UVA at sticker vs. Indiana full ride?! Help Forum

[ponderingmeerkat]

Hey all,

I would love to attend UVA - even at sticker - but I am married with a child and the COA is astronomical. If I go to UVA I'll have to take out 240K in loans over the three years. The issue though is, I don't really want to do biglaw. So I'm not sure how I could manage such a huge debt load otherwise.

On the other hand I have an opportunity to attend a T25 school on a full ride. I don't really like that idea either because Indiana just squeaked into the top 25 this year. Also, they are farther from home and have significantly weaker job prospects. Also I have fallen in love with all things UVA already.

Let me know what you guys think...

Dude, I'm the first guy on this board to suggest people should consider a T-14 with national reach over a regional with a big scholarship when the decision falls in a "grey area" (to the point where guys like u/TLS2016 lose their shit when they read my advice). You can see me in other threads suggesting someone should go to Berkeley at $80K over a full-ride at a state school. You can also see me spouting radical heresies in a thread where I recommend a guy take Harvard near-sticker or Duke half-off over a full ride a WUSTL. The amount of pearl-clutching and holy-water exorcisms that were being done to quell the fears of the debt-free evangelicals was hilarious.

All that to frame what I'm about to say. You need to listen to this advise very carefully: DO NOT GO TO UVA STICKER! HYS at/near sticker might make sense. UVA within $80K of Indiana might make sense. UVA at $300K??! Think of your child, man.

I hope you like Indiana because that's probably where you will be spending the rest of your life if you go that route. And, I hope you enjoy Ramen and studio apartments for the next decade if you go the UVA route.

Or...or...wait for it...retake.

[strongbadge]

Hahaha this has been amazing! TLS truly never disappoints. I want to thank all the contributors for their opinions. It has really given me a lot to consider.

[smithk]

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[albanach]

You are absolutely wrong. What door down the line will UVA open? After your first job, your work and reputation matter the most. That debt is no joke and LRAP has lots of drawbacks, some real and some based on somewhat realistic fears that the program can be capped because it's paired with IBR payments meaning ever increasing debt.

No one should pay sticker at UVA if they are debt financing the cost. It's even more clear when you have a family and a child to provide for and you know you don't want a biglaw career.

Also, OP hasn't provided the debt he will actually owe at graduation. He will borrow a quarter of a million dollars and he hasn't included the interest he will owe that is running from the day he borrows the money. It's probably another $20,000 or so.

Even if OP is on UVA LRAP, he loses it when he makes more than $75,000. These programs have to be examined carefully.

Starting at the end, losing LRAP isn't a big deal so long as IBR continues. Of course it could be scrapped, but I think it's likely to just be stretched out further before the public interest write-off kicks in. That, of course is a personal view. Under IBR at 10%, a family with combined income of $100k are repaying what, $250/month? I think that's manageable with or without LRAP. So the big gamble is that IBR continues.

As to your other comments about opening doors, bear in mind that your first job is hugely important. It's incredibly hard to work up the legal tiers. Without a doubt UVA opened doors that would otherwise have been closed to me. I stood in OPs shoes and the decision to attend worked out fantastically. (YMMV, Past Performance is no Guarantee of Future Results).

[pleadthafif]

0L here so I realize my opinion means shit, but 6.84% compounding interest on $300k worth of debt is scary as fuck.

[albanach]

0L here so I realize my opinion means shit, but 6.84% compounding interest on $300k worth of debt is scary as fuck.

Well, if you get biglaw, you're typically going to refinance and won't be paying 6.8%. If you don't and have that level of debt, you are hopefully going to rely on IBR (and thus have to gamble that it still exists at graduation).

[acr]

UVA at sticker is just crazy

[Tiago Splitter]

0L here so I realize my opinion means shit, but 6.84% compounding interest on $300k worth of debt is scary as fuck.

Well, if you get biglaw, you're typically going to refinance and won't be paying 6.8%. If you don't and have that level of debt, you are hopefully going to rely on IBR (and thus have to gamble that it still exists at graduation).

It's also simple, not compound, interest, if you keep the loans federal. Not that I'd advocate anyone take on that amount regardless.

[albanach]

UVA at sticker is just crazy

Looking at your post history, you suggest bailing out of law school if you approach median. Surely there's merit in considering UVA - where at median you have a good shot at a career in biglaw or Federal Government - versus a lower COA at a school ranked further down where the job situation can be so precarious at median that you would consider bailing?

T14 at sticker isn't for everyone, but I'm surprised at just how conservative the forum has become in just a few years.

[baal hadad]

UVA at sticker is just crazy

Looking at your post history, you suggest bailing out of law school if you approach median. Surely there's merit in considering UVA - where at median you have a good shot at a career in biglaw or Federal Government - versus a lower COA at a school ranked further down where the job situation can be so precarious at median that you would consider bailing?

T14 at sticker isn't for everyone, but I'm surprised at just how conservative the forum has become in just a few years.

Back when I started posting here in like early 2010 true legal employment stats were not known. LST didn't exist. Schools still published fraudulent stats on the reg. Full sticker debt at a place like uva was I think somewhere around the $215-225k level. Starting salaries at big market firms were $160k. Going to a T14 sticker and getting a big law job seemed like a decent bet. Also there were not a lot of poaster in the board who had actually worked at such jobs so what the job was actually like wasn't taken into account really.

Contrast to now
1) we have lst that shows precisely how many people get big law or fed clerkships
2) sticker debt is now at the $300k level
3) first yr salary at major market firms is STILL $160k
4) there are more poster who have actually worked at these big law jobs and are open and honest about how awful the quality of life is and how difficult it is to repay debnts

No surprise that this because of rising cost and better info about job outcomes this board no longer recommends sticker at t14 as a matter of course

[albanach]

Back when I started posting here in like early 2010 true legal employment stats were not known. LST didn't exist. Schools still published fraudulent stats on the reg. Full sticker debt at a place like uva was I think somewhere around the $215-225k level. Starting salaries at big market firms were $160k. Going to a T14 sticker and getting a big law job seemed like a decent bet. Also there were not a lot of poaster in the board who had actually worked at such jobs so what the job was actually like wasn't taken into account really.

Contrast to now
1) we have lst that shows precisely how many people get big law or fed clerkships
2) sticker debt is now at the $300k level
3) first yr salary at major market firms is STILL $160k
4) there are more poster who have actually worked at these big law jobs and are open and honest about how awful the quality of life is and how difficult it is to repay debnts

No surprise that this because of rising cost and better info about job outcomes this board no longer recommends sticker at t14 as a matter of course

So what troubles you about UVA?

98% full time employment. Over 75% earning above $60k. 25th percentile for private sector employment at $136k.

Those stats are far better than you'll see from IU which, assuming the full-ride doesn't include cost of living, is still going to leave them $75k plus in debt. At IU, 40% of the class haven't reported salary data, the 75th percentile for private sector employment is below the 25th at UVA, and 10% of the graduating class are unemployed.

If OP really doesn't want biglaw, UVA's Kennedy program means good access to a school funded public service position too. That's an effective way to open employment doors.

[baal hadad]

Back when I started posting here in like early 2010 true legal employment stats were not known. LST didn't exist. Schools still published fraudulent stats on the reg. Full sticker debt at a place like uva was I think somewhere around the $215-225k level. Starting salaries at big market firms were $160k. Going to a T14 sticker and getting a big law job seemed like a decent bet. Also there were not a lot of poaster in the board who had actually worked at such jobs so what the job was actually like wasn't taken into account really.

Contrast to now
1) we have lst that shows precisely how many people get big law or fed clerkships
2) sticker debt is now at the $300k level
3) first yr salary at major market firms is STILL $160k
4) there are more poster who have actually worked at these big law jobs and are open and honest about how awful the quality of life is and how difficult it is to repay debnts

No surprise that this because of rising cost and better info about job outcomes this board no longer recommends sticker at t14 as a matter of course

So what troubles you about UVA?

98% full time employment. Over 75% earning above $60k. 25th percentile for private sector employment at $136k.

Those stats are far better than you'll see from IU which, assuming the full-ride doesn't include cost of living, is still going to leave them $75k plus in debt. At IU, 40% of the class haven't reported salary data, the 75th percentile for private sector employment is below the 25th at UVA, and 10% of the graduating class are unemployed.

If OP really doesn't want biglaw, UVA's Kennedy program means good access to a school funded public service position too. That's an effective way to open employment doors.

I don't think op should go to iu

Going $300k into debt for big law is dumb

Going $300k into debt for public interest is dumb

Going $300k into debt for uva is dumb

[albanach]

Going $300k into debt for uva is dumb

Obviously, that's very dependent on how risk averse you are. There's probably a hundred or so folk each year paying sticker at UVA. Unless things have changed markedly, I think it's unlikely that many of them are dumb.

[baal hadad]

Going $300k into debt for uva is dumb

Obviously, that's very dependent on how risk averse you are. There's probably a hundred or so folk each year paying sticker at UVA. Unless things have changed markedly, I think it's unlikely that many of them are dumb.

They are

[acr]

UVA at sticker is just crazy

Looking at your post history, you suggest bailing out of law school if you approach median. Surely there's merit in considering UVA - where at median you have a good shot at a career in biglaw or Federal Government - versus a lower COA at a school ranked further down where the job situation can be so precarious at median that you would consider bailing?

T14 at sticker isn't for everyone, but I'm surprised at just how conservative the forum has become in just a few years.

First, I don't recommend bailing at median for everyone. That's a personal decision that would be the best decision for me given my circumstances. But I think there are definitely circumstances where dropping out at median is totally justifiable, especially if you're paying sticker or close to it somewhere and your odds of getting a job just aren't that good. It's not a binary category where I recommend that anyone below Georgetown who is at median should drop out. Not at all. But there is no harm in realistically evaluating where you are and whether it makes sense to keep going forward.

Second, it's 300K before compounding interest, dude. My friends' 6 bedroom house in flyover country cost $275K. It is just absolutely ridiculous to me to go into 300K of debt for a job that is widely regarded as one of the shittiest things a human being can do. How many stories and experiences have to be shared before we realize that big law might not be worth it despite the money? Taking out 300K for the opportunity to be a scribe at some legal mine in NYC or DC is a terrible option for most people, especially those who haven't worked in an environment like big law for a single day in their life. Can paying sticker work out for some people? Sure.

Here's the kicker: getting a better, less risky outcome is NOT that difficult. It's as simple as scoring 90/100 on a multiple choice test that is the same every single year.

The only time where someone can't improve their outcome is if 1) their GPA is sub 3.0 and they won't get a full ride anywhere; and 2) they have maxed out their retakes. If either of these situations apply, then law school just might not be the best choice. I don't see where advising people not to take out 300K for a job they might hate is "conservative"

[TheRealSantaClaus]

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[Tiago Splitter]

Going $300k into debt for uva is dumb

Obviously, that's very dependent on how risk averse you are. There's probably a hundred or so folk each year paying sticker at UVA. Unless things have changed markedly, I think it's unlikely that many of them are dumb.

They are

Just curious on how you feel about people paying sticker for H/Y/S (as that option seems to be so acceptable here)? Obviously biglaw is no guarantee at UVA, and they do hire about 10% of their grads, but it remains a fantastic, national school that lags behind only 7-8 schools in terms of opportunities and employment numbers. Even then, the gap between UVA and say, Harvard is not nearly as large as that between Virginia and a strong regionalm

Sticker at HYS is usually a bad idea too. Many times worse than UVA because for some deep splitters UVA is the only option.

[TheRealSantaClaus]

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[baal hadad]

Going $300k into debt for uva is dumb

Obviously, that's very dependent on how risk averse you are. There's probably a hundred or so folk each year paying sticker at UVA. Unless things have changed markedly, I think it's unlikely that many of them are dumb.

They are

Just curious on how you feel about people paying sticker for H/Y/S (as that option seems to be so acceptable here)? Obviously biglaw is no guarantee at UVA, and they do hire about 10% of their grads, but it remains a fantastic, national school that lags behind only 7-8 schools in terms of opportunities and employment numbers. Even then, the gap between UVA and say, Harvard is not nearly as large as that between Virginia and a strong regionalm

Sticker at HYS is usually a bad idea too. Many times worse than UVA because for some deep splitters UVA is the only option.

You're one of the first I've heard to hear say that. Regardless of my stance in this debate, I have mixed feelings about someone paying sticker regardless of the T14 (though it could be more defensible at H than say, GULC).

The point above made about T14 tuition and COL rising while 1st year biglaw wages remain $160k is a fair one. It's no wonder that apps have dropped and top talents who once considered law are pursuing other fields of work. Sticker price doesn't hold the same value it once did.

for the record i also agree with tiago that sticker debt for hys is a bad idea

[Tiago Splitter]

You're one of the first I've heard to hear say that. Regardless of my stance in this debate, I have mixed feelings about someone paying sticker regardless of the T14 (though it could be more defensible at H than say, GULC).

The point above made about T14 tuition and COL rising while 1st year biglaw wages remain $160k is a fair one. It's no wonder that apps have dropped and top talents who once considered law are pursuing other fields of work. Sticker price doesn't hold the same value it once did.

Look at any choosing thread that includes Harvard and you'll see a lot of people share my opinion. But I'll concede that it's easier to turn down Harvard when you have 150k scholarships elsewhere in the T-14.

To your second point I think it's easy even for recent grads to fail to understand just how expensive things have gotten. I remember when I first came to this site the idea that anyone was taking on 200k debt was a bit of a shocker. Now sticker is comfortably over 300k.

[albanach]

Second, it's 300K before compounding interest, dude. My friends' 6 bedroom house in flyover country cost $275K. It is just absolutely ridiculous to me to go into 300K of debt for a job that is widely regarded as one of the shittiest things a human being can do. How many stories and experiences have to be shared before we realize that big law might not be worth it despite the money? Taking out 300K for the opportunity to be a scribe at some legal mine in NYC or DC is a terrible option for most people, especially those who haven't worked in an environment like big law for a single day in their life. Can paying sticker work out for some people? Sure.

Here's the kicker: getting a better, less risky outcome is NOT that difficult. It's as simple as scoring 90/100 on a multiple choice test that is the same every single year.

The only time where someone can't improve their outcome is if 1) their GPA is sub 3.0 and they won't get a full ride anywhere; and 2) they have maxed out their retakes. If either of these situations apply, then law school just might not be the best choice. I don't see where advising people not to take out 300K for a job they might hate is "conservative"

Your interest can only compound if your payments are less than the accruing interest. At UVA, almost all private sector salaries would see you covering the interest. In the public sector it matters not so long as ibr is available. If ibr goes away, so too will almost every public sector opportunity for T14 grads, other than perhaps Federal government.

Certainly times are different now. When I applied a 99th percentile LSAT could still mean sticker in the T14. I agree that if someone can retake they should. With fewer applicants it's much less competitive and deferring if necessary is a smart move to keep costs manageable.

I disagree that lawyering is shitty. I have a great job, good salary and healthy work life balance. Many of my graduate friends are in the same boat. And many of us would have had fewer opportunities had we not attend a top law school.

[lawschoolbound13]

Fwiw only 30% of grads from IU stayed in Indiana. A lot went to Chicago and new York. Also. IU has traditionally been a top twenty school just dropped last year is all. I'd go to IU on a full ride.

This. This. This.