as I visited for ASW I crossed it off my list. I ran into too many people that were just socially awkward or really pretentious. And given that there's only 200 people at the school, I must've met many of them at ASW. Stanford and Harvard had a lot more people I could see myself being friends with. Conversations were simply easier and less exhausting. I figure when it comes to HYS, I should go where I fit best.

[undecided2019]

Bruh, California...california man. Maybe its because I have a few friends who went to harvard or because I was waitlisted there for undergrad, but I don't get the "But its Harvard" pedestal. Stanford has a reputation for being more chill and in general a very happy place. You emphasized in your post that you're ambitious and laid back. Your goal is to end up in California. I feel like this an easy choice.

This is good advice. I think you may be right. The thought of turning down both Y and H makes me uneasy though

[undecided2019]

OP how are you financing school? What's the money situation look like at these three and at other t14 for you?

Since their aid awards are all need based and I don't come from money, I'll be getting around 40k from each school in grants with the rest of the estimated budget in loans. I did get a near full ride to Duke and Chicago, but It was important to me that I go to HYS.

[bearsfan23]

Stanford would like to brandish its best part to admitted students and the whole world, even that means it has to be in a really odd place not to disclose its dropped median several months after the national deadline (the only one in T-14).

Harvard is used to showing every aspect of its school to admitted students and the whole world. You will realize your real life is better than what you were imagining after starting your 1L.

Trust me, many straight P students at HLS get V10 jobs at NYC pretty easily (it needs to be emphasized that NY office is normally the strongest office of a law firm except a few tech firms) or even Cavath job. If you check Wachtell's attorney list, guess how many Stanford alumni are there? Less than the fingers of a hand. CA firms are gorging HLS students and your tie to CA will easily land you an excellent firm job there, whether prestigious litigation boutiques or tech-focused transactional work in V10.

Stanford does have a little bit higher clerkship percentage probably 28 percent versus 16 percent at HLS. But considering HLS is three times as big as SLS, you will know the huge difference in alumni network in the future.

If you really do not want to go to Yale, you should choose Harvard.

LOL

So all the un/underemployed kids in HLS's employment stats are the people with the good grades then? Would love to hear your explanation on that one, especially considering many people strike out at OCI every year from HLS

[rpupkin]

Since their aid awards are all need based and I don't come from money, I'll be getting around 40k from each school in grants with the rest of the estimated budget in loans. I did get a near full ride to Duke and Chicago, but It was important to me that I go to HYS.

FYI, the concept of "HYS" is a much bigger deal on TLS than it is in real life. To the extent that HYS actually matters—to the extent it gives you better opportunities than, say, Columbia and Chicago—it's for stuff like clerkships, academia, and PI. In other words, it helps you in areas that don't interest you at all. Your career goal—LA big law—can be achieved just as easily from Chicago as it can from Harvard or Stanford.

Also, once you're a few years into your career, no one really cares where you went to law school anymore. Your law school really helps you get that first job. And, given your goals, you just don't need HYS to get your first job. If your overall COA at Chicago will be significantly less, I think the smart choice is to go there.

But it sounds like superficial prestige is important to you. (I don't mean that pejoratively; you certainly are not the first or last law school applicant to value prestige over mundane practicalities.) I think you should go to HLS.

[t-14orbust]

Stanford would like to brandish its best part to admitted students and the whole world, even that means it has to be in a really odd place not to disclose its dropped median several months after the national deadline (the only one in T-14).

Harvard is used to showing every aspect of its school to admitted students and the whole world. You will realize your real life is better than what you were imagining after starting your 1L.

Trust me, many straight P students at HLS get V10 jobs at NYC pretty easily (it needs to be emphasized that NY office is normally the strongest office of a law firm except a few tech firms) or even Cavath job. If you check Wachtell's attorney list, guess how many Stanford alumni are there? Less than the fingers of a hand. CA firms are gorging HLS students and your tie to CA will easily land you an excellent firm job there, whether prestigious litigation boutiques or tech-focused transactional work in V10.

Stanford does have a little bit higher clerkship percentage probably 28 percent versus 16 percent at HLS. But considering HLS is three times as big as SLS, you will know the huge difference in alumni network in the future.

If you really do not want to go to Yale, you should choose Harvard.

LOL

So all the un/underemployed kids in HLS's employment stats are the people with the good grades then? Would love to hear your explanation on that one, especially considering many people strike out at OCI every year from HLS

It definitely happens. Strikeouts are people that didn't approach the job search well, like going solely for DC with lower grades vs hedging by bidding nyc as well. Other strikeouts might occur due to social awkwardness but those people are usually less likely to have poor grades. Def can get Skadden with straight Ps.

A lot of the under/unemployment isn't from people that failed to pursue a biglaw job but instead people still figuring out their public interest employment, which doesn't have the standardized hiring biglaw does.

[jbagelboy]

Since their aid awards are all need based and I don't come from money, I'll be getting around 40k from each school in grants with the rest of the estimated budget in loans. I did get a near full ride to Duke and Chicago, but It was important to me that I go to HYS.

FYI, the concept of "HYS" is a much bigger deal on TLS than it is in real life. To the extent that HYS actually matters—to the extent it gives you better opportunities than, say, Columbia and Chicago—it's for stuff like clerkships, academia, and PI. In other words, it helps you in areas that don't interest you at all. Your career goal—LA big law—can be achieved just as easily from Chicago as it can from Harvard or Stanford.

Also, once you're a few years into your career, no one really cares where you went to law school anymore. Your law school really helps you get that first job. And, given your goals, you just don't need HYS to get your first job. If your overall COA at Chicago will be significantly less, I think the smart choice is to go there.

But it sounds like superficial prestige is important to you. (I don't mean that pejoratively; you certainly are not the first or last law school applicant to value prestige over mundane practicalities.) I think you should go to HLS.

^ 180 post. Completely. US news does not correspond well to real life

[Dr. Nefario]

OP how are you financing school? What's the money situation look like at these three and at other t14 for you?

Since their aid awards are all need based and I don't come from money, I'll be getting around 40k from each school in grants with the rest of the estimated budget in loans. I did get a near full ride to Duke and Chicago, but It was important to me that I go to HYS.

I can understand the glimmer. I would give up a full at T14 for one of those three and that aid award, but would personally pick Yale since it is cheapest. It may be only 15-20k cheaper over three years, which may seem small, but at repayment every $$$ counts.

ETA: FWIW I don't think "fit" is nearly as important as you think.

[lawlorbust]

Since their aid awards are all need based and I don't come from money, I'll be getting around 40k from each school in grants with the rest of the estimated budget in loans. I did get a near full ride to Duke and Chicago, but It was important to me that I go to HYS.

FYI, the concept of "HYS" is a much bigger deal on TLS than it is in real life. To the extent that HYS actually matters—to the extent it gives you better opportunities than, say, Columbia and Chicago—it's for stuff like clerkships, academia, and PI. In other words, it helps you in areas that don't interest you at all. Your career goal—LA big law—can be achieved just as easily from Chicago as it can from Harvard or Stanford.

Also, once you're a few years into your career, no one really cares where you went to law school anymore. Your law school really helps you get that first job. And, given your goals, you just don't need HYS to get your first job. If your overall COA at Chicago will be significantly less, I think the smart choice is to go there.

But it sounds like superficial prestige is important to you. (I don't mean that pejoratively; you certainly are not the first or last law school applicant to value prestige over mundane practicalities.) I think you should go to HLS.

Eh. I think there are lots of reasons to go to H over S. But I don't know if H has any more lay prestige than S?

[lawlorbust]

Stanford would like to brandish its best part to admitted students and the whole world, even that means it has to be in a really odd place not to disclose its dropped median several months after the national deadline (the only one in T-14).

Harvard is used to showing every aspect of its school to admitted students and the whole world. You will realize your real life is better than what you were imagining after starting your 1L.

Trust me, many straight P students at HLS get V10 jobs at NYC pretty easily (it needs to be emphasized that NY office is normally the strongest office of a law firm except a few tech firms) or even Cavath job. If you check Wachtell's attorney list, guess how many Stanford alumni are there? Less than the fingers of a hand. CA firms are gorging HLS students and your tie to CA will easily land you an excellent firm job there, whether prestigious litigation boutiques or tech-focused transactional work in V10.

Stanford does have a little bit higher clerkship percentage probably 28 percent versus 16 percent at HLS. But considering HLS is three times as big as SLS, you will know the huge difference in alumni network in the future.

If you really do not want to go to Yale, you should choose Harvard.

LOL

So all the un/underemployed kids in HLS's employment stats are the people with the good grades then? Would love to hear your explanation on that one, especially considering many people strike out at OCI every year from HLS

"Many" people don't strike out at OCI from HLS every year.

[hlsperson123]

I know everyone is telling OP to go to Chicago for almost free, but given that OP is getting $40k/year from H/S I think it's a completely understandable decision to go to one of those schools. ~$60k is an excusable amount to pay for quality of life and to avoid the feeling (even if it is idiosyncratic) of having settled on a school that wasn't your first choice. Also, IMO Hyde Park is kind of boring; I'd imagine OP would not find the "vibrant, urban setting" that he's looking for.

Second, OP would have no trouble getting back to CA from HLS. There are tons of Californians here at HLS, and in my experience the only people who have any issues getting a California offer from HLS are those that have bad grades, poor interviewing skills, and no ties to CA. I'm not saying it's never happened, but I've never heard of a Californian who wanted to go back not finding a market-paying firm. And as for competitive CA firms (e.g., MTO, Keker) you'll have to get good grades regardless of where you go. Basically, I don't buy the argument that it will be easier to get an offer from a given firm from SLS besides maybe small local Bay Area firms (and OP's not interested in those).

Also, I've been looking into it recently and the cross-registration options at HLS are amazing. The HKS courses in particular seem very unique. Given that OP has multiple good options, I think choosing a school where they'll feel happier and more intellectually stimulated totally fine.

[eph]

The fact that you're not going to Yale is proof you're defective enough for Harvard

What's the deal with people joking about HLS like this on TLS?

TLS has had a run of posters from Harvard who are notoriously...special, in a uniquely "I go to school outside Boston" kind of way.

Thank goodness I have never met anyone who fills that bill. But from now on though I will be on the lookout.

[rpupkin]

I know everyone is telling OP to go to Chicago for almost free, but given that OP is getting $40k/year from H/S I think it's a completely understandable decision to go to one of those schools. ~$60k is an excusable amount to pay for quality of life and to avoid the feeling (even if it is idiosyncratic) of having settled on a school that wasn't your first choice.

The OP's aid is need based, which means it will be proportionally reduced based on summer-associate income (which OP will surely pursue and get). At the end of three years, COA difference may be closer to $100K than $60K. If OP has a Ruby at Chicago (it's not clear if he does), then the cost savings would be even greater than that.

[hlsperson123]

I know everyone is telling OP to go to Chicago for almost free, but given that OP is getting $40k/year from H/S I think it's a completely understandable decision to go to one of those schools. ~$60k is an excusable amount to pay for quality of life and to avoid the feeling (even if it is idiosyncratic) of having settled on a school that wasn't your first choice.

The OP's aid is need based, which means it will be proportionally reduced based on summer-associate income (which OP will surely pursue and get). At the end of three years, COA difference may be closer to $100K than $60K. If OP has a Ruby at Chicago (it's not clear if he does), then the cost savings would be even greater than that.

I think the OP said he has a "near full ride," which probably means no Ruby. Also, it's not clear that OP's scholarships to Chicago/Duke are 100% merit based, so they might also be reduced by a SA. So we don't really know the difference in COA, though I agree that if it was $100k that would justify Chicago.

[lawlorbust]

I know everyone is telling OP to go to Chicago for almost free, but given that OP is getting $40k/year from H/S I think it's a completely understandable decision to go to one of those schools. ~$60k is an excusable amount to pay for quality of life and to avoid the feeling (even if it is idiosyncratic) of having settled on a school that wasn't your first choice. Also, IMO Hyde Park is kind of boring; I'd imagine OP would not find the "vibrant, urban setting" that he's looking for.

Second, OP would have no trouble getting back to CA from HLS. There are tons of Californians here at HLS, and in my experience the only people who have any issues getting a California offer from HLS are those that have bad grades, poor interviewing skills, and no ties to CA. I'm not saying it's never happened, but I've never heard of a Californian who wanted to go back not finding a market-paying firm. And as for competitive CA firms (e.g., MTO, Keker) you'll have to get good grades regardless of where you go. Basically, I don't buy the argument that it will be easier to get an offer from a given firm from SLS besides maybe small local Bay Area firms (and OP's not interested in those).

Also, I've been looking into it recently and the cross-registration options at HLS are amazing. The HKS courses in particular seem very unique. Given that OP has multiple good options, I think choosing a school where they'll feel happier and more intellectually stimulated totally fine.

IMO, another reason NOT to choose HLS: the "cross-registration options."

It's one thing if you're doing two degrees, where you actually get a full experience at both schools, but as a straight-JD you'll just end up being in 1 or 2 courses (that aren't the most attractive, headlining courses, which are reserved for "home" students) usually with little interaction / immersion with the broader school. I'm glad I took the HBS/HKS courses I did, but they definitely shouldn't tip the balance.

I agree with the Californians at HLS point. And I know many non-natives who managed to break in difficult West Coast markets (Portland, Seattle, SF). But, in relative terms, on this point I'm also not sure whether HLS is better than SLS ... I doubt it.

[landshoes]

I know everyone is telling OP to go to Chicago for almost free, but given that OP is getting $40k/year from H/S I think it's a completely understandable decision to go to one of those schools. ~$60k is an excusable amount to pay for quality of life and to avoid the feeling (even if it is idiosyncratic) of having settled on a school that wasn't your first choice. Also, IMO Hyde Park is kind of boring; I'd imagine OP would not find the "vibrant, urban setting" that he's looking for.

Second, OP would have no trouble getting back to CA from HLS. There are tons of Californians here at HLS, and in my experience the only people who have any issues getting a California offer from HLS are those that have bad grades, poor interviewing skills, and no ties to CA. I'm not saying it's never happened, but I've never heard of a Californian who wanted to go back not finding a market-paying firm. And as for competitive CA firms (e.g., MTO, Keker) you'll have to get good grades regardless of where you go. Basically, I don't buy the argument that it will be easier to get an offer from a given firm from SLS besides maybe small local Bay Area firms (and OP's not interested in those).

Also, I've been looking into it recently and the cross-registration options at HLS are amazing. The HKS courses in particular seem very unique. Given that OP has multiple good options, I think choosing a school where they'll feel happier and more intellectually stimulated totally fine.

I think Cambridge is cool and could see preferring it to Hyde Park (although it's wildly expensive), but it's kinda nonsensical to act like HP is the extent of Chicago, which is an awesome city and very accessible from Hyde Park.

[hlsperson123]

I think Cambridge is cool and could see preferring it to Hyde Park (although it's wildly expensive), but it's kinda nonsensical to act like HP is the extent of Chicago, which is an awesome city and very accessible from Hyde Park.

I don't think it's "nonsensical" to recognize that most law students are going to be near school the vast majority of the time, especially during their first year. So while I agree that Chicago is a great city that has lots to do, you're not really living in a vibrant, urban setting if you have to travel 45 minutes by public transit to get to there. The same thing is true, to some extent, with the differences between Cambridge/Boston and Palo Alto/San Francisco. But even Cambridge and Palo Alto are more exciting places than Hyde Park.

[bruinfan10]

OP,

Give your rather modest goals (law firm in LA), I'd seriously consider a full ride from CLS/Chicago/Berkeley if it's an option. You don't need HLS or SLS to get big law in LA, and you'll enjoy your post-grad life a lot more with an extra $200K in your pocket.

^^^so much this^^^

[SLS_AMG]

Stanford would like to brandish its best part to admitted students and the whole world, even that means it has to be in a really odd place not to disclose its dropped median several months after the national deadline (the only one in T-14).

Harvard is used to showing every aspect of its school to admitted students and the whole world. You will realize your real life is better than what you were imagining after starting your 1L.

Trust me, many straight P students at HLS get V10 jobs at NYC pretty easily (it needs to be emphasized that NY office is normally the strongest office of a law firm except a few tech firms) or even Cavath job. If you check Wachtell's attorney list, guess how many Stanford alumni are there? Less than the fingers of a hand. CA firms are gorging HLS students and your tie to CA will easily land you an excellent firm job there, whether prestigious litigation boutiques or tech-focused transactional work in V10.

Stanford does have a little bit higher clerkship percentage probably 28 percent versus 16 percent at HLS. But considering HLS is three times as big as SLS, you will know the huge difference in alumni network in the future.

If you really do not want to go to Yale, you should choose Harvard.

Lol @ "a little better" clerkship percentage. I guess almost double is just "a little better."

If there's no significant COA difference, I'd choose Stanford every time. HLS is a diploma mill (a very good one, admittedly, but it's still a factory of a law school). The classes are huge. Also, Boston and Cambridge objectively suck and practically your whole academic year will be the equivalent of winter.

Stanford enjoys great weather, smaller classes, and offers a much rarer degree -- something I'd find appealing if I was interested in the prestigious nature of schools (and OP apparently is). Also, GSB is just as prestigious as HBS.

TL; dr: Stanford for better weather/atmosphere/culture.

Also, am I the only one who thinks that in 50 years Stanford will be widely perceived as a superior school to Harvard?

[hlsperson123]

Lol @ "a little better" clerkship percentage. I guess almost double is just "a little better."

If there's no significant COA difference, I'd choose Stanford every time. HLS is a diploma mill (a very good one, admittedly, but it's still a factory of a law school). The classes are huge. Also, Boston and Cambridge objectively suck and practically your whole academic year will be the equivalent of winter.

Stanford enjoys great weather, smaller classes, and offers a much rarer degree -- something I'd find appealing if I was interested in the prestigious nature of schools (and OP apparently is). Also, GSB is just as prestigious as HBS.

TL; dr: Stanford for better weather/atmosphere/culture.

Also, am I the only one who thinks that in 50 years Stanford will be widely perceived as a superior school to Harvard?

TCR. Mods can we sticky this post?

[somethingElse]

Also, am I the only one who thinks that in 50 years Stanford will be widely perceived as a superior school to Harvard?

In 50 years, California will be near uninhabitable due to the water crisis and the resulting increase in COL.

[RZ5646]

Also, am I the only one who thinks that in 50 years Stanford will be widely perceived as a superior school to Harvard?

In 50 years, California will be near uninhabitable due to the water crisis and the resulting increase in COL.

For real though, there's supposedly an exodus of successful Californians to places like Colorado because CA taxes and COL are so high.

If we're going to give up actually advising OP on choosing a law school and instead compare the universities' lay prestige, we need to recognize that there really is no "view from nowhere," and where you live / grew up probably decides which school is considered more prestigious.

If you're anywhere near the West Coast, you may think that Stanford is the best school in the universe, and those ancient Ivies, like the rest of the Eastern establishment, will be "disrupted" by CA innovation any day now.

But if you're from the East, you may see Stanford in a different light: it's the best school west of the Appalachians, and some very smart people are flocking there because of its proximity to the Silicon Valley tech scene, but it's still a step below H, Y, P, etc. The average Easterner probably hasn't even heard of Stanford (except maybe through sports), but they use "Harvard" as a byword for intellectual achievement (and have for hundreds of years).

It will be interesting to see how things play out in the future, but I bet that geography will continue to hinder direct comparisons of lay prestige. They are on opposite coasts, after all.