Northwestern vs. Michigan for DC/Boston Forum

[cavalier1138]

The answer is Northwestern. Michigan's # of grads in DC doesn't really show that it has a stronger placement power than NU. They're peer schools. Chicago > Ann Arbor at same cost, especially given your own familiarity with the city and SO situation. Easy.

This. I very seriously doubt that Michigan has any placement advantage in DC at all.

It very may well have an advantage because of the real lack of NU grads in DC. There is no alumni network to push for you. I think it's changing though. A had a beer with a NU grad at convington and he said they are actively trying to recruit more.

But there is no fucking way the advantage is twice as much. Plus unless you get top 20% at Mich or NU, DC is tough sell either way. Whatever slight benefit there might be is canceled out by Michigan just sucking at jobs more than NU as a whole.

*Sigh* Why is it that you think Michigan "just sucks at jobs more than NU as a whole?"

IMO, Michigan is an objectively better choice for a PI interested person.

Only an idiot would assume different in PI placement is due to one school being better at it and not differences in student bodies wanting PI.

Except when a school consistently has a student body that wants to do PI and gets hired in that field, they develop a strong network for future hiring, a stronger LRAP and fellowship program to entice more students with similar interests, etc.

So yes, some schools are "better at PI" than others.

We're getting off track here but NU's fellowship program is pretty good. $50,000 in funding to get experience for a year at some legit PI place you'd probably be Volunteering for Free alternatively because PI places have no money to pay newbies. I think they award 8 of them, not sure how competitive they are (how many people are applying for them).

Oh, I agree that NU's getting better there. I just saw that the OP wasn't really interested in the PI numbers, so I figured it wasn't worth getting specific. Turns out the guy I was responding to is a troll, so there you go.

[GFox345]

The answer is Northwestern. Michigan's # of grads in DC doesn't really show that it has a stronger placement power than NU. They're peer schools. Chicago > Ann Arbor at same cost, especially given your own familiarity with the city and SO situation. Easy.

This. I very seriously doubt that Michigan has any placement advantage in DC at all.

It very may well have an advantage because of the real lack of NU grads in DC. There is no alumni network to push for you. I think it's changing though. A had a beer with a NU grad at convington and he said they are actively trying to recruit more.

But there is no fucking way the advantage is twice as much. Plus unless you get top 20% at Mich or NU, DC is tough sell either way. Whatever slight benefit there might be is canceled out by Michigan just sucking at jobs more than NU as a whole.

*Sigh* Why is it that you think Michigan "just sucks at jobs more than NU as a whole?"

IMO, Michigan is an objectively better choice for a PI interested person.

Only an idiot would assume different in PI placement is due to one school being better at it and not differences in student bodies wanting PI.

Yet all the time people (I'm guessing you fall into this category) see Michigan's "lagging" BigLaw numbers, assume that schools like Duke are better at it, and regard the idea that perhaps it might be due to a difference in the student bodies' career aspirations as an absurdity. Consistency anyone?

[krads153]

Except when a school consistently has a student body that wants to do PI and gets hired in that field, they develop a strong network for future hiring, a stronger LRAP and fellowship program to entice more students with similar interests, etc.

So yes, some schools are "better at PI" than others.

We're getting off track here but NU's fellowship program is pretty good. $50,000 in funding to get experience for a year at some legit PI place you'd probably be Volunteering for Free alternatively because PI places have no money to pay newbies. I think they award 8 of them, not sure how competitive they are (how many people are applying for them).

Don't most of the T-14 give like unlimited fellowships? Not sure how giving 8 of them is good

Anyway I know most of TLS is biglaw fan boys, etc., but PI isn't as easy to get as most people think. I've personally been rejected to PI jobs and I've already done a few years in biglaw.....I don't know who is getting PI jobs, but it ain't me and I have good grades from a T-14 law school plus top undergrad, and multiple languages plus years of biglaw experience. I also had multiple offers in biglaw in one of the "lost years" so I think I'm an okay interviewer. I don't know what PI is looking for, but maybe Order of the Coif, PI background/commitment, etc. (which I don't have)?

[Aeon]

Michigan places marginally better than Northwestern in both DC and Boston, but if your SO strongly prefers Chicago to Ann Arbor, then you could make a case for Northwestern. Also, Northwestern has robust tax and real estate course offerings and allows you to get a joint JD-Tax LLM degree in 6 or 7 semesters total: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/academi ... nt-degree/.

[yenisey]

The answer is Northwestern. Michigan's # of grads in DC doesn't really show that it has a stronger placement power than NU. They're peer schools. Chicago > Ann Arbor at same cost, especially given your own familiarity with the city and SO situation. Easy.

This. I very seriously doubt that Michigan has any placement advantage in DC at all.

It very may well have an advantage because of the real lack of NU grads in DC. There is no alumni network to push for you. I think it's changing though. A had a beer with a NU grad at convington and he said they are actively trying to recruit more.

But there is no fucking way the advantage is twice as much. Plus unless you get top 20% at Mich or NU, DC is tough sell either way. Whatever slight benefit there might be is canceled out by Michigan just sucking at jobs more than NU as a whole.

*Sigh* Why is it that you think Michigan "just sucks at jobs more than NU as a whole?"

IMO, Michigan is an objectively better choice for a PI interested person.

Do you mean Michigan, compared tu NU, pales in Biglaw numbers because of a good many top students going for PI?

[GFox345]

The answer is Northwestern. Michigan's # of grads in DC doesn't really show that it has a stronger placement power than NU. They're peer schools. Chicago > Ann Arbor at same cost, especially given your own familiarity with the city and SO situation. Easy.

This. I very seriously doubt that Michigan has any placement advantage in DC at all.

It very may well have an advantage because of the real lack of NU grads in DC. There is no alumni network to push for you. I think it's changing though. A had a beer with a NU grad at convington and he said they are actively trying to recruit more.

But there is no fucking way the advantage is twice as much. Plus unless you get top 20% at Mich or NU, DC is tough sell either way. Whatever slight benefit there might be is canceled out by Michigan just sucking at jobs more than NU as a whole.

*Sigh* Why is it that you think Michigan "just sucks at jobs more than NU as a whole?"

IMO, Michigan is an objectively better choice for a PI interested person.

Do you mean Michigan, compared tu NU, pales in Biglaw numbers because of a good many top students going for PI?

Michigan sends 21% of its class into PI, whereas NU only sends about 7%. Someone will have to correct me if they have good reason to think my assumption is faulty, but I believe that it is natural to assume that the PI applicants are distributed somewhat equally across the class. I believe this is the natural assumption to make and that a claim that the 21% of PI applicants is clustered in the top or bottom of the class is the extraordinary claim. Someone please correct me if they have good reason to believe that I am wrong about this. I do not accept the troll-narrative that all of the PI applicants are people who struck out at OCI.

The 21% vs. 7% figure, to me, does not suggest the Michigan is a better school than NU, but that Michigan likely has a culture that is more inclined towards PI. I believe, all things being equal, that a PI student may be better served by attending Michigan than NU as a result, but this is pure conjecture based on common-sense reasoning. I am a 0L and openly acknowledge that my understanding of the hiring process is incomplete. However, my claim is that Michigan places fewer students into BigLaw in comparison to its peer schools precisely because it sends a MUCH greater portion of its class into PI/Gov than those same peer schools. In my opinion, this is indicative of Michigan having a PI-inclined culture rather than Michigan being a "TTT in decline" or Michigan "sucking at jobs."

[Desert Fox]

The answer is Northwestern. Michigan's # of grads in DC doesn't really show that it has a stronger placement power than NU. They're peer schools. Chicago > Ann Arbor at same cost, especially given your own familiarity with the city and SO situation. Easy.

This. I very seriously doubt that Michigan has any placement advantage in DC at all.

It very may well have an advantage because of the real lack of NU grads in DC. There is no alumni network to push for you. I think it's changing though. A had a beer with a NU grad at convington and he said they are actively trying to recruit more.

But there is no fucking way the advantage is twice as much. Plus unless you get top 20% at Mich or NU, DC is tough sell either way. Whatever slight benefit there might be is canceled out by Michigan just sucking at jobs more than NU as a whole.

*Sigh* Why is it that you think Michigan "just sucks at jobs more than NU as a whole?"

IMO, Michigan is an objectively better choice for a PI interested person.

Do you mean Michigan, compared tu NU, pales in Biglaw numbers because of a good many top students going for PI?

Michigan sends 21% of its class into PI, whereas NU only sends about 7%. Someone will have to correct me if they have good reason to think my assumption is faulty, but I believe that it is natural to assume that the PI applicants are distributed somewhat equally across the class. I believe this is the natural assumption to make and that a claim that the 21% of PI applicants is clustered in the top or bottom of the class is the extraordinary claim. Someone please correct me if they have good reason to believe that I am wrong about this. I do not accept the troll-narrative that all of the PI applicants are people who struck out at OCI.

The 21% vs. 7% figure, to me, does not suggest the Michigan is a better school than NU, but that Michigan likely has a culture that is more inclined towards PI. I believe, all things being equal, that a PI student may be better served by attending Michigan than NU as a result, but this is pure conjecture based on common-sense reasoning. I am a 0L and openly acknowledge that my understanding of the hiring process is incomplete. However, my claim is that Michigan places fewer students into BigLaw in comparison to its peer schools precisely because it sends a MUCH greater portion of its class into PI/Gov than those same peer schools. In my opinion, this is indicative of Michigan having a PI-inclined culture rather than Michigan being a "TTT in decline" or Michigan "sucking at jobs."

In 2015- Michigan sent 30 grads into public interest--8% of their class. Northwestern 12 grads--4%.

But 15 of those Michican jobs are Fulltime Short Term. Which is odd. Northwestern only has 0 Fulltime short term. Whats going on?

Turns out Michigan funds PI internships for losers who graduated without a job. Twenty one of the 22 Fulltime short term jobs are school funded. So at least 14 of those Michigan PI jobs are just internships with a Michigan stipend. TBF, some of NU's fulltime long term PI might be school funded too, but it's harder to trace.

So POWA HAUS Michigan is sending 4% of it's class into paying PI gigs. UNSKEW

[cavalier1138]

The answer is Northwestern. Michigan's # of grads in DC doesn't really show that it has a stronger placement power than NU. They're peer schools. Chicago > Ann Arbor at same cost, especially given your own familiarity with the city and SO situation. Easy.

This. I very seriously doubt that Michigan has any placement advantage in DC at all.

It very may well have an advantage because of the real lack of NU grads in DC. There is no alumni network to push for you. I think it's changing though. A had a beer with a NU grad at convington and he said they are actively trying to recruit more.

But there is no fucking way the advantage is twice as much. Plus unless you get top 20% at Mich or NU, DC is tough sell either way. Whatever slight benefit there might be is canceled out by Michigan just sucking at jobs more than NU as a whole.

*Sigh* Why is it that you think Michigan "just sucks at jobs more than NU as a whole?"

IMO, Michigan is an objectively better choice for a PI interested person.

Do you mean Michigan, compared tu NU, pales in Biglaw numbers because of a good many top students going for PI?

Michigan sends 21% of its class into PI, whereas NU only sends about 7%. Someone will have to correct me if they have good reason to think my assumption is faulty, but I believe that it is natural to assume that the PI applicants are distributed somewhat equally across the class. I believe this is the natural assumption to make and that a claim that the 21% of PI applicants is clustered in the top or bottom of the class is the extraordinary claim. Someone please correct me if they have good reason to believe that I am wrong about this. I do not accept the troll-narrative that all of the PI applicants are people who struck out at OCI.

The 21% vs. 7% figure, to me, does not suggest the Michigan is a better school than NU, but that Michigan likely has a culture that is more inclined towards PI. I believe, all things being equal, that a PI student may be better served by attending Michigan than NU as a result, but this is pure conjecture based on common-sense reasoning. I am a 0L and openly acknowledge that my understanding of the hiring process is incomplete. However, my claim is that Michigan places fewer students into BigLaw in comparison to its peer schools precisely because it sends a MUCH greater portion of its class into PI/Gov than those same peer schools. In my opinion, this is indicative of Michigan having a PI-inclined culture rather than Michigan being a "TTT in decline" or Michigan "sucking at jobs."

In 2015- Michigan sent 30 grads into public interest--8% of their class. Northwestern 12 grads--4%.

But 15 of those Michican jobs are Fulltime Short Term. Which is odd. Northwestern only has 0 Fulltime short term. Whats going on?

Turns out Michigan funds PI internships for losers who graduated without a job. Twenty one of the 22 Fulltime short term jobs are school funded. So at least 14 of those Michigan PI jobs are just internships with a Michigan stipend. TBF, some of NU's fulltime long term PI might be school funded too, but it's harder to trace.

So POWA HAUS Michigan is sending 4% of it's class into paying PI gigs. UNSKEW

Well, your avatar seems more appropriate with every post you make...

Fellowships (not all of which are school-funded) are one of the best ways to get in to PI work. I'm not sure why this isn't common knowledge, but the DOJ and ACLU tend to not hire you right out of school. Fellowships are a way to get you into those positions through a channel that involves one year of work for the organization in question instead of 4-5 years bouncing around different jobs to get to the one you really want.

But seriously, enough with the trolling on PI.

[GFox345]

The answer is Northwestern. Michigan's # of grads in DC doesn't really show that it has a stronger placement power than NU. They're peer schools. Chicago > Ann Arbor at same cost, especially given your own familiarity with the city and SO situation. Easy.

This. I very seriously doubt that Michigan has any placement advantage in DC at all.

It very may well have an advantage because of the real lack of NU grads in DC. There is no alumni network to push for you. I think it's changing though. A had a beer with a NU grad at convington and he said they are actively trying to recruit more.

But there is no fucking way the advantage is twice as much. Plus unless you get top 20% at Mich or NU, DC is tough sell either way. Whatever slight benefit there might be is canceled out by Michigan just sucking at jobs more than NU as a whole.

*Sigh* Why is it that you think Michigan "just sucks at jobs more than NU as a whole?"

IMO, Michigan is an objectively better choice for a PI interested person.

Do you mean Michigan, compared tu NU, pales in Biglaw numbers because of a good many top students going for PI?

Michigan sends 21% of its class into PI, whereas NU only sends about 7%. Someone will have to correct me if they have good reason to think my assumption is faulty, but I believe that it is natural to assume that the PI applicants are distributed somewhat equally across the class. I believe this is the natural assumption to make and that a claim that the 21% of PI applicants is clustered in the top or bottom of the class is the extraordinary claim. Someone please correct me if they have good reason to believe that I am wrong about this. I do not accept the troll-narrative that all of the PI applicants are people who struck out at OCI.

The 21% vs. 7% figure, to me, does not suggest the Michigan is a better school than NU, but that Michigan likely has a culture that is more inclined towards PI. I believe, all things being equal, that a PI student may be better served by attending Michigan than NU as a result, but this is pure conjecture based on common-sense reasoning. I am a 0L and openly acknowledge that my understanding of the hiring process is incomplete. However, my claim is that Michigan places fewer students into BigLaw in comparison to its peer schools precisely because it sends a MUCH greater portion of its class into PI/Gov than those same peer schools. In my opinion, this is indicative of Michigan having a PI-inclined culture rather than Michigan being a "TTT in decline" or Michigan "sucking at jobs."

In 2015- Michigan sent 30 grads into public interest--8% of their class. Northwestern 12 grads--4%.

But 15 of those Michican jobs are Fulltime Short Term. Which is odd. Northwestern only has 0 Fulltime short term. Whats going on?

Turns out Michigan funds PI internships for losers who graduated without a job. Twenty one of the 22 Fulltime short term jobs are school funded. So at least 14 of those Michigan PI jobs are just internships with a Michigan stipend. TBF, some of NU's fulltime long term PI might be school funded too, but it's harder to trace.

So POWA HAUS Michigan is sending 4% of it's class into paying PI gigs. UNSKEW

Yeah, so here's a more comprehensive view of "POWA HAUS" Michigan's results compared to NU's:

Michigan (Class Size: 390)

PI: 30 (14 FTLT, 15 FTST, 1 PTLT)
Gov: 37 (31 FTLT, 6 FTST)

Total: 67 (17.2%) = 45 FTLT (11.5%) , 21 (5.4%) FTST, 1 (.3%) PTLT

Northwestern (Class Size: 288)

PI: 12 = 12 FTLT
Gov: 8 = 7 FTLT, 1 PTST

Total: 20 (7%) = 19 FTLT (6.6%) + 1 PTST (.4%)

So, let's use Desert Fox's assumption that every single grad who gets anything but a FTLT Job in PI or Gov is a "loser who graduated without a job" and that the school-funded positions are just a way to cover up Michigan's unemployment rates. Even still, the numbers are as follows:

Michigan PI/Gov FTLT = 45 (11.5%)
NU PI/Gov FTLT = 19 (6.6%)

The difference of 5% is definitely not trivial given that the difference between Michigan and NU for BigLaw+FC is 8%. And this stands even if we take Desert Fox on his own terms and accept that none of those FTST positions at Michigan are legit, which from what I've heard is not accurate.

[lymenheimer]

Yeah, so here's a more comprehensive view of "POWA HAUS" Michigan's results compared to NU's:

Michigan (Class Size: 390)

PI: 30 (14 FTLT, 15 FTST, 1 PTLT)
Gov: 37 (31 FTLT, 6 FTST)

Total: 67 (17.2%) = 45 FTLT (11.5%) , 21 (5.4%) FTST, 1 (.3%) PTLT

Northwestern (Class Size: 288)

PI: 12 = 12 FTLT
Gov: 8 = 7 FTLT, 1 PTST

Total: 20 (7%) = 19 FTLT (6.6%) + 1 PTST (.4%)

So, let's use Desert Fox's assumption that every single grad who gets anything but a FTLT Job in PI or Gov is a "loser who graduated without a job" and that the school-funded positions are just a way to cover up Michigan's unemployment rates. Even still, the numbers are as follows:

Michigan PI/Gov FTLT = 45 (11.5%)
NU PI/Gov FTLT = 19 (6.6%)

The difference of 5% is definitely not trivial given that the difference between Michigan and NU for BigLaw+FC is 8%. And this stands even if we take Desert Fox on his own terms and accept that none of those FTST positions at Michigan are legit, which from what I've heard is not accurate.

I bet if NU had a larger class size they would have the same number of PI folks as Mich.

[cavalier1138]

Yeah, so here's a more comprehensive view of "POWA HAUS" Michigan's results compared to NU's:

Michigan (Class Size: 390)

PI: 30 (14 FTLT, 15 FTST, 1 PTLT)
Gov: 37 (31 FTLT, 6 FTST)

Total: 67 (17.2%) = 45 FTLT (11.5%) , 21 (5.4%) FTST, 1 (.3%) PTLT

Northwestern (Class Size: 288)

PI: 12 = 12 FTLT
Gov: 8 = 7 FTLT, 1 PTST

Total: 20 (7%) = 19 FTLT (6.6%) + 1 PTST (.4%)

So, let's use Desert Fox's assumption that every single grad who gets anything but a FTLT Job in PI or Gov is a "loser who graduated without a job" and that the school-funded positions are just a way to cover up Michigan's unemployment rates. Even still, the numbers are as follows:

Michigan PI/Gov FTLT = 45 (11.5%)
NU PI/Gov FTLT = 19 (6.6%)

The difference of 5% is definitely not trivial given that the difference between Michigan and NU for BigLaw+FC is 8%. And this stands even if we take Desert Fox on his own terms and accept that none of those FTST positions at Michigan are legit, which from what I've heard is not accurate.

I bet if NU had a larger class size they would have the same number of PI folks as Mich.

I bet they wouldn't.

NU just doesn't emphasize PI to the same degree as Michigan does. I know they're starting to work on that this year, but they're near the bottom of the T14 for PI numbers.

[lymenheimer]

I bet they wouldn't.

NU just doesn't emphasize PI to the same degree as Michigan does. I know they're starting to work on that this year, but they're near the bottom of the T14 for PI numbers.

I actually don't care, nor do I have a dog in this fight. I was just using the logic of Mich-apologists in reverse: "If Mich had a smaller class size, they'd have better BL+FC numbers."

[jnwa]

I bet they wouldn't.

NU just doesn't emphasize PI to the same degree as Michigan does. I know they're starting to work on that this year, but they're near the bottom of the T14 for PI numbers.

I actually don't care, nor do I have a dog in this fight. I was just using the logic of Mich-apologists in reverse: "If Mich had a smaller class size, they'd have better BL+FC numbers."

but mich's class sizes are actually getting smaller and their BL numbers have gotten better as well. The fact that people are so confident in declarations based on incomplete data that is 3 years old is odd to me. They are peer school, OP should go to NW because his s/o likes Chicago not because employers like NW median students more than Mich median students .

[GFox345]

I bet they wouldn't.

NU just doesn't emphasize PI to the same degree as Michigan does. I know they're starting to work on that this year, but they're near the bottom of the T14 for PI numbers.

I actually don't care, nor do I have a dog in this fight. I was just using the logic of Mich-apologists in reverse: "If Mich had a smaller class size, they'd have better BL+FC numbers."

I have not used this argument, and I honestly don't think it has any merit. What I've been saying is that Michigan doesn't need apologists in the first place because their PI numbers close the gap with Peer schools. Michigan sends 20% of its class into PI/Gov, Duke sends 5%. This is a difference of 15% of the class size. Lo and behold Michigan's BL+FC is 61%, Duke's is 76%. Lo and behold: this is also a difference of 15%....

This must mean that this is the same portion of the class out of Michigan that sucks too much to get BigLaw, so they go into PI, right!? Yeah, no. That's absurd.

I guess, like you, I am using the logic of BL+FC whores in reverse. Higher BL+FC numbers clearly imply more placement power for BL and FC, so higher PI numbers clearly imply more placement power for PI. It couldn't possibly be due to a cultural difference, right?

People on this forum intend to make analysis into a career and trip up over this shit? Good luck!

[DELG]

Did 20+% of Mich students do PI in 2006

[Budfox55]

I bet they wouldn't.

NU just doesn't emphasize PI to the same degree as Michigan does. I know they're starting to work on that this year, but they're near the bottom of the T14 for PI numbers.

I actually don't care, nor do I have a dog in this fight. I was just using the logic of Mich-apologists in reverse: "If Mich had a smaller class size, they'd have better BL+FC numbers."

but mich's class sizes are actually getting smaller and their BL numbers have gotten better as well. The fact that people are so confident in declarations based on incomplete data that is 3 years old is odd to me. They are peer school, OP should go to NW because his s/o likes Chicago not because employers like NW median students more than Mich median students .

So going to be that guy here, especially since I just deposited at NU . You can use the smaller class size argument for NU as well. The class of 2015 had 288 students, meanwhile 213 entered in 2015 (There are 13 net transfers in the 2015 ABA report). This could be the work of the new dean that they brought in. Also a much larger % of the student population are JD/MBAs and essentially all of these self-select out of gov/PI. I'm sure Michigan probably does have a larger % of students wanting PI, but issues with extrapolating 2015 jobs data works both ways.

[jnwa]

I bet they wouldn't.

NU just doesn't emphasize PI to the same degree as Michigan does. I know they're starting to work on that this year, but they're near the bottom of the T14 for PI numbers.

I actually don't care, nor do I have a dog in this fight. I was just using the logic of Mich-apologists in reverse: "If Mich had a smaller class size, they'd have better BL+FC numbers."

but mich's class sizes are actually getting smaller and their BL numbers have gotten better as well. The fact that people are so confident in declarations based on incomplete data that is 3 years old is odd to me. They are peer school, OP should go to NW because his s/o likes Chicago not because employers like NW median students more than Mich median students .

So going to be that guy here, especially since I just deposited at NU . You can use the smaller class size argument for NU as well. The class of 2015 had 288 students, meanwhile 213 entered in 2015 (There are 13 net transfers in the 2015 ABA report). This could be the work of the new dean that they brought in. Also a much larger % of the student population are JD/MBAs and essentially all of these self-select out of gov/PI. I'm sure Michigan probably does have a larger % of students wanting PI, but issues with extrapolating 2015 jobs data works both ways.

I agree, I wasn't saying that the data lag favoured Mich as much as I was pointing out the ridiculousness of making fine distinctions between peer schools based on incomplete data that may very well be irrelevant by the time OP graduates. Class composition and size definitely skews the data in some ways.

[Meow Meowsworth]

The answer is Northwestern. Michigan's # of grads in DC doesn't really show that it has a stronger placement power than NU. They're peer schools. Chicago > Ann Arbor at same cost, especially given your own familiarity with the city and SO situation. Easy.

This. I very seriously doubt that Michigan has any placement advantage in DC at all.

It very may well have an advantage because of the real lack of NU grads in DC. There is no alumni network to push for you. I think it's changing though. A had a beer with a NU grad at convington and he said they are actively trying to recruit more.

But there is no fucking way the advantage is twice as much. Plus unless you get top 20% at Mich or NU, DC is tough sell either way. Whatever slight benefit there might be is canceled out by Michigan just sucking at jobs more than NU as a whole.

*Sigh* Why is it that you think Michigan "just sucks at jobs more than NU as a whole?"

IMO, Michigan is an objectively better choice for a PI interested person.

Do you mean Michigan, compared tu NU, pales in Biglaw numbers because of a good many top students going for PI?

Michigan sends 21% of its class into PI, whereas NU only sends about 7%. Someone will have to correct me if they have good reason to think my assumption is faulty, but I believe that it is natural to assume that the PI applicants are distributed somewhat equally across the class. I believe this is the natural assumption to make and that a claim that the 21% of PI applicants is clustered in the top or bottom of the class is the extraordinary claim. Someone please correct me if they have good reason to believe that I am wrong about this. I do not accept the troll-narrative that all of the PI applicants are people who struck out at OCI.

The 21% vs. 7% figure, to me, does not suggest the Michigan is a better school than NU, but that Michigan likely has a culture that is more inclined towards PI. I believe, all things being equal, that a PI student may be better served by attending Michigan than NU as a result, but this is pure conjecture based on common-sense reasoning. I am a 0L and openly acknowledge that my understanding of the hiring process is incomplete. However, my claim is that Michigan places fewer students into BigLaw in comparison to its peer schools precisely because it sends a MUCH greater portion of its class into PI/Gov than those same peer schools. In my opinion, this is indicative of Michigan having a PI-inclined culture rather than Michigan being a "TTT in decline" or Michigan "sucking at jobs."

In 2015- Michigan sent 30 grads into public interest--8% of their class. Northwestern 12 grads--4%.

But 15 of those Michican jobs are Fulltime Short Term. Which is odd. Northwestern only has 0 Fulltime short term. Whats going on?

Turns out Michigan funds PI internships for losers who graduated without a job. Twenty one of the 22 Fulltime short term jobs are school funded. So at least 14 of those Michigan PI jobs are just internships with a Michigan stipend. TBF, some of NU's fulltime long term PI might be school funded too, but it's harder to trace.

So POWA HAUS Michigan is sending 4% of it's class into paying PI gigs. UNSKEW

Just wanted to clarify this as a current NU student. NU has the Pritzker fellowship for people interested in PI/government work. $50k a year + benefits to work full time at a non-profit or government employer (most of the government employers have been PD's offices). This has been in existence for the last 2 years, and typically ~10 people get these fellowships per year. They last one year from their start date, so they count as FTLT.

[krads153]

^ So those NU PI jobs aren't real jobs....what are you guys arguing about again?

[star fox]

^ So those NU PI jobs aren't real jobs....what are you guys arguing about again?

Nah, they're actually pretty good. They have to have an employer in place before they're eligible. It basically lets them work somewhere that wouldn't be able to pay them otherwise so they have a year experience and are much more likely to land something permanent otherwise. Even if it's gaming, it's a good deal. It's not like $12/hr to work at the library.

[Meow Meowsworth]

^ So those NU PI jobs aren't real jobs....what are you guys arguing about again?

I don't know if I would say that, but I understand why you said it. I don't know about the people in the first year of the Pritzker fellowship because I didn't know any of them, but the people who did it last year and this year were all aiming for it or another fellowship since at least 2L (and many since the beginning of law school). They're better than an EJW fellowship in terms of pay ($41k vs. $50k), but the EJW fellowship is a year longer, so in that way they are inferior to EJW. Agencies frequently keep people on after these fellowships, but it is obviously not a guarantee.

I just looked up the 10 Pritzker fellows from the class of 2014 whose fellowships would have ended this past fall. I could only find information on 9 of them, but 6 are still at the non-profit/agency they got the fellowship at (so the non-profit/agency hired them to a FTLT after completion of the fellowship). One of the other three went to big law, one went to a better PI job in the same area of law in which she did her fellowship, and the other went to a small PI-focused firm. So at least for the class of 2014, I don't think these fellowships had bad outcomes.

[cavalier1138]

^ So those NU PI jobs aren't real jobs....what are you guys arguing about again?

Gee, I can't imagine why PI students perceive so many biglaw-or-bust students to be condescending and soulless...

[krads153]

^ So those NU PI jobs aren't real jobs....what are you guys arguing about again?

Gee, I can't imagine why PI students perceive so many biglaw-or-bust students to be condescending and soulless...

My point was they aren't technically employed full time by the PI orgs, so they aren't real jobs..........not that PI isn't a real job.