Yale vs. Harvard vs. Ruby; Family Considerations Forum

[Hand]

I have a ton of faith in her, so I suspect she'd end up with an absolutely killer job in Chicago, but I also know that if she went unemployed for a month or two and was miserable, I'd hate myself for it.

I mean, two months of misery are not good (but really just how miserable are they, when you can use that time to hang out with the infant?) of course, but in the grander scheme of things, I'd think their value is dwarfed by 150K in loans.

[ih8makingscreennames]

Go to Chicago. Sure you may pick up and move 3 years from now, but you won't have the debt. Since you're not going to be able to get them forgiven you don't want that kind of debt making your decisions for you. I am of the opinion that if you were the person who was gonna get the job from Yale, you'll be that person who gets it from Chicago. You have a child that's gonna grow up and do things some day. 220K in the bank isn't nothing.

[WinterComing]

That's a lot of money, particularly when you consider that the jobs you're interested in don't pay well. When you're out of law school and trying to build a life with your family, an extra $220,000 will mean a lot—probably more than you can appreciate at the moment.

I don't know. YLS will give you a better chance for at least some of the jobs you're interested in. How much better? I'm not sure. I suspect that some—not all, but some—of the PI/Gov placement difference between YLS and Chi is due to self selection. I suggest taking up Emma's offer to discuss Chicago over PM.

Congrats on your amazing choices. And good luck.

Responded to your question in a previous comment, but didn't mean to ignore the thrust of your advice (and a few posters above talking about the debt). I think the debt probably weighs on me a little more than the average 0L, since I've been out of college debt-free for the past six years and living a comfortable middle class life in large part due to not having to make student loan payments. Also, before retiring, my dad was a farmer turned banker, and at the dinner table in high school, he would drill into my head that, "The secret to life is compound interest always working for you, never against you." So yeah, the debt would suck.

One financial implication I'm not sure how to weigh: Unlike Big Law, where people either run for their lives or are pushed out after a few years and end up in-house making comparatively less, my wife is in an industry where people tend to get small raises every year throughout their career, and the jump to the equivalent of an in-house job actually pays more. So if she gets this Boston job and her salary goes from $70,000 to $140,000 in her 20s (numbers fudged a little), what impact will that have on our future earnings? Of course, she might get a job paying just as much in Chicago, and then we'd be ahead on both fronts.

But then I come back to the point that, I'm not really in this for the money. And then I think, but I would like to be able to send my daughter to college, and $220,000 is a lot of money. My current mortgage is less than that, and I can sell my house in a pinch if I need. Not so with my law degree.

Monday I was leaning toward Harvard. Yesterday, Yale. This morning, after talking to Emma last night, Chicago. Tomorrow, who knows. Thanks to everyone for your advice. Keep the wisdom coming if you have more to add.

[jbagelboy]

That's a lot of money, particularly when you consider that the jobs you're interested in don't pay well. When you're out of law school and trying to build a life with your family, an extra $220,000 will mean a lot—probably more than you can appreciate at the moment.

I don't know. YLS will give you a better chance for at least some of the jobs you're interested in. How much better? I'm not sure. I suspect that some—not all, but some—of the PI/Gov placement difference between YLS and Chi is due to self selection. I suggest taking up Emma's offer to discuss Chicago over PM.

Congrats on your amazing choices. And good luck.

Responded to your question in a previous comment, but didn't mean to ignore the thrust of your advice (and a few posters above talking about the debt). I think the debt probably weighs on me a little more than the average 0L, since I've been out of college debt-free for the past six years and living a comfortable middle class life in large part due to not having to make student loan payments. Also, before retiring, my dad was a farmer turned banker, and at the dinner table in high school, he would drill into my head that, "The secret to life is compound interest always working for you, never against you." So yeah, the debt would suck.

One financial implication I'm not sure how to weigh: Unlike Big Law, where people either run for their lives or are pushed out after a few years and end up in-house making comparatively less, my wife is in an industry where people tend to get small raises every year throughout their career, and the jump to the equivalent of an in-house job actually pays more. So if she gets this Boston job and her salary goes from $70,000 to $140,000 in her 20s (numbers fudged a little), what impact will that have on our future earnings? Of course, she might get a job paying just as much in Chicago, and then we'd be ahead on both fronts.

But then I come back to the point that, I'm not really in this for the money. And then I think, but I would like to be able to send my daughter to college, and $220,000 is a lot of money. My current mortgage is less than that, and I can sell my house in a pinch if I need not. Not so with my law degree.

Monday I was leaning toward Harvard. Yesterday, Yale. This morning, after talking to Emma last night, Chicago. Tomorrow, who knows. Thanks to everyone for your advice. Keep the wisdom coming if you have more to add.

I like your dad

[James.K.Polk]

I'll chime in for Chicago here (I know we've talked a little, Winter). I'm a 0L, and I have friends who have graduated from each of these law schools.

First off: $220k to "save" is a significant thing for a family, especially one with a new baby. This money does not exist in a vacuum, and while on TLS, we throw around debt (myself included) as if it's a non-negotiable thing, you have a great opportunity here.

There's also the 'worst case' scenario to consider - if in 3 years, you have any sort of (god forbid) medical or otherwise emergency, and you need to not work for a while/wife can't work/you take a 'local' job below your level/jump around/other family issues - you can much more readily do so when you don't have a quarter million dollars of debt on your back.

There's also Chicago's rising stock. In 2006, U Chicago was #15 in rankings for undergrad and #6 in law; both of these have risen (consider the difference between #6 and #4 as it stands now!) and I think will only continue to do so. Not to say that Yale or HLS are going anywhere any time soon, I just think it's a wise move to hook your wagon to the University of Chicago, especially for free.

[wons]

Yale. Chicago for me wouldn't even be in the consideration - for what you want to do I wouldn't think twice about paying for the Yale/Harvard brand. Chicago is a good enough school but you need better than good enough.

As for Yale v. Harvard, again there is where the Yale advantage really comes through. You have to assume you will be middle-of-the-class at Harvard. That would foreclose a lot of what you want to do. (It doesn't foreclose going to work for Cravath, but that doesn't help you.) Being in the muddled-middle at Yale keeps all those doors open.

As for your wife's career, she and you will figure it out. I also have a super-high-achieving wife, and its remarkable how you can make it work, if you need to.

Note: I went to none of these schools, so I have no home-team bias altering my decision. But my life situation 5 years ago was not entirely unlike yours, so hopefully my advice can help.

[fliptrip]

Yale. Chicago for me wouldn't even be in the consideration - for what you want to do I wouldn't think twice about paying for the Yale/Harvard brand. It's a good enough school but you need better than good enough.

Do you mind expanding on this a little bit, wons? The "all the top schools are fungible" take dominates the airwaves around here and it would be nice to read a little more that draws distinctions between YHSCCN.

[Pulsar]

Do you and your wife want to have more kids? Might be a hard question to answer when your daughter is only a newborn (congratulations btw) but I think this is a big factor you haven't discussed yet. Raising multiple kids with law school debt might be harder than raising just one. The bigger you think your family will be, the more I'd lean toward Chicago.

[RZ5646]

Voted Chicago because of the family considerations. Taking on 200k+ in debt at the same time that one is starting a family sounds like a bad idea, and it sounds like a very bad idea if one is doing PI and can't use LRAP.

[WinterComing]

Do you and your wife want to have more kids? Might be a hard question to answer when your daughter is only a newborn (congratulations btw) but I think this is a big factor you haven't discussed yet. Raising multiple kids with law school debt might be harder than raising just one. The bigger you think your family will be, the more I'd lean toward Chicago.

We definitely don't want to have a second child while I'm in law school. After law school, I think we would like to have one more. Two is our definite limit though.

And thanks on the congrats! Hopefully by the time law school starts in the fall, she'll be sleeping through the night.

[James.K.Polk]

Do you and your wife want to have more kids? Might be a hard question to answer when your daughter is only a newborn (congratulations btw) but I think this is a big factor you haven't discussed yet. Raising multiple kids with law school debt might be harder than raising just one. The bigger you think your family will be, the more I'd lean toward Chicago.

We definitely don't want to have a second child while I'm in law school. After law school, I think we would like to have one more. Two is our definite limit though.

And thanks on the congrats! Hopefully by the time law school starts in the fall, she'll be sleeping through the night.

You deserve all the congrats and more, I think.

FWIW, this might be the first thread in TLS history where most 0Ls are telling you to take the full ride and anyone older is urging you to take on debt. What a world.

[jnwa]

Id say consider what your realistic best case, middle case and worst case scenarios are.

Best case scenario(near top of the class) at all the schools is you get the job you want with the caveat that at Chicago you do it while saving 220k.

I dont know the hiring details but if you can get the those competitive positions from median at Yale then theres that. You may be able to do it from Harvard, doubtful from Chicago.

Worst case from all those schools youre probably doing biglaw or a job you dont like but again at Chicago youll be doing it with no debt.

Im naturally risk averse but id say that sometimes these threads focus too much on goals and not enough on likely outcomes. If theres a way of quantifying how likely you are to reach your goals from each school thatd be good. If Yale gives you a 5% chance and Chicago would give you a 2.5% chance then odds are its not happening anyways. If the numbers are 50% and 25% then it makes more sense.

Also, i want your life. Congrats man.

[WinterComing]

What was/is wife's vote, Winter?

Flip, I thought of a better way to answer your question. My wife isn't sure which school to vote for, but her priorities are pretty clear, in the following order:

1. She wants me to get a job that isn't Big Law. She feels very strongly that Big Law would ruin our lives forever (and I agree).
2. She wants us to be able to afford to live (and would generally like to minimize debt).
3. She wants our move to be a neutral or positive factor for her career.
5. She originally wanted to stay in St. Louis, but that ship has sailed. She'd still prefer to stay closer to her family in Illinois, all else equal. But given the choice between the startup job and the family proximity, she'd probably take the job.

ETA: And there's a big gap between priority 1 and priority 2 in terms of importance.

[Pulsar]

Also, i want your life. Congrats man.

He's got a cool dad, a baby girl, a wife who apparently will pick up and move with him, a greyhound, and some options for law school. At least four out of those five things are good=yep, call this one a win.

[fliptrip]

What was/is wife's vote, Winter?

Flip, I thought of a better way to answer your question. My wife isn't sure which school to vote for, but her priorities are pretty clear, in the following order:

1. She wants me to get a job that isn't Big Law. She feels very strongly that Big Law would ruin our lives forever (and I conveniently agree).
2. She wants us to be able to afford to live (and would generally like to minimize debt).
3. She wants our move to be a neutral or positive factor for her career.
5. She originally wanted to stay in St. Louis, but that ship has sailed. She'd still prefer to stay closer to her family in Illinois, all else equal. But given the choice between the startup job and the family proximity, she'd probably take the job.

Maybe Harvard, then? Paying a little to provide the best opportunities for both of your careers seems perfectly reasonable. Making it work in a powerhouse couple requires some creative thinking and willingness to invest when necessary. By maximizing her career trajectory/odds, you increase the chances of making your investment back + more to help you guys out at the point where little winter (let's call her flurry) starts getting really expensive. You also avoid piling on the stress of finding a new job to the already considerable stress of being a new mom and moving to a new place.

Also, I don't know what field she's in, but sounds like she might get a hankering for business school one day. If you go to Harvard, you'll already have the foundation necessary for her to spend two years drinking and networking while earning probably the most valuable credential in higher educationstudying at HBS.

[wons]

Yale. Chicago for me wouldn't even be in the consideration - for what you want to do I wouldn't think twice about paying for the Yale/Harvard brand. It's a good enough school but you need better than good enough.

Do you mind expanding on this a little bit, wons? The "all the top schools are fungible" take dominates the airwaves around here and it would be nice to read a little more that draws distinctions between YHSCCN.

The conventional wisdom here is terrible, simplistic advice. There are things for which HYS offer no meaningful advantage and there are things where HYS offers an advantage that I would personally pay more than the different between full tuition and a Ruby/Hamilton for. It all depends on what you want from your career.

Also, folks underweight outlier outcomes here. Everyone always say "assume you'll be median" - and that's true, even I do it. But you also need to take some sort of weighted average on the high-end. What if youre top quarter or top 10%. At Yale, that puts you in a position to be a feeder clerk, reasonable shot at SCOTUS, it opens up all the doors (DOJ, etc.) he's dragging his damn family across the country for. At Chicago, it gets you a nice spot working at Kirkland or Sidley. But he's saved $300K! <eye roll>

For me, as someone who was gunning 100% for transactional work at a big firm, paying for anything better than CLS was masturbatory. But for my friend who, for example, is now an AUSA, Harvard was clearly the right choice because it got him a Second Circuit clerkship with middling grades, and he knew he wanted to be a prosecutor and ultimately a big firm litigator.

This guy is not shooting for optimal ROI. If he was he wouldn't be working as a journalist today and wouldn't be trying to work for the DOJ on the GS scale. Telling him the Ruby is optimal ROI is missing the point entirely, and it's also like, no shit.

[WinterComing]

Id say consider what your realistic best case, middle case and worst case scenarios are.

Best case scenario(near top of the class) at all the schools is you get the job you want with the caveat that at Chicago you do it while saving 220k.

I dont know the hiring details but if you can get the those competitive positions from median at Yale then theres that. You may be able to do it from Harvard, doubtful from Chicago.

Worst case from all those schools youre probably doing biglaw or a job you dont like but again at Chicago youll be doing it with no debt.

Im naturally risk averse but id say that sometimes these threads focus too much on goals and not enough on likely outcomes. If theres a way of quantifying how likely you are to reach your goals from each school thatd be good. If Yale gives you a 5% chance and Chicago would give you a 2.5% chance then odds are its not happening anyways. If the numbers are 50% and 25% then it makes more sense.

Also, i want your life. Congrats man.

The bolded is a really smart way of looking at this, but I don't know how to quantify it. I mean, I can look at the employment data, but how do I account for self-selection?

I tried really hard to get those answers at Harvard's ASW, but it was tough. One of the advisers told me that of people who were dead set on a federal government job last year, they all got one, and that the DOJ liked Harvard so much that grades were less important. I thought that all seemed questionable, but she's the expert, I suppose. I asked a panel of current students who had clerkships lined up what percentage of students who wanted to clerk were ultimately able to, and they said there was no way of knowing.

Just based on total guess work, I'd estimate my overall chances at maybe 25 or 30 percent from Yale and 10 or 15 percent from Harvard or Chicago. I know I can't predict good grades, but I also probably can't reach my goals without good grades at Chicago or Harvard, and at least decent grades at Yale. I plan to show enough commitment to PI causes at all three schools that hopefully less-prestigious PI can still be my fallback rather than Big Law.

[Pulsar]

Also, folks underweight outlier outcomes here. Everyone always say "assume you'll be median" - and that's true, even I do it. But you also need to take some sort of weighted average on the high-end. What if youre top quarter or top 10%. At Yale, that puts you in a position to be a feeder clerk, reasonable shot at SCOTUS, it opens up all the doors (DOJ, etc.) he's dragging his damn family across the country for. At Chicago, it gets you a nice spot working at Kirkland or Sidley. But he's saved $300K! <eye roll>

I agree with most of your post, but I think it's worth noting that Top 10% of the class at Chi can get where OP wants to go. People from my class are going to the DOJ. They got good grades, suffered Law Review, and got CoA clerkships first, but they did it. There's also people in public defender's offices, Lambda Legal, probably more that I'm forgetting.

Granted, it's probably harder to do a lot of these things from Chi as compared to Y/H. But it's not impossible.

[meowmers]

huge congrats on all these wonderful things

come to hls, pls.

[Pulsar]

Just based on total guess work, I'd estimate my overall chances at maybe 25 or 30 percent from Yale and 10 or 15 percent from Harvard or Chicago. I know I can't predict good grades, but I also probably can't reach my goals without good grades at Chicago or Harvard, and at least decent grades at Yale. I plan to show enough commitment to PI causes at all three schools that hopefully less-prestigious PI can still be my fallback rather than Big Law.

I know I'm about to speak heresy here, but I disagree to some extent with this statement. Law Review and the top of the class often has a visible overrepresentation of Rubies. They usually do a pretty good job of finding people that they think are going to do at least ok. Will you be top 10%? Can't predict that. But I'd be surprised if you didn't end up at least somewhere above average.

[ponderingmeerkat]

Dude, I'm mostly here for solidarity purposes rather than adding much in the way of advice re: law school choices. I also have a high-achieving wife whose career has required balance opposite mine. It's a unique challenge and requires both sides to compromise from time to time.

I'd ultimately suggest there is no wrong or right answer here...all your outcomes will "work out". So, you need to involve her as much as possible in the decision making process. Go with what makes her happy and understand that, absent a crystal ball, you can't predict your future (other than it's going to be fine). So, "if Momma's happy, then everyone's happy".

(As an aside, definitely introduce her to New Haven in person before asking her to decide regarding Yale. My brother went to Yale medical school and his wife struggled with the professional/social/environmental challenges associated with living and working around that city but not being associated with the school. Chicago and Boston have fewer of these concerns.)

[WinterComing]

Just based on total guess work, I'd estimate my overall chances at maybe 25 or 30 percent from Yale and 10 or 15 percent from Harvard or Chicago. I know I can't predict good grades, but I also probably can't reach my goals without good grades at Chicago or Harvard, and at least decent grades at Yale. I plan to show enough commitment to PI causes at all three schools that hopefully less-prestigious PI can still be my fallback rather than Big Law.

I know I'm about to speak heresy here, but I disagree to some extent with this statement. Law Review and the top of the class often has a visible overrepresentation of Rubies. They usually do a pretty good job of finding people that they think are going to do at least ok. Will you be top 10%? Can't predict that. But I'd be surprised if you didn't end up at least somewhere above average.

This is reassuring, though I can hear the knives sharpening.

[Dcc617]

Chicago is much cheaper than Boston, if that means anything. Congrats on your options. They're literally the best possible outcomes that you could have hoped for.

ETA I voted Ruby, by the way. I don't think that you'll have too much trouble getting a good PI job from Chicago, even if it's not DOJ. Which is super unlikely anyway if I understand correctly.

[sanibella]

I vote Harvard or Chicago. I am also married and my spouse is moving with me to law school. These are three amazing schools so it would be easy for me to eliminate the one where my partner wanted to be the least and would have the least opportunity (which makes Yale not even a real option for us actually). Additionally, I would imagine (though I have done no research on this) that New Haven would have the least amount of summer opportunities for you, which would be another consideration for me. Sure, New Haven is close to NYC but it is a longer commute than I would want from my spouse. So much so that their proximity would really not be a factor for me. This, of course, is very personal and you may feel differently.

OTOH, you only go to law school once and it is just for three years. I wouldn't let your wife decide, but I would really make a careful decision together as a family.

[jetsfan1]

I almost would let the wife decide here... All three options are great, and while I'd lean Ruby in your shoes I think going wherever she has the best opportunity makes a lot of sense. The differences between HYC end up being (relatively) marginal and very dependent on how you do there. But the differences for your wife's career sound a lot bigger.

Of course, the x-factor is that you don't really know which would be best for her at this point, which makes things difficult. Is there any chance she would know about the Boston job before the end of the month?

Feel free to disregard all this and come chill with me at Yale though But seriously, your family sounds amazing and congrats on everything!