Columbia vs. GULC ($$) Forum

[TheKisSquared]

Everyone, your advice and input has been incredibly valuable. I'm leaving this up w/ details for a little while longer (probably end of the day). I have some thinking still to do, so keep opinions coming.

I have no actual input other than to say that you should come to UVA with me.

If they's offered any money they'd have a fighting chance! Though honestly Charlottesville has a lot of the same issues as A2 for me

I don't feel well qualified to give this advice, but I would go with Columbia because as others have mentioned, in the employment numbers and current market, there's better security there. I think Columbia will be able to better help you reach your goals, and you'll either have a fantastic LRAP program to help you out or if you fall in love with transactional work, you'll have an open door to biglaw in NYC.

I think if you stick with PI, Columbia has the advantage because of their LRAP program. If you end up choosing a different type of law, Columbia has the advantage in that it seems you'll be more likely to land a great job. Yeah, you'll have a lot of debt, but say you come out of Georgetown and don't find a biglaw or equally high-salaried job? You'll still be sitting on $150k of debt.

This, I think, is where my head is right now. I'm glad I made this thread because I was worried I was too wrapped up in the rankings or something and not thinking straight, and at least I know I'm not completely off base.

[clurrburr]

Thanks for this thread -- I'm also strongly considering taking a huge debt plunge to go to Columbia for PI over a large scholarship elsewhere so it's helpful to hear these arguments. Maybe I'm saying this because I want to feel justified in my own decision and because I'm relatively less debt-averse than I think is typical here, but I definitely think Columbia is worth it. I feel like since so many fewer people at Columbia are going for PI vs. at Georgetown you might stand out more when applying to jobs, and would probably have more access to the PI resources. Plus New York is just better than DC!

[sprezz]

I would not go to GULC in this market.

same. and spending six figures to roll the GULC dice is just a no, full stop for me. not a spot on the risk reward curve i would ever be okay settling on. i see why others would find it appealing especially framed as the alternative to 350k debt. but if half that debt is what i have to take on for GULC i'm doing something else. maybe it's not law, at least for this cycle.

[crescentstars]

I'm also a 0L, (so I don't know how helpful I can be), and you seem to be close to a decision already. But as another PI person with similar goals (minus the IP interest), I'm really wary (maybe slightly paranoid) about PSLF/IBR and the changes they may incur. I brought this up in another topic - I think that while those of us entering law school will probably be grandfathered into the program before it's gutted/cut, there's definitely a chance that our forgiveness will get capped (as this has already been attempted). So Columbia's LRAP seems wayyy safer.

I'm still waiting on a bunch of fin aid packages, but this type of thinking is making me lean towards the schools with non-integrated LRAPs. So I'm cautiously adding my voice to the Columbia chorus, though of course that debt is crazy. You could also consider reapplying, but, a semi-splitter myself, I know that this doesn't guarantee the same/better outcomes for applicants like us. But that's just my $.02! It's a tough choice, but best of luck with the decision!

[krads153]

Both of these are risky choices IMO.

Can you retake/reapply for more scholly?

[Nebby]

I don't know anything about GULC's resources, but I do know CLS' and can vouch for the plethora of resources specifically for students interested in PI/Gov.

[jbagelboy]

it would be really interesting to see how many of GULC's 'government' jobs are actually salary paying federal government jd required positions that they didn't receive by virtue of prior employment before law school.

but i'm not aware of any such breakdown to mitigate their pathetic employment numbers.

[Nebby]

it would be really interesting to see how many of GULC's 'government' jobs are actually salary paying federal government jd required positions that they didn't receive by virtue of prior employment before law school.

but i'm not aware of any such breakdown to mitigate their pathetic employment numbers.

Yeah, I agree. I also feel the same way about my sticky on PI/Gov employment. I'll probably add a disclaimer to it later

[TheKisSquared]

Both of these are risky choices IMO.

Can you retake/reapply for more scholly?

174 is the highest I've ever gotten, even on a PT. I already have two mediocre/bad scores in front (though one would be too old in October). I'm not super inclined to wait as I don't see things improving for me :/

[krads153]

Both of these are risky choices IMO.

Can you retake/reapply for more scholly?

174 is the highest I've ever gotten, even on a PT. I already have two mediocre/bad scores in front (though one would be too old in October). I'm not super inclined to wait as I don't see things improving for me :/

Yeah, I see your point...

I just think these are both way too much debt...but I dunno, GULC's job prospects (like 1 in 5 unemployed/underemployed) are pretty bad....

[benwyatt]

I didn't realize we were stats twins!
I'm currently making a similar choice and leaning more towards CLS every day.

As for the retake argument above, with GPAs like ours, there's not a lot that a couple of points on the LSAT is going to do for you.

[TheKisSquared]

Both of these are risky choices IMO.

Can you retake/reapply for more scholly?

174 is the highest I've ever gotten, even on a PT. I already have two mediocre/bad scores in front (though one would be too old in October). I'm not super inclined to wait as I don't see things improving for me :/

Yeah, I see your point...

I just think these are both way too much debt...but I dunno, GULC's job prospects (like 1 in 5 unemployed/underemployed) are pretty bad....

the thing is if (huge if) I manage to stay on Columbia's LRAP for the full ten years, the debt is irrelevant. Even if I hack it for 7 or 8 I'm looking at a lot of forgiveness. and because I'm in PI now I don't have illusions of it being all ponies and unicorns and helping people all the time, so I'm pretty sure I could stay.

[James.K.Polk]

GULC all the way between the two, unless you'd even consider sitting out a year. I'd rather cast my luck at finishing above median at Georgetown and having my pick of jobs than suffer the stress 300k+ in debt. Yes, TLS is generally a debt-adverse environment, but attending the most expensive law school in the country with no financial aid seems like objective madness in any setting.

Also, I'd have a serious talk with yourself/your SO about Michigan or Northwestern.

[jbagelboy]

it would be really interesting to see how many of GULC's 'government' jobs are actually salary paying federal government jd required positions that they didn't receive by virtue of prior employment before law school.

but i'm not aware of any such breakdown to mitigate their pathetic employment numbers.

Yeah, I agree. I also feel the same way about my sticky on PI/Gov employment. I'll probably add a disclaimer to it later

I guess im honestly just not as concerned about it wrt CLS because of the ~15 people that go to "government" jobs each year I know first hand that the majority of them are honors program recipients.

If there were many more of them and they were unaccounted for, then yea I'd want to know its not bullshit

[20171203]

.

[krads153]

I'm also a 0L, (so I don't know how helpful I can be), and you seem to be close to a decision already. But as another PI person with similar goals (minus the IP interest), I'm really wary (maybe slightly paranoid) about PSLF/IBR and the changes they may incur. I brought this up in another topic - I think that while those of us entering law school will probably be grandfathered into the program before it's gutted/cut, there's definitely a chance that our forgiveness will get capped (as this has already been attempted). So Columbia's LRAP seems wayyy safer.

I'm still waiting on a bunch of fin aid packages, but this type of thinking is making me lean towards the schools with non-integrated LRAPs. So I'm cautiously adding my voice to the Columbia chorus, though of course that debt is crazy. You could also consider reapplying, but, a semi-splitter myself, I know that this doesn't guarantee the same/better outcomes for applicants like us. But that's just my $.02! It's a tough choice, but best of luck with the decision!

I'm a 0L as well and might eat my words in 4 years but I really don't share this sentiment with the majority of TLS. In order for the government to eventually scrap or limit these programs, they'd essentially be giving a huge middle finger to a large portion of the educated community, including to those in their own buildings. Even if they do somehow manage to alter the system, instituting these changes without a grandfather clause would be unprecedented.

Voted Columbia for the PI resources and for the better LRAP. Also not scared of debt though FWIW.

The bolded are related.

I probably wouldn't go to either at these prices.....

[crescentstars]

I'm also a 0L, (so I don't know how helpful I can be), and you seem to be close to a decision already. But as another PI person with similar goals (minus the IP interest), I'm really wary (maybe slightly paranoid) about PSLF/IBR and the changes they may incur. I brought this up in another topic - I think that while those of us entering law school will probably be grandfathered into the program before it's gutted/cut, there's definitely a chance that our forgiveness will get capped (as this has already been attempted). So Columbia's LRAP seems wayyy safer.

I'm still waiting on a bunch of fin aid packages, but this type of thinking is making me lean towards the schools with non-integrated LRAPs. So I'm cautiously adding my voice to the Columbia chorus, though of course that debt is crazy. You could also consider reapplying, but, a semi-splitter myself, I know that this doesn't guarantee the same/better outcomes for applicants like us. But that's just my $.02! It's a tough choice, but best of luck with the decision!

I'm a 0L as well and might eat my words in 4 years but I really don't share this sentiment with the majority of TLS. In order for the government to eventually scrap or limit these programs, they'd essentially be giving a huge middle finger to a large portion of the educated community, including to those in their own buildings. Even if they do somehow manage to alter the system, instituting these changes without a grandfather clause would be unprecedented.

Voted Columbia for the PI resources and for the better LRAP. Also not scared of debt though FWIW.

Hmm I see your point, but I feel like altering the program =/= scrapping it and not grandfathering us in. I agree that we would be grandfathered in (I mentioned that before). But other restrictions/alterations could very well be instituted (forgiveness caps, a salary eligibility cap akin to some schools' LRAP terms, salary-based penalties/fees, etc). Grads relying on PSLF can be hurt by a number of smaller possible changes.

Of course, this is all wild speculation. But the way I see it, the idea that in 13 years *nothing* in the program will change for us seems too good to be true. I do agree that legislators would be hesitant to negatively impact their own staff/people who actually work for them...but wouldn't an exemption for grads in those positions mitigate that issue?

And side note: based on my understanding PSLF, we don't "enroll" in it when we graduate law school, right? We enroll in IBR/PAYE and then apply for PSLF after we've made 120 months of income-based repayment while holding qualifying employment, right? So...it's easily inferrable that many grads intend to use PSLF, but we aren't actually registered in some database as people who definitely intend to do so?

Anyway, I don't want to post anything more here so as not to continue to derail OP's thread (sorry!). Thelincolnlawyer: PM if you want to continue this discussion (though I think my side question could be useful info for others, so maybe that warrants a response here?)

[GreenEggs]

And side note: based on my understanding PSLF, we don't "enroll" in it when we graduate law school, right? We enroll in IBR/PAYE and then apply for PSLF after we've made 120 months of income-based repayment while holding qualifying employment, right? So...it's easily inferrable that many grads intend to use PSLF, but we aren't actually registered in some database as people who definitely intend to do so?

Anyway, I don't want to post anything more here so as not to continue to derail OP's thread (sorry!). Thelincolnlawyer: PM if you want to continue this discussion (though I think my side question could be useful info for others, so maybe that warrants a response here?)

None of this applies to CLS because it's LRAP is not tied to PSLF.

For the ongoing discussion of PSLF, see this thread:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=262264

[somethingElse]

It applies to GULC which is the other school OP is considering, though. It also could apply to CLS, depending on which version of its LRAP you utilize.

[TheKisSquared]

It applies to GULC which is the other school OP is considering, though. It also could apply to CLS, depending on which version of its LRAP you utilize.

GULC's is surprisingly bad. Income caps, enrollment restrictions, clerkships don't count.... It would be a strong deterrent from even trying to join the program. At least at Columbia I don't have to balance a potential raise with a loss of funding.
I would probably do the lower LRAP because negative am is real. terrifyingly real.

[Wild Card]

Have you tried appealing GULC's award, from 32,500 per year to 50,000 per year?

I remember reading that their max is 40,000 per year, but you never know.

If it's GULC with a 150,000 named scholarship v. CLS with 0, I'd take the former.

[TheKisSquared]

Have you tried appealing GULC's award, from 32,500 per year to 50,000 per year?

I remember reading that their max is 40,000 per year, but you never know.

If it's GULC with a 150,000 named scholarship v. CLS with 0, I'd take the former.

This is after some negotiation. I doubt it.

[somethingElse]

One thing that you're probably already aware of, but that I think is worth mentioning just to be sure: If you're on CLS straight am plan, the LRAP award is based on your income and doesn't change depending on how much debt you have. So if you're making 60k a year, you would pay 3.45k a year irregardless of how much your loan payments are (unless you have very, very little debt, I would assume; but their website doesn't mention that scenario). So whether you owe 15k a year or 30k a year, CLS will write you a bigger/smaller check accordingly - you'll still pay 3.45k out of pocket either way.

I should also add that obviously less debt is still better than more debt, especially in the case that you drop out of LRAP eligible employment after, say, 6 years or whatever.

[Wild Card]

Have you tried appealing GULC's award, from 32,500 per year to 50,000 per year?

I remember reading that their max is 40,000 per year, but you never know.

If it's GULC with a 150,000 named scholarship v. CLS with 0, I'd take the former.

This is after some negotiation. I doubt it.

It wouldn't hurt at all to try again. You will never interact with admissions again after the end of the process.

[Nebby]

One thing that you're probably already aware of, but that I think is worth mentioning just to be sure: If you're on CLS straight am plan, the LRAP award is based on your income and doesn't change depending on how much debt you have. So if you're making 60k a year, you would pay 3.45k a year irregardless of how much your loan payments are (unless you have very, very little debt, I would assume; but their website doesn't mention that scenario). So whether you owe 15k a year or 30k a year, CLS will write you a bigger/smaller check accordingly - you'll still pay 3.45k out of pocket either way.

I should also add that obviously less debt is still better than more debt, especially in the case that you drop out of LRAP eligible employment after, say, 6 years or whatever.

Also, if you have undergrad loans, your income for LRAP purposes is subtracted with your annual undergrad loan payments. So if your salary is 60k, make undergrad loan payments at 5k annual, and therefore your LRAP is calculated at 55k.