Cornell vs Michigan vs Berkeley (other schools too) Forum

[xz01]

I guess I'm a little confused. If you wanted to live in the US long term and believed that practicing law was your best way to achieve that, I get it. But how does getting a US law degree and working in a US-based firm eventually lead to you getting back to Belgium? How would that work exactly? Would you be practicing law back in Belgium? I honestly don't know.

Parents moved to Belgium when I was a baby but I'm originally from Southern/Eastern Europe where a US law degree is highly regarded...

ETA: Tls2016: That's why I want to get as much money as I can from Cornell. I've been working for a couple of years so I have savings too. My dad's been working all his life so he'll be able to help (not the entire cost). I've been in the US for five years, never had a problem. I have the CPT program that I can use for the summer associate and then OPT for after graduation, that is guaranteed. I will also focus on firms that are big internationally during OCI.

[Tls2016]

I know you want negotiating advice but your weird admission cycle is worth looking into.
To negotiate, I think you have advice already. You don't have great options but do what you can. I don't see any point for WUSTL if you have to get biglaw to have a chance at staying.

I wasn't joking about getting married.

[Tls2016]

I guess I'm a little confused. If you wanted to live in the US long term and believed that practicing law was your best way to achieve that, I get it. But how does getting a US law degree and working in a US-based firm eventually lead to you getting back to Belgium? How would that work exactly? Would you be practicing law back in Belgium? I honestly don't know.

Parents moved to Belgium when I was a baby but I'm originally from Southern/Eastern Europe where a US law degree is highly regarded...

ETA: Tls2016: That's why I want to get as much money as I can from Cornell. I've been working for a couple of years so I have savings too. My dad's been working all his life so he'll be able to help (not the entire cost). I've been in the US for five years, never had a problem. I have the CPT program that I can use for the summer associate and then OPT for after graduation, that is guaranteed. I will also focus on firms that are big internationally during OCI.

Don't you have to get a firm to hire you for OPT? You will need a job?

[xz01]

I know you want negotiating advice but your weird admission cycle is worth looking into.
To negotiate, I think you have advice already. You don't have great options but do what you can. I don't see any point for WUSTL if you have to get biglaw to have a chance at staying.

I wasn't joking about getting married.

Except for Chicago and Duke, my cycle has been normal. And I think I fucked up my interview with Chicago, so I don't really worry about it.

And yes, I'm thinking about marriage as an option but it's hard to find someone that's worth marrying, you know what I mean?

And no, you can apply for OPT without a job offer.

[Lavitz]

I've been looking at firms websites and it seems as if Cornell doesn't place well in V15 compared to higher ranked schools

Well this is just wrong.

But like everyone else in this thread, still not sure what your planned career path is. Do you mean you want to work in, say, the Brussels office of an international firm long-term? Or just anything law-related in Belgium?

[xz01]

I've been looking at firms websites and it seems as if Cornell doesn't place well in V15 compared to higher ranked schools

Well this is just wrong.

But like everyone else in this thread, still not sure what your planned career path is. Do you mean you want to work in, say, the Brussels office of an international firm long-term? Or just anything law-related in Belgium?

Sorry if I confused people but what I want is:

- get a a biglaw job at some big firm
- stay in the US for a while
- if I can't stay, hopefully transfer to one of their offices like you mentioned
- at some point go back to Kosovo (where I'm from), get into politics

[Tls2016]

I know you want negotiating advice but your weird admission cycle is worth looking into.
To negotiate, I think you have advice already. You don't have great options but do what you can. I don't see any point for WUSTL if you have to get biglaw to have a chance at staying.

I wasn't joking about getting married.

Except for Chicago and Duke, my cycle has been normal. And I think I fucked up my interview with Chicago, so I don't really worry about it.

And yes, I'm thinking about marriage as an option but it's hard to find someone that's worth marrying, you know what I mean?

And no, you can apply for OPT without a job offer.

But if you don't have a job for a year out of school, how will you afford to live and how might you get biglaw? As you know it is almost impossibly difficult to get into biglaw after you have graduated and even during 3L.

I'm concerned about your options if you don't get biglaw here, don't get married and have to return. Will you be able to repay?

I know this is the worst case situation but it is worth thinking about.

[xz01]

I know you want negotiating advice but your weird admission cycle is worth looking into.
To negotiate, I think you have advice already. You don't have great options but do what you can. I don't see any point for WUSTL if you have to get biglaw to have a chance at staying.

I wasn't joking about getting married.

Except for Chicago and Duke, my cycle has been normal. And I think I fucked up my interview with Chicago, so I don't really worry about it.

And yes, I'm thinking about marriage as an option but it's hard to find someone that's worth marrying, you know what I mean?

And no, you can apply for OPT without a job offer.

But if you don't have a job for a year out of school, how will you afford to live and how might you get biglaw? As you know it is almost impossibly difficult to get into biglaw after you have graduated and even during 3L.

I'm concerned about your options if you don't get biglaw here, don't get married and have to return. Will you be able to repay?

I know this is the worst case situation but it is worth thinking about.

Thanks a lot and you're right that it's worth thinking about.

This is also the reason why I'm concerned about going to a lower T14 as opposed to a T6 but Cornell seems to place really well in biglaw, so even if I'm median at Cornell, I will still have a decent chance at biglaw (I believe). I'm also going to apply for the green card lottery but I really think that a prestigious institution will carry its lay prestige in other countries as well (in Kosovo that's certain)

[Tls2016]

Cornell does place well in biglaw. Maybe talk to Cornell and Michigan about their experience with placing foreign students? Nothing to lose getting more info. It shouldn't hurt your scholarship negotiations.

[xz01]

I appreciate your concerns and it is totally justifiable.

As I said earlier though, I've been on TLS for about 6 years now and I've been reading everything I can about foreigners in big law. I think that my knowledge of many languages (4 different languages) coupled with a T14 degree can get me to where I want to be. For example, law schools have special courses that international students can take to be able to work as SA such as this.

In law school, my plan is to get grades as good as I possibly can, use that type of class for my internships during the summer and get a job through OCI.

[fliptrip]

I know you want negotiating advice but your weird admission cycle is worth looking into.
To negotiate, I think you have advice already. You don't have great options but do what you can. I don't see any point for WUSTL if you have to get biglaw to have a chance at staying.

I wasn't joking about getting married.

Except for Chicago and Duke, my cycle has been normal. And I think I fucked up my interview with Chicago, so I don't really worry about it.

And yes, I'm thinking about marriage as an option but it's hard to find someone that's worth marrying, you know what I mean?

And no, you can apply for OPT without a job offer.

But if you don't have a job for a year out of school, how will you afford to live and how might you get biglaw? As you know it is almost impossibly difficult to get into biglaw after you have graduated and even during 3L.

I'm concerned about your options if you don't get biglaw here, don't get married and have to return. Will you be able to repay?

I know this is the worst case situation but it is worth thinking about.

Thanks a lot and you're right that it's worth thinking about.

This is also the reason why I'm concerned about going to a lower T14 as opposed to a T6 but Cornell seems to place really well in biglaw, so even if I'm median at Cornell, I will still have a decent chance at biglaw (I believe). I'm also going to apply for the green card lottery but I really think that a prestigious institution will carry its lay prestige in other countries as well (in Kosovo that's certain)

Apologies to the TLS community in advance, but how in the world does Cornell's lay prestige carry all the way to Kosovo when it can't even get west of the Mississippi River or south of the Mason/Dixon Line?

[xz01]

I know you want negotiating advice but your weird admission cycle is worth looking into.
To negotiate, I think you have advice already. You don't have great options but do what you can. I don't see any point for WUSTL if you have to get biglaw to have a chance at staying.

I wasn't joking about getting married.

Except for Chicago and Duke, my cycle has been normal. And I think I fucked up my interview with Chicago, so I don't really worry about it.

And yes, I'm thinking about marriage as an option but it's hard to find someone that's worth marrying, you know what I mean?

And no, you can apply for OPT without a job offer.

But if you don't have a job for a year out of school, how will you afford to live and how might you get biglaw? As you know it is almost impossibly difficult to get into biglaw after you have graduated and even during 3L.

I'm concerned about your options if you don't get biglaw here, don't get married and have to return. Will you be able to repay?

I know this is the worst case situation but it is worth thinking about.

Thanks a lot and you're right that it's worth thinking about.

This is also the reason why I'm concerned about going to a lower T14 as opposed to a T6 but Cornell seems to place really well in biglaw, so even if I'm median at Cornell, I will still have a decent chance at biglaw (I believe). I'm also going to apply for the green card lottery but I really think that a prestigious institution will carry its lay prestige in other countries as well (in Kosovo that's certain)

Apologies to the TLS community in advance, but how in the world does Cornell's lay prestige carry all the way to Kosovo when it can't even get west of the Mississippi River our south of the Mason/Dixon Line?

Well, the new president of Taiwan went to Cornell... And in all honesty, this plan is in the very long term. In the meantime, I'm hoping to get some experience at well-known law firms.

ETA: I'm also looking into the JD/Maitrise en droit program.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

I know you want negotiating advice but your weird admission cycle is worth looking into.
To negotiate, I think you have advice already. You don't have great options but do what you can. I don't see any point for WUSTL if you have to get biglaw to have a chance at staying.

I wasn't joking about getting married.

Except for Chicago and Duke, my cycle has been normal. And I think I fucked up my interview with Chicago, so I don't really worry about it.

And yes, I'm thinking about marriage as an option but it's hard to find someone that's worth marrying, you know what I mean?

And no, you can apply for OPT without a job offer.

But if you don't have a job for a year out of school, how will you afford to live and how might you get biglaw? As you know it is almost impossibly difficult to get into biglaw after you have graduated and even during 3L.

I'm concerned about your options if you don't get biglaw here, don't get married and have to return. Will you be able to repay?

I know this is the worst case situation but it is worth thinking about.

Thanks a lot and you're right that it's worth thinking about.

This is also the reason why I'm concerned about going to a lower T14 as opposed to a T6 but Cornell seems to place really well in biglaw, so even if I'm median at Cornell, I will still have a decent chance at biglaw (I believe). I'm also going to apply for the green card lottery but I really think that a prestigious institution will carry its lay prestige in other countries as well (in Kosovo that's certain)

Apologies to the TLS community in advance, but how in the world does Cornell's lay prestige carry all the way to Kosovo when it can't even get west of the Mississippi River our south of the Mason/Dixon Line?

Well, the new president of Taiwan went to Cornell... And in all honesty, this plan is in the very long term. In the meantime, I'm hoping to get some experience at well-known law firms.

ETA: I'm also looking into the JD/Maitrise en droit program.

That doesn't mean the average Taiwanese person knows what Cornell is. My understanding for Taiwan is that they know Harvard/Stanford/Yale/Berkeley...

Also Cornell doesn't have lay prestige outside of the East Coast. I'm from the West Coast and people regularly choose lower ranked schools like UCLA/USC over Cornell...

Not to be rude, but it doesn't sound like you have realistic goals or know what you're really getting into. I'm not convinced you actually want to be a practicing lawyer.

[oldfort]

Cornell is a well known name in Asia, even more so than other higher ranking schools, both for UG and professional schools. Not many people have heard of Duke, NU or UVA. One of Taiwan's presidents went to Cornell Aggie school many years ago, and now the current president also graduated from Cornell.

I am lurking here on behalf of my kid. She is also trying to decide which law school to attend. Her options are very similar to OP's.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

-

[fliptrip]

I, for one, am thrilled that our TLS lay prestige debate has gone international.

[Tls2016]

I appreciate your concerns and it is totally justifiable.

As I said earlier though, I've been on TLS for about 6 years now and I've been reading everything I can about foreigners in big law. I think that my knowledge of many languages (4 different languages) coupled with a T14 degree can get me to where I want to be. For example, law schools have special courses that international students can take to be able to work as SA such as this.

In law school, my plan is to get grades as good as I possibly can, use that type of class for my internships during the summer and get a job through OCI.

Even for that class you need an internship. Can you live without a paying job for 1L summer? Will your loans cover that summer class?

Does this apply to a SA job for 2L? I guess it does because it applies to private firm jobs where you will be paid. (Which is great for you, though confusing to me.)

I'm going to suggest again that you contact the professor who teaches that program and see what experiences they have had with placements.

If you can't get a H1B visa can you get work to repay your parents after a year of experience in the US?

Would getting US citizenship (or a green card )impact your desire for possible politics there down the road? I know in some countries it matters.

As you can guess my primary concern for you is that you can stay and work in the US long enough to repay your debt and get a career started. You have a bigger risk than Anerican students or green card holders. It used to be easy for lawyers to get H1B visas but not anymore. I'm certain you know more about visas than I do.

I think you are right about a US law degree being recognized in Belguim and Kosovo.
PS. We know Kosovo isn't in Asia.

[Tls2016]

I know you want negotiating advice but your weird admission cycle is worth looking into.
To negotiate, I think you have advice already. You don't have great options but do what you can. I don't see any point for WUSTL if you have to get biglaw to have a chance at staying.

I wasn't joking about getting married.

Except for Chicago and Duke, my cycle has been normal. And I think I fucked up my interview with Chicago, so I don't really worry about it.

And yes, I'm thinking about marriage as an option but it's hard to find someone that's worth marrying, you know what I mean?

And no, you can apply for OPT without a job offer.

But if you don't have a job for a year out of school, how will you afford to live and how might you get biglaw? As you know it is almost impossibly difficult to get into biglaw after you have graduated and even during 3L.

I'm concerned about your options if you don't get biglaw here, don't get married and have to return. Will you be able to repay?

I know this is the worst case situation but it is worth thinking about.

Thanks a lot and you're right that it's worth thinking about.

This is also the reason why I'm concerned about going to a lower T14 as opposed to a T6 but Cornell seems to place really well in biglaw, so even if I'm median at Cornell, I will still have a decent chance at biglaw (I believe). I'm also going to apply for the green card lottery but I really think that a prestigious institution will carry its lay prestige in other countries as well (in Kosovo that's certain)

Apologies to the TLS community in advance, but how in the world does Cornell's lay prestige carry all the way to Kosovo when it can't even get west of the Mississippi River or south of the Mason/Dixon Line?

You don't see the difference in those two things? A US law degree from a top school in a country where those degrees are uncommon vs locals protecting their local schools and grads?

[hangingtree]

I've been looking at firms websites and it seems as if Cornell doesn't place well in V15 compared to higher ranked schools

Well this is just wrong.

But like everyone else in this thread, still not sure what your planned career path is. Do you mean you want to work in, say, the Brussels office of an international firm long-term? Or just anything law-related in Belgium?

Sorry if I confused people but what I want is:

- get a a biglaw job at some big firm
- stay in the US for a while
- if I can't stay, hopefully transfer to one of their offices like you mentioned
- at some point go back to Kosovo (where I'm from), get into politics

A few thoughts:

1) Cornell places well but not too well outside of NY. Michigan is the most national school, and thus has the most portable degree, but the lack of a big home market hurts its employment stats to the extent that it is not a whole lot better than Cornell. Berkeley at least provides you equal employment opportunities than Michigan, maybe better.

2) If you want biglaw in Belgium relying only on your JD you probably need to focus in antitrust/competition law. From this perspective, Michigan is probably best. Most antitrust work is done in D.C. and Michigan probably places best there, if only due to proximity. Even if Berkeley places equally well, from what I understand Michigan has an outstanding/inspiring antitrust faculty. I spoke with a lot of Michigan kids interested in antitrust last summer.

3) Even if your long-term goal is politics, your putting way too much weight on cachet. People will (quite understandably) have simple thoughts when it comes to where you went to law school, "seems like a good school" and "not Harvard." This shouldn't be a factor in your decision if these three are your only choices. If you must consider it, putting aside regional differences in reputation: among the older generation nationally it is Michigan>Berkeley>>>>Cornell; younger generation nationally it is Berkeley/Michigan>>Cornell; internationally it totally depends on whether that place has any famous people who went to any of those three schools; and Europe it is probably Berkeley>Michigan>Cornell.

[Tls2016]

I've been looking at firms websites and it seems as if Cornell doesn't place well in V15 compared to higher ranked schools

Well this is just wrong.

But like everyone else in this thread, still not sure what your planned career path is. Do you mean you want to work in, say, the Brussels office of an international firm long-term? Or just anything law-related in Belgium?

Sorry if I confused people but what I want is:

- get a a biglaw job at some big firm
- stay in the US for a while
- if I can't stay, hopefully transfer to one of their offices like you mentioned
- at some point go back to Kosovo (where I'm from), get into politics

A few thoughts:

1) Cornell places well but not too well outside of NY. Michigan is the most national school, and thus has the most portable degree, but the lack of a big home market hurts its employment stats to the extent that it is not a whole lot better than Cornell. Berkeley at least provides you equal employment opportunities than Michigan, maybe better.

2) If you want biglaw in Belgium relying only on your JD you probably need to focus in antitrust/competition law. From this perspective, Michigan is probably best. Most antitrust work is done in D.C. and Michigan probably places best there, if only due to proximity. Even if Berkeley places equally well, from what I understand Michigan has an outstanding/inspiring antitrust faculty. I spoke with a lot of Michigan kids interested in antitrust last summer.

3) Even if your long-term goal is politics, your putting way too much weight on cachet. People will (quite understandably) have simple thoughts when it comes to where you went to law school, "seems like a good school" and "not Harvard." This shouldn't be a factor in your decision if these three are your only choices. If you must consider it, putting aside regional differences in reputation: among the older generation nationally it is Michigan>Berkeley>>>>Cornell; younger generation nationally it is Berkeley/Michigan>>Cornell; internationally it totally depends on whether that place has any famous people who went to any of those three schools; and Europe it is probably Berkeley>Michigan>Cornell.

There is no way OP or anyone who is debt financing law should pay sticker at Michigan.

[fliptrip]

OP has $90k @ Mich

[xz01]

I've been looking at firms websites and it seems as if Cornell doesn't place well in V15 compared to higher ranked schools

Well this is just wrong.

But like everyone else in this thread, still not sure what your planned career path is. Do you mean you want to work in, say, the Brussels office of an international firm long-term? Or just anything law-related in Belgium?

Sorry if I confused people but what I want is:

- get a a biglaw job at some big firm
- stay in the US for a while
- if I can't stay, hopefully transfer to one of their offices like you mentioned
- at some point go back to Kosovo (where I'm from), get into politics

A few thoughts:

1) Cornell places well but not too well outside of NY. Michigan is the most national school, and thus has the most portable degree, but the lack of a big home market hurts its employment stats to the extent that it is not a whole lot better than Cornell. Berkeley at least provides you equal employment opportunities than Michigan, maybe better.

2) If you want biglaw in Belgium relying only on your JD you probably need to focus in antitrust/competition law. From this perspective, Michigan is probably best. Most antitrust work is done in D.C. and Michigan probably places best there, if only due to proximity. Even if Berkeley places equally well, from what I understand Michigan has an outstanding/inspiring antitrust faculty. I spoke with a lot of Michigan kids interested in antitrust last summer.

3) Even if your long-term goal is politics, your putting way too much weight on cachet. People will (quite understandably) have simple thoughts when it comes to where you went to law school, "seems like a good school" and "not Harvard." This shouldn't be a factor in your decision if these three are your only choices. If you must consider it, putting aside regional differences in reputation: among the older generation nationally it is Michigan>Berkeley>>>>Cornell; younger generation nationally it is Berkeley/Michigan>>Cornell; internationally it totally depends on whether that place has any famous people who went to any of those three schools; and Europe it is probably Berkeley>Michigan>Cornell.

Thanks for the info; that was the kind of advice I was looking for and not some kind of existential debate about whether I want to be a lawyer and why.

I want to stay in NYC (been there for 5 years) so Cornell would be the better choice; however, thanks for pointing out that Michigan is better at the kind of law I should be focusing on. Does it really matter though? I would be learning most of what I need by practicing at the law firms...

[GoesWithTheTerritory]

As a foreigner, you will have a harder time landing biglaw. I had foreign classmates who ended up in biglaw, but they tended to be top of the class and some clerked for the COA. It's just more annoying for a US firm to sponsor a foreigner when there are tons of qualified US citizens.

If your classmates clerked, they must have been U.S. citizens, since otherwise it's no bueno on the clerkship front (except for Hawaii).

And except for Alaska apparently. But I think they fit description number 4 below (lawful permanent resident...)

Current appropriations law prohibits the use of appropriated funds to pay the compensation of any employee of the U.S. federal government where the duty location is in the continental U.S. unless such person:

is a U.S. citizen;
is a person who owes allegiance to the U.S. (i.e., nationals of American Samoa, Swains Island, and the Northern Mariana Islands, and nationals who meet other requirements described in 8 U.S.C. 1408);
is a person admitted as a refugee or granted asylum who has filed a declaration of intention to become a lawful permanent resident and then a citizen when eligible; or
is a lawful permanent resident who is seeking citizenship as outlined in 8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3)(B).

https://oscar.uscourts.gov/citizenship_requirements

Could be one of the territories too. There is an Article III district court in Puerto Rico and a 1st Circuit judge also sits there. In addition there are Article IV federal district courts in the Virgin Islands, Northern Mariana Islands, and Guam.

[michlaw]

Michigan is the best of these choices. Pretty much on par with Cornell in terms of international reputation. They have done a great job reducing class size to maintain standards. With a top 10 endowment they can take a long term view. Most of the faculty is excellent. Enjoyable environment (as law school goes) and top notch facilities.

[James.K.Polk]

LOL. This dude is underperforming his numbers. He got the WL at Duke and Chicago...he should have been in.

Maybe he had really shit prior LSAT scores? I know supposedly highest scores matter, but.......

FWIW, I think these charts are immensely unrepresentative. [See Edit] Like completely different from what happened.

Even disregarding that, I think there is some underperforming, but a WL at Chicago with a 168 is far from surprising.


Edit: Nevermind. I realized I'm literally the only data point at this range, so it's not really useful. It was just confused by dates. Here's the real chart, which is only me.